Spell Penetration

Shantu

In my ever-enduring quest to improve my DSP I keep reading on how Spell Penetration is so important and that it is good to get as close to 18.2K as possible. I'm hoping some of you might offer some enlightenment in regard to how to do that as I have no idea. Here's what I look like now:



I know that putting CP points into Spell Erosion adds some, but even if drastically reduce points in Elfborn and Elemental Expert (which I doubt is a good idea) and pour 100 points into Spell Erosion that will only up my 7822 penetration by 2371 to 10193. Currently, the 32 CP in Spell Erosion bumps it up 2838 + 4884 for the light armor passive to 7722. Superstar says I have 7822 so I'm getting another 100 from somewhere. But to get close to 18.k? I don't see how one could possibly come even close. What am I missing?

Asardes

Group support:
Alkosh = 3K
Crusher enchant w Torug = 2.7K
Minor Breach from Power of the Light = 1.3K

Those should be available in trial groups. For solo or less optimized groups you could use Lover mundus that adds 4.2K and/or Spinner's Garment as one of your set, which adds another 3.4K.

Lynx7386

You don't actually need 18.2k

Enemies in dungeons and trials have 18.2k resistance, but you need to also take into account debuffs applied to the enemy. Major breach reduces spell resist by nearly 5.5k. Destruction staff abilities ignore up to 1.8k resist on those targets. Minor breach adds something like 1.5k. Light armor passives give you about 5k penetration.

Just those sources mean your enemies are only at around 7-8k resists, which is more than covered by champion points and/or a penetration set like spinner's garb.

Shantu

Ok, so you can boost it with gear. Thanks, I missed that. I have a 5 Spinners set (shoulders, sash, 3 rings) that when I add to Juliano's it ups Spell Penetration to 11151. But honestly, I've tested Spinners, Mother's Sorrow, Necropotence, and War Maiden's with Juliano's what feels like a million times on a dummy and I see little, if any, difference it DPS. Is penetration really a matter of concern when compared to spell damage, crit, and total magicka?

Lynx7386

Up to a point (the enemy's resistance cap) penetration is every bit as good as spell damage or max magicka.

In a trial setting you want to be as close to that 18.2k number as possible without going over, but like I said you need to also account for debuffs like major/minor breach.

In most cases you don't really need more than 7-8k spell or physical penetration from your passives, champion points, and gear combined, so don't try to overdo it on pen at the cost of other stats.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

18.2k pen when completely solo may be possible, but it is not practical. It is true that as a general rule, spell pen is your best way to buff damage until you get close to the cap, but there are diminishing returns as you get close. I wouldnt advise anyone building for solo play go much more than about 14-15k, and anyone building for group play go much north of about 10k.

Where to get spell pen:

CP - you can certainly put points here, most people dont go much above 30 in PVE.

Gear - Lots of options here, some are selfish, some are group oriented. The most obvious pen set for spell damage is spinners. Strong in PVP, not great in group PVE play, but certainly viable solo. Alkosh does it for the group, but not viable on a magic damage dealer. Typically, its worn by a tank.

Mundus - Lover gives pen, pretty simple. 4196 with 7/7 gold divines gear.

Light armor passives (4884) - One advantage magic has over stam is that they get pen from their armor passives. This is also why most stamina coordinate Debuff sets in a raid.

Skills - Anything that gives major/minor breach.

Lets take a real life example. Lets say you want to build a DPS character to run in a group. What can you reasonably expect?

Major Breach (5280) - If your group isnt giving this too you, you support is GARBAGE. You get 5280 of pen from major breech. You tank can give it to you with pierce armor (should be up 100% on any boss), your healer can give it to you with ele drain.

Minor Breech (1320) - This really only comes from power of the light (templar skill) in practice. I wont say this will be in every raid you encounter, but most good raids find a way to slot it, either with a stamplar DPS or a healer. This will be there sometimes.

Alkosh (3010) - The best raids have at least player running this set, and often, they have two to make sure the uptime is high. This will be there in a good raid, maybe not in a bad one.

Infused Crusher Glyph (2108, 2740 with torugs pact). Again, this one is on your tank. A tank without an infused crusher glyph is likely a bad tank. You should be able to count on this for the most part.

So lets add those up: 5280+1320+3010+2108 = 11718, which means you only need 6482 self pen to get to the cap. 4884 of that comes from just having 5 pieces of light armor, and everyone has base pen of 100 I believe. Long story short, that in this scenario, you only need to find about 1500 of penetration from other sources (CP, Lover, gear). As you can see, lover becomes overkill in that scenario which is why it's typically not used in a raid, and you only need 16 points in spell erosion to make up the gap. Most builds are going to go over the 16 (25-30 is pretty common) to make up for the downtimes of some of your buffs. You cant count on 100% uptimes, so a little padding is appropriate. Too much padding, and you are forgoing other stats. This is the balance that you neeed to find.

If you run solo, Alkosh, Crusher, Minor Breach are probably out the window, but major breach is still reasonable with ele drain/susceptability and a few other class skills. So you lose 6438 right off the bat. Well, equip lover and you just made up most of it.

TLDR: There are a lot of moving parts when it comes to penetration, and many of them wont show up on your stat sheet. You have to consider all your sources and the realistic uptimes. Flat pen of 18.2k on the character sheet is simply not a realistic goal. Work (with your group) to figure out what is going to be given and what you need to make up. Error on the side of getting close to the cap without going over.

EDIT: In PVE, spinners is just not that great of a set. Yes the penetration is good, but there are so many other ways to get there that dont involve wasting a 5 piece damage set. Even in a place like VMA where you are completely on your own, I wouldnt run it.

Shantu

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Up to a point (the enemy's resistance cap) penetration is every bit as good as spell damage or max magicka.

In a trial setting you want to be as close to that 18.2k number as possible without going over, but like I said you need to also account for debuffs like major/minor breach.

In most cases you don't really need more than 7-8k spell or physical penetration from your passives, champion points, and gear combined, so don't try to overdo it on pen at the cost of other stats.

Thanks. That's kinda what I figured. In working on rotation I found that crit seems to have the most potent effect, while keeping spell damage and magicka as high as possible, of course.

As for trials, my dps suckage will never get me there.

Shantu

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

18.2k pen when completely solo may be possible, but it is not practical. It is true that as a general rule, spell pen is your best way to buff damage until you get close to the cap, but there are diminishing returns as you get close. I wouldnt advise anyone building for solo play go much more than about 14-15k, and anyone building for group play go much north of about 10k.

Where to get spell pen:

CP - you can certainly put points here, most people dont go much above 30 in PVE.

Gear - Lots of options here, some are selfish, some are group oriented. The most obvious pen set for spell damage is spinners. Strong in PVP, not great in group PVE play, but certainly viable solo. Alkosh does it for the group, but not viable on a magic damage dealer. Typically, its worn by a tank.

Mundus - Lover gives pen, pretty simple. 4196 with 7/7 gold divines gear.

Light armor passives (4884) - One advantage magic has over stam is that they get pen from their armor passives. This is also why most stamina coordinate Debuff sets in a raid.

Skills - Anything that gives major/minor breach.

Lets take a real life example. Lets say you want to build a DPS character to run in a group. What can you reasonably expect?

Major Breach (5280) - If your group isnt giving this too you, you support is GARBAGE. You get 5280 of pen from major breech. You tank can give it to you with pierce armor (should be up 100% on any boss), your healer can give it to you with ele drain.

Minor Breech (1320) - This really only comes from power of the light (templar skill) in practice. I wont say this will be in every raid you encounter, but most good raids find a way to slot it, either with a stamplar DPS or a healer. This will be there sometimes.

Alkosh (3010) - The best raids have at least player running this set, and often, they have two to make sure the uptime is high. This will be there in a good raid, maybe not in a bad one.

Infused Crusher Glyph (2108, 2740 with torugs pact). Again, this one is on your tank. A tank without an infused crusher glyph is likely a bad tank. You should be able to count on this for the most part.

So lets add those up: 5280+1320+3010+2108 = 11718, which means you only need 6482 self pen to get to the cap. 4884 of that comes from just having 5 pieces of light armor, and everyone has base pen of 100 I believe. Long story short, that in this scenario, you only need to find about 1500 of penetration from other sources (CP, Lover, gear). As you can see, lover becomes overkill in that scenario which is why it's typically not used in a raid, and you only need 16 points in spell erosion to make up the gap. Most builds are going to go over the 16 (25-30 is pretty common) to make up for the downtimes of some of your buffs.

If you run solo, Alkosh, Crusher, Minor Breach are probably out the window, but major breach is still reasonable with ele drain/susceptability and a few other class skills. So you lose 6438 right off the bat. Well, equip lover and you just made up most of it.

TLDR: There are a lot of moving parts when it comes to penetration. You have to consider all your sources and the realistic uptimes. Flat pen of 18.2k on the character sheet is simply not a realistic goal. Work (with your group) to figure out what is going to be given and what you need to make up. Error on the side of getting close to the cap without going over.

I can see now that penetration is really a complicated sum of many moving parts. Since I'm not really good enough to get into much end game content, looks like I'm fine. Thanks so much!

idk

Yes n the context of PvE since that’s what OP seems to be speaking of.

You get some from 5 pc light armor passives and a good deal from a tank or dps in the group using alkosh.

The rest can be obtained via mundus and CP.

Lynx7386

Its a little easier for magicka builds since light armor gives you a huge chunk of pen. Stamina builds have more sources of penetration overall but it relies more on a group coordinating sets and abilities.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Shantu wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

18.2k pen when completely solo may be possible, but it is not practical. It is true that as a general rule, spell pen is your best way to buff damage until you get close to the cap, but there are diminishing returns as you get close. I wouldnt advise anyone building for solo play go much more than about 14-15k, and anyone building for group play go much north of about 10k.

Where to get spell pen:

CP - you can certainly put points here, most people dont go much above 30 in PVE.

Gear - Lots of options here, some are selfish, some are group oriented. The most obvious pen set for spell damage is spinners. Strong in PVP, not great in group PVE play, but certainly viable solo. Alkosh does it for the group, but not viable on a magic damage dealer. Typically, its worn by a tank.

Mundus - Lover gives pen, pretty simple. 4196 with 7/7 gold divines gear.

Light armor passives (4884) - One advantage magic has over stam is that they get pen from their armor passives. This is also why most stamina coordinate Debuff sets in a raid.

Skills - Anything that gives major/minor breach.

Lets take a real life example. Lets say you want to build a DPS character to run in a group. What can you reasonably expect?

Major Breach (5280) - If your group isnt giving this too you, you support is GARBAGE. You get 5280 of pen from major breech. You tank can give it to you with pierce armor (should be up 100% on any boss), your healer can give it to you with ele drain.

Minor Breech (1320) - This really only comes from power of the light (templar skill) in practice. I wont say this will be in every raid you encounter, but most good raids find a way to slot it, either with a stamplar DPS or a healer. This will be there sometimes.

Alkosh (3010) - The best raids have at least player running this set, and often, they have two to make sure the uptime is high. This will be there in a good raid, maybe not in a bad one.

Infused Crusher Glyph (2108, 2740 with torugs pact). Again, this one is on your tank. A tank without an infused crusher glyph is likely a bad tank. You should be able to count on this for the most part.

So lets add those up: 5280+1320+3010+2108 = 11718, which means you only need 6482 self pen to get to the cap. 4884 of that comes from just having 5 pieces of light armor, and everyone has base pen of 100 I believe. Long story short, that in this scenario, you only need to find about 1500 of penetration from other sources (CP, Lover, gear). As you can see, lover becomes overkill in that scenario which is why it's typically not used in a raid, and you only need 16 points in spell erosion to make up the gap. Most builds are going to go over the 16 (25-30 is pretty common) to make up for the downtimes of some of your buffs.

If you run solo, Alkosh, Crusher, Minor Breach are probably out the window, but major breach is still reasonable with ele drain/susceptability and a few other class skills. So you lose 6438 right off the bat. Well, equip lover and you just made up most of it.

TLDR: There are a lot of moving parts when it comes to penetration. You have to consider all your sources and the realistic uptimes. Flat pen of 18.2k on the character sheet is simply not a realistic goal. Work (with your group) to figure out what is going to be given and what you need to make up. Error on the side of getting close to the cap without going over.

I can see now that penetration is really a complicated sum of many moving parts. Since I'm not really good enough to get into much end game content, looks like I'm fine. Thanks so much!

Yeah, for most stuff, Lover mundus with about 30 points into spell erosion will do the trick. If you are trying to up your DPS on a dummy, make sure you find a source of major breech. Most magic builds can just run ele drain themselves or have a buddy do it for you. Again spinners is not a bad set, I just think that there are better options for most scenarios, even when solo.

WuffyCerulei

As a magicka dps, you don't need to rely on personal spell penetration as much as stam. Your cp allocation and whatnot looks good. Combined with the light armor passive, it all looks good. In most good groups, you'll have an extra 5k penetration from Elemental Drain and/or Puncture. You personally shouldn't have to worry about your spell pen, as tanks and healers should be debuffing the enemies. If your healer isn't running ele drain, kindly ask them to. Not only does it help with spell pen, it gives 300 magicka back every second.

jnelson1182

what are the signs of low penetration? and does it have anything to do with the numbers our resistances are sitting at? I currently play on Xbox1 and to my knowledge there is not stat for our penetration, does anyone know how to find/ figure it out? I'm working on a mag dk dps build using a lot of aoe fire skills with a mix of bsw, and either lich, silks, or julianos & my flame staff is embershirld. I want to make sure I get the most dmg out of my build as possible so if anyone has any tips or ideas definitely lmk