Make Random Veteran great again (and leave Normal to newbies)

Saphayla

Hello.

I'd like to talk about high level people (or people who with low level characters but good gamesense, champion points and equipment) who frequent Random Normal dungeons. I think they cause trouble, because they make an already easy experience too easy. What I mean is that:
1. They often deal a lot more damage than their low-level counterparts, so many enemies are dead before the newbies have a chance to learn and experience all their attacks
2. They know they can rush in and survive without problems, so they do, which makes the tank's job harder. I know, this rarely ends badly, but I believe that the purpose of Normal Dungeons is to teach players the mechanics and roles, and rushing players prevent that.
3. Foes die so quickly, many healers have hardly anything to do, so they either get bored of healing, or stick around long enough to be overwhelmed by Veteran.

I've been trying to learn tanking for a while. I have to get aggro on enemies and control them, either by taunting or immobilizing, but it's damn hard when every other person I get paired with charges first without waiting for the tank, and many of them are high level players

So, how do we do that? By making Random Veteran interesting. Right now, you have a choice to either do an easy dungeon for a reward, or do the same dungeon with quadrupled difficulty for the exact same reward. There's absolutely no incentive to try Random Veteran, and so they choose Random Normal. Maybe if Random Veteran had 50% higher rewards, or if players who reached level 50 were getting reduced XP from Random Normal, or if you had an Undaunted quest to do a Random Veteran once a day, or if pledges only counted on Veteran dungeons... something should be done to make Random Veteran rewarding and meaningful, which would also help new players, by reducing the amount of overpowered and/or hasty players they might be paired with.

Bellamy

Honestly, I think that a lot of the issue with the Random Veteran dungeons for me is that there's no distinction between the base-game vet dungeons, and the DLC ones.

I have never hit the Random Veteran button to this day, even though I know I can confidently run any non-DLC vet dungeon - and that is because I know that if I queued into, say, veteran Scalecaller Peak, I would get destroyed and probably so would the rest of my PUG. Even PUGing veteran White Gold Tower the one time I decided to try for the purple jewelry took two and a half hours and we went through six dps that kept leaving.

Meanwhile, veteran Fungal Grotto I? Doesn't require all that much more time or effort from me than the normal DLC dungeons, and I would PUG it gladly. I would very, very much like it if I could hit 'random base game vet' as a distinct button from the random vet dungeon pool that includes the likes of Fang Lair.

I will say that it would be nice to get a more tangible difference in reward from doing the pledges on vet, though, because there's a distinct difference of difficulty between normal, vet, and vet hard mode for some of the dungeons that doesn't feel like it's quite adequately reflected by the key/geode rewards. Maybe make it 1-2-3 keys respectively, instead of 1-1-2, and some more xp for random vet compared to random normal? Otherwise, yes, there is not much incentive.

Saphayla

Bellamy wrote: »

Honestly, I think that a lot of the issue with the Random Veteran dungeons for me is that there's no distinction between the base-game vet dungeons, and the DLC ones.

Oh yes. I've been trying to do Random Veteran on my main character, but I keep getting queued into Veteran Scalecaller Peak, even though there are like 50 dungeons in the game and it's one of maybe 7 I don't want to do.

PlagueSD

Saphayla wrote: »

Hello.

Right now, you have a choice to either do an easy dungeon for a reward, or do the same dungeon with quadrupled difficulty for the exact same reward.

Umm, not quite. Monster set helms ONLY drop in Veteran dungeons. Also, if you want purple jewelry, you'll need to run Veteran level. But if you already have your Monster helm and jewelry (soon to be moot with jewel crafting) there's no real reason to actually run a veteran level dungeon.

What they need to do is actually make the geodes better. 90% of the time I get the same amount of crystals from a green, blue, and purple geode...1 crystal. This should NEVER happen. We should have the following rewards from geodes.

Reg Dungeon:
Green Geode: 1-3 crystals

Veteran Dungeon:
Blue Geode: 3-5 crystals

Veteran (hard mode) Dungeon:
Purple Geode: 7-10 crystals


I agree with you. Currently, there is no reason to run a "harder" dungeon when there is almost no difference in rewards.

CelestialSlayer

Don't you get better gear from veteran. Also what do you consider a veteran player? I'm cp 298 and I still do normal as I want to learn the mechanics properly.

I will move onto veteran soon, but normal is good fun with some people as you can help them learn if you aren't an elitist. I always wait for people and respect those who are doing the quest for the first time. But I've felt rushed by people in the past when I'm doing a quest and once I didn't get to finish it as the group disbanded before I could finish the quest.

Saphayla

PlagueSD wrote: »

Umm, not quite. Monster set helms ONLY drop in Veteran dungeons. Also, if you want purple jewelry, you'll need to run Veteran level. But if you already have your Monster helm and jewelry (soon to be moot with jewel crafting) there's no real reason to actually run a veteran level dungeon.

Most people aren't looking for a monster helm, they're looking for the monster helm they want, so they'll likely be farming a specific dungeon. As for Jewelry, well, you said yourself - it's about to be irrelevant.

CelestialSlayer wrote: »

Don't you get better gear from veteran. Also what do you consider a veteran player? I'm cp 298 and I still do normal as I want to learn the mechanics properly.

You get purple quality items, saving 400-1200 gold on purple materials on items you likely wouldn't use, anyway.

As for who I consider a veteran player: I'd say it's people with CP 160 or above. Not a true veteran of the game, but has been playing for long enough to know basic gameplay. Sure, it's good to do normal a couple times before tackling veteran, especially with DLC dungeons, but that just supports my point that Normal is for learning the mechanics, not for people who've done the dungeon 200 times and won't let the level 10 DPS talk to the quest giver in peace for 5 seconds without getting into a fight

Bellamy

@CelestialSlayer @PlagueSD

You do get better gear from vet mode, but I think the issue is that anybody farming for gear isn't going to be doing so using the random dungeon function! So that's an incentive to do vet dungeons, but not to use the Random Veteran function.

wsmith97ub17_ESO

Once per day, i must endure pve in this game for the xp.

Then i get to do what i enjoy, pvp.

I think many people just need the daily xp boost, then move on.

witchdoctor

Saphayla wrote: »

As for Jewelry, well, you said yourself - it's about to be irrelevant.

Well, the forums are assuming that.

JC may only be for crafted sets ... may not be able to improve dropped jewels.

Saphayla

CelestialSlayer wrote: »

I will move onto veteran soon, but normal is good fun with some people as you can help them learn if you aren't an elitist. I always wait for people and respect those who are doing the quest for the first time. But I've felt rushed by people in the past when I'm doing a quest and once I didn't get to finish it as the group disbanded before I could finish the quest.

And it's great that you do, keep it up! But people like us are a minority, most people rush without care for others. Seriously, I was doing White-Gold Tower once as a healer and had to go AFK for about 1 minute (said so in chat), and when I came back, my group engaged the next boss. Vast majority of groups I'm assigned with rush from enemy to enemy, leaving no time to talk, explore and look around.

jssriot

They really do need to remove dlc dungeons from the random rotation. I would gladly do random vet if they did. It's such a simple QoL change ZOS could make but despite all of us who have been begging them to do it, they haven't.

beetleklee

I think random vet needs to award more EXP, and give better rewards. Right now they're both the same and it's just easier and faster to run a random normal and not have the risk of getting the vet DLCs. No point in random vet really, there's no incentive.

Saphayla

Reading my own responses, you might get the idea that I'm bashing on experienced players, as if they were elitists or something, but here's the thing: I completely understand that you've done a particular dungeon 50-100 times and just want to get it done for the daily reward, I do! But I also understand that many new players might feel pressured by you. I kind of am a new player when I queue as a tank, because, while I have plenty of experience healing, I'm a newbie tank, so I need normal dungeons to train. Queuing for Random Veteran won't change your life much, but it might make the life of new players better. If there was an incentive to do Random Veteran, this thread wouldn't exist

witchdoctor

Part of the problem is, as you said OP, that many have already done these countless times, and just want their keys.

In addition, a ... percentage ... of the player base doesn't have the skill and/or desire to competently do vet dungeons.

If vet was made more 'attractive,' then it would become more difficult to do a random vet than it already is!

I hear you, though. In my experience, as I level new alts, I find almost all will give me a minute to turn quests in (or accommodate for those dungeons with a word-y bit at the mid-point [looking at you, DC1]).

It can be tough trying to tank a normal dungeon. I'd advise you to not bother with trash, and just tank the bosses, when you encounter the situation where a high-level/high-CP player is not giving you the chance to do your role.

When I am on my high-level DPS, I do first give the tank a go. If it becomes apparent they aren't one, then, gloves are off.

temjiu

Saphayla wrote: »

Reading my own responses, you might get the idea that I'm bashing on experienced players, as if they were elitists or something, but here's the thing: I completely understand that you've done a particular dungeon 50-100 times and just want to get it done for the daily reward, I do! But I also understand that many new players might feel pressured by you. I kind of am a new player when I queue as a tank, because, while I have plenty of experience healing, I'm a newbie tank, so I need normal dungeons to train. Queuing for Random Veteran won't change your life much, but it might make the life of new players better. If there was an incentive to do Random Veteran, this thread wouldn't exist

Totally agree. It's general human nature...why do something hard, when doing something easy nets the same results? Any MMO I've played in the past that DIDN'T give better incentives for harder content had harder content that was a graveyard. No matter what our intentions are, Most players are motivated in the end by rewards...it's one of the top reasons we play games, the other 2 top things being competition and social aspects.

And with how this game is currently designed, having tiered lockouts is almost impossible. so incentives has to be the way to go. I agree with the principle of better rewards from higher tier crystal clusters, in addition to more XP, and possibly even bigger rewards...changes at an XP scroll, or perhaps rare motifs and such. Good example is Maelstrom weapons. It's a big reason people run trials. if they started giving those out on normal level content, Trials would almost disappear.

victoriana-blue

Yep, I totally agree that the random normal queue is borked. It doesn't help new players learn anything except that they "need" to do l33t deeps and skip mechanics, and it makes the jump from normal to vet that much harder. (Wait, the water kills you? Standing outside the circle kills you? Falling from a height kills you? Well I never.) And feeling useless in a run because things are dead before you get there is awful.

I've complained more than a few times that it makes tanking & healing vet stuff harder too: a lot of people don't learn what a good tank & healer bring to a run, because dedicated support isn't needed in most normal runs, let alone learn how to play with support. Let the tank pull ffs.

Better rewards on random vets would be a good thing, but I think we need some basic filters on Group Finder:
- that you're looking for normal, vet, or vet HM
- base game and/or DLC (giving an option beyond "don't sub/buy the dlc")
- speed run and/or play through
And when you enter a dungeon you'd get a center-screen announcement of the kind of group you were put into. Those categories are still really broad, so it shouldn't make the queue any worse than it already is.

It would cut down on the conflicts in-group and on-forum, because it'd help group people according to what they want to do instead of tossing random people with random goals into random groups and expecting things to go well.

For this part specifically:

Saphayla wrote: »

I've been trying to learn tanking for a while. I have to get aggro on enemies and control them, either by taunting or immobilizing, but it's damn hard when every other person I get paired with charges first without waiting for the tank, and many of them are high level players.

I ended up forming guild groups to learn how to tank & heal. It wasn't worth the aggravation - to me trying to learn, and to the high-level person who wants the dungeon over with - to run in random normals. Lots of people enjoy playing the mechanics and/or helping others, so it's worth a shot. (Zone chat works too.)

It goes against the point of the random queue, I know, but it was the best option I had.

Doctordarkspawn

Making Random Vet great again would require a playerbase that isn't toxic, elitist, and is willing to teach.

And that seems unlikely to happen.

troomar

Normal dungeons should be 1-49 only, veteran 50+ only

OR

Daily reward from normal dungeon including bonus XP should be given only to 1-49 levels.

witchdoctor

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Making Random Vet great again would require a playerbase that isn't toxic, elitist, and is willing to teach.

No offense, but your post is a classic example of 'mileage may vary.'

I too am on NA/PC and find the community quite decent.

Aurielle

Just start queuing into the easy base game vet dungeons if you want to learn how to tank, because it's pointless to try on normal mode. Vet dungeons are more forgiving to tank than you might think --especially if you've already done them on other characters/roles. Tanking dungeons in this game isn't difficult at all. Just taunt the boss, block heavy telegraphed attacks (no need to permablock), and CC the trash. If you screw up a few times, so what? Just learn from your mistakes and try harder next time. Getting kicked from a dungeon by random strangers isn't a big deal.

I like it that random vet dungeons don't offer better rewards. I don't have time to run random vets on top of pledges... Being able to knock out the normal in ten minutes on each character is a godsend.

AzraelKrieg

Just let people do whatever content they want. If a vet player wants to do a normal dungeon let them do it. Maybe they don't have the time to slog it through a vet dungeon with a pug and just want an easy key.

Yinmaigao

Here is my (totally biased) 2 cents.

When I queue random normal on my toons that I am just crushing through for the quick xp, I will see how the group dynamic is for up to the first boss.

I don't care about level, experience, or DPS. If they are trying (i.e. tank taunting, healer healing, dps doing more than bunny hop bow light attacks), I let them practice their roles without rushing anything.

If they make no effort to try, or are "fake tank/heals", I offer assistance/suggestions 2 times. After that, then they forfeit their right to practice, and I proceed to pull/solo the dungeon at my pace.

Nothing personal, just business.

ccfeeling

Don't Pug if u have limited play time

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

In a pug earlier today on vet VoM was a cp 50 with 13k hp bless his soul, must've died at least 20 times, was marked down as a dps and he was doing under 5k dps.

The other pug members and I managed to pull him through the HM, think he was like cp 60 odd at the end

phaneub17_ESO

I would run random vet dungeons if I didn't keep getting the Pledge ones and people wanting to do the Hard mode to get their extra key. The ones with very specific requirements are the worst, to if you screw up before killing the boss they INSIST on wiping and starting over. You don't get that problem with running random normal dungeons, its just kill the boss and go. I'm doing this across 15 characters, I just want a fast run and move on to the next character.

Diora

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Just let people do whatever content they want. If a vet player wants to do a normal dungeon let them do it. Maybe they don't have the time to slog it through a vet dungeon with a pug and just want an easy key.

Let's make a deal. Let vet players do this....BUT vet players don't whine and complain and call the tank or healer in a vet pledge "bad" because they've never had a chance to learn how to do it. Deal?

Turelus

Personally I think the issue is some people just have bad social skills and don't know how to play well with others.

That's just my thoughts though.

Schemering

I agree with you there should be done something. Either access to veteran dungeons should rely on a certain amount of achievements or cp level (a system i dont like) or veteran dungeons should be made slightly easier with adding a harder version vet XL for the teams that now do veteran dungeons too easy. I did the new 2 dungeons on vet with a random group and within a week i hade the speed achievements bcs some groups are so powerful its easy; other groups are impossible to do it with. The difference atm is too big

Turelus

Schemering wrote: »

I agree with you there should be done something. Either access to veteran dungeons should rely on a certain amount of achievements or cp level (a system i dont like) or veteran dungeons should be made slightly easier with adding a harder version vet XL for the teams that now do veteran dungeons too easy. I did the new 2 dungeons on vet with a random group and within a week i hade the speed achievements bcs some groups are so powerful its easy; other groups are impossible to do it with. The difference atm is too big

We already see people complaining it takes DPS too long to find groups, if we limit the pool of players even more it's just going to get worse.
Not only do you need to find one of those rare and elusive tanks, you now need to find a rare and elusive tank which has specific requirements to match you to the dungeon.

The last update they did was fine in balancing who could access what content. There is also always the option for pre-made groups via zone or guilds for those who want an experience to match their needs.

AzraelKrieg

Diora wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Just let people do whatever content they want. If a vet player wants to do a normal dungeon let them do it. Maybe they don't have the time to slog it through a vet dungeon with a pug and just want an easy key.

Let's make a deal. Let vet players do this....BUT vet players don't whine and complain and call the tank or healer in a vet pledge "bad" because they've never had a chance to learn how to do it. Deal?

I'd say deal but there is a good chance this won't happen. Crap healers is why I learned to heal. I'm now the primary healer for the trials guild I'm in. I didn't learn to do it from anyone. I learned by actually doing it.

EvilCroc

Veteran players should not be able to queue for normal dungeons.