Total Dark

FakeZavos

So whats up with Total Dark exactly? Im on magDK, in themiddle of an enemy raid. Spamming deep breath to stay alive. And then total dark is 5 times on my recap while I didnt use even 1 single target attack? Is this broken, or is this supposed to happen?

MalakithAlamahdi

It's for cast damage skills for as far as i'm aware. So it's supposed to do it. Just CC break before healing.

gabriebe

It's supposed to happen.

danno8

Sounds like you are looking at some old web description.

How Eclipse (Unstable Core, Total Dark) work now is you take a flat amount of damage every time you use an offensive skill.

But you can just CC-break it and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity.

maxjapank

Your DK armor will also dmg you. Your armor returns dmg if attacked. And Eclipse returns that dmg back at you. So If I cast Eclipse on you and use sweeps for 4 attacks, your gonna get hit 4 times before you break free.

I don't get this "break free and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity" as if your getting "free immunity". The fact is that any cc can be broken giving you cc immunity. The difference is that with Eclipse, your not stunned or knocked down, your not losing control of your character. So you don't naturally break free. So most players don't know to break free from Eclipse and they keep on attacking. So yeah. When you have a bubble around you, break free.

Minno

maxjapank wrote: »

Your DK armor will also dmg you. Your armor returns dmg if attacked. And Eclipse returns that dmg back at you. So If I cast Eclipse on you and use sweeps for 4 attacks, your gonna get hit 4 times before you break free.

I don't get this "break free and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity" as if your getting "free immunity". The fact is that any cc can be broken giving you cc immunity. The difference is that with Eclipse, your not stunned or knocked down, your not losing control of your character. So you don't naturally break free. So most players don't know to break free from Eclipse and they keep on attacking. So yeah. When you have a bubble around you, break free.

Unless you can catch a nightblade in the middle of an ambush combo.
https://youtu.be/XqbWb7aFpys

But unstable core needs to be straight up delayed damage. No cc immunity, no redirect DMG, just Sorc curse, but AOE single target cast damage.

Or the bubble can't be broken free from like pre Morrowind when it was decent.

Blobsky

Total Dark deals damage when an opponent deals 'Direct damage'. The initial deep breath damage is direct damage.

It worries me that you main a templar and don't know that.

danno8

maxjapank wrote: »

I don't get this "break free and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity" as if your getting "free immunity". The fact is that any cc can be broken giving you cc immunity. The difference is that with Eclipse, your not stunned or knocked down, your not losing control of your character. So you don't naturally break free. So most players don't know to break free from Eclipse and they keep on attacking. So yeah. When you have a bubble around you, break free.

It's free in that you have no immediate pressure to break it. You MUST break free when you are CC'd with a stun/knockback/fear, or you die.

You don't have to break free with Eclipse since it is essentially another DoT. You get to choose. You can even thrown up a shield or HoT before you decide to break free to help cover the momentary loss of control during the break free animation.

With true CC, your opponent chooses when you have to CC-break, with Eclipse you get to choose. In that way it is a free pass on what kills most people in Cyrodiil; CC-->burst combo.

maxjapank

danno8 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I don't get this "break free and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity" as if your getting "free immunity". The fact is that any cc can be broken giving you cc immunity. The difference is that with Eclipse, your not stunned or knocked down, your not losing control of your character. So you don't naturally break free. So most players don't know to break free from Eclipse and they keep on attacking. So yeah. When you have a bubble around you, break free.

It's free in that you have no immediate pressure to break it. You MUST break free when you are CC'd with a stun/knockback/fear, or you die.

You don't have to break free with Eclipse since it is essentially another DoT. You get to choose. You can even thrown up a shield or HoT before you decide to break free to help cover the momentary loss of control during the break free animation.

With true CC, your opponent chooses when you have to CC-break, with Eclipse you get to choose. In that way it is a free pass on what kills most people in Cyrodiil; CC-->burst combo.

That’s not how you explained it before. And it’s not how most mean when referring to Eclipse. But you misjudge the control Eclipse can have over others. But most do.

raasdal

danno8 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I don't get this "break free and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity" as if your getting "free immunity". The fact is that any cc can be broken giving you cc immunity. The difference is that with Eclipse, your not stunned or knocked down, your not losing control of your character. So you don't naturally break free. So most players don't know to break free from Eclipse and they keep on attacking. So yeah. When you have a bubble around you, break free.

It's free in that you have no immediate pressure to break it. You MUST break free when you are CC'd with a stun/knockback/fear, or you die.

You don't have to break free with Eclipse since it is essentially another DoT. You get to choose. You can even thrown up a shield or HoT before you decide to break free to help cover the momentary loss of control during the break free animation.

With true CC, your opponent chooses when you have to CC-break, with Eclipse you get to choose. In that way it is a free pass on what kills most people in Cyrodiil; CC-->burst combo.

maxjapank wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I don't get this "break free and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity" as if your getting "free immunity". The fact is that any cc can be broken giving you cc immunity. The difference is that with Eclipse, your not stunned or knocked down, your not losing control of your character. So you don't naturally break free. So most players don't know to break free from Eclipse and they keep on attacking. So yeah. When you have a bubble around you, break free.

It's free in that you have no immediate pressure to break it. You MUST break free when you are CC'd with a stun/knockback/fear, or you die.

You don't have to break free with Eclipse since it is essentially another DoT. You get to choose. You can even thrown up a shield or HoT before you decide to break free to help cover the momentary loss of control during the break free animation.

With true CC, your opponent chooses when you have to CC-break, with Eclipse you get to choose. In that way it is a free pass on what kills most people in Cyrodiil; CC-->burst combo.

That’s not how you explained it before. And it’s not how most mean when referring to Eclipse. Fun fact-
Eclipsed players can still be ccd. So I can stop burst from happening with Eclipse. I can still stun you before it expires. So I do have control over my opponent.

You are both right and wrong IMO.

Total Dark is just like DK Wings;

If you are playing against potatoes, who does not know what they are doing, it is totally OP and your enemies will kill themselves like lemmings. With Total Dark, they will just hurdle themselves at you and get killed.

But if you are fighting agains anyone decent, it is a different story. The reason why there are no "OMG NERF THIS" threads on the forums, is exactly because anyone who knows what the skill does, can easily counter it - and indeed it is very often a free CC immunity. When i am being outnumbered, running around a tree to survice, i absolutely LOVE it, when someone casts that on me. I am not currently being offensive, and i can simply break-free to get my immunity, and then know that i can go offensive. And if you do not have any plans to be offensive right away, you can simply ignore it all together, which means your opponent wasted magicka for nought.

maxjapank

raasdal wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I don't get this "break free and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity" as if your getting "free immunity". The fact is that any cc can be broken giving you cc immunity. The difference is that with Eclipse, your not stunned or knocked down, your not losing control of your character. So you don't naturally break free. So most players don't know to break free from Eclipse and they keep on attacking. So yeah. When you have a bubble around you, break free.

It's free in that you have no immediate pressure to break it. You MUST break free when you are CC'd with a stun/knockback/fear, or you die.

You don't have to break free with Eclipse since it is essentially another DoT. You get to choose. You can even thrown up a shield or HoT before you decide to break free to help cover the momentary loss of control during the break free animation.

With true CC, your opponent chooses when you have to CC-break, with Eclipse you get to choose. In that way it is a free pass on what kills most people in Cyrodiil; CC-->burst combo.

maxjapank wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I don't get this "break free and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity" as if your getting "free immunity". The fact is that any cc can be broken giving you cc immunity. The difference is that with Eclipse, your not stunned or knocked down, your not losing control of your character. So you don't naturally break free. So most players don't know to break free from Eclipse and they keep on attacking. So yeah. When you have a bubble around you, break free.

It's free in that you have no immediate pressure to break it. You MUST break free when you are CC'd with a stun/knockback/fear, or you die.

You don't have to break free with Eclipse since it is essentially another DoT. You get to choose. You can even thrown up a shield or HoT before you decide to break free to help cover the momentary loss of control during the break free animation.

With true CC, your opponent chooses when you have to CC-break, with Eclipse you get to choose. In that way it is a free pass on what kills most people in Cyrodiil; CC-->burst combo.

That’s not how you explained it before. And it’s not how most mean when referring to Eclipse. Fun fact-
Eclipsed players can still be ccd. So I can stop burst from happening with Eclipse. I can still stun you before it expires. So I do have control over my opponent.

You are both right and wrong IMO.

Total Dark is just like DK Wings;

If you are playing against potatoes, who does not know what they are doing, it is totally OP and your enemies will kill themselves like lemmings. With Total Dark, they will just hurdle themselves at you and get killed.

But if you are fighting agains anyone decent, it is a different story. The reason why there are no "OMG NERF THIS" threads on the forums, is exactly because anyone who knows what the skill does, can easily counter it - and indeed it is very often a free CC immunity. When i am being outnumbered, running around a tree to survice, i absolutely LOVE it, when someone casts that on me. I am not currently being offensive, and i can simply break-free to get my immunity, and then know that i can go offensive. And if you do not have any plans to be offensive right away, you can simply ignore it all together, which means your opponent wasted magicka for nought.

I use it extensively, on both good and bad players. It’s not a different story. It just takes better timing, the same as any cc does.

Subversus

Blobsky wrote: »

Total Dark deals damage when an opponent deals 'Direct damage'. The initial deep breath damage is direct damage.

It worries me that you main a templar and don't know that.

Ouch

danno8

raasdal wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I don't get this "break free and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity" as if your getting "free immunity". The fact is that any cc can be broken giving you cc immunity. The difference is that with Eclipse, your not stunned or knocked down, your not losing control of your character. So you don't naturally break free. So most players don't know to break free from Eclipse and they keep on attacking. So yeah. When you have a bubble around you, break free.

It's free in that you have no immediate pressure to break it. You MUST break free when you are CC'd with a stun/knockback/fear, or you die.

You don't have to break free with Eclipse since it is essentially another DoT. You get to choose. You can even thrown up a shield or HoT before you decide to break free to help cover the momentary loss of control during the break free animation.

With true CC, your opponent chooses when you have to CC-break, with Eclipse you get to choose. In that way it is a free pass on what kills most people in Cyrodiil; CC-->burst combo.

maxjapank wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I don't get this "break free and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity" as if your getting "free immunity". The fact is that any cc can be broken giving you cc immunity. The difference is that with Eclipse, your not stunned or knocked down, your not losing control of your character. So you don't naturally break free. So most players don't know to break free from Eclipse and they keep on attacking. So yeah. When you have a bubble around you, break free.

It's free in that you have no immediate pressure to break it. You MUST break free when you are CC'd with a stun/knockback/fear, or you die.

You don't have to break free with Eclipse since it is essentially another DoT. You get to choose. You can even thrown up a shield or HoT before you decide to break free to help cover the momentary loss of control during the break free animation.

With true CC, your opponent chooses when you have to CC-break, with Eclipse you get to choose. In that way it is a free pass on what kills most people in Cyrodiil; CC-->burst combo.

That’s not how you explained it before. And it’s not how most mean when referring to Eclipse. Fun fact-
Eclipsed players can still be ccd. So I can stop burst from happening with Eclipse. I can still stun you before it expires. So I do have control over my opponent.

You are both right and wrong IMO.

Total Dark is just like DK Wings;

If you are playing against potatoes, who does not know what they are doing, it is totally OP and your enemies will kill themselves like lemmings. With Total Dark, they will just hurdle themselves at you and get killed.

But if you are fighting agains anyone decent, it is a different story. The reason why there are no "OMG NERF THIS" threads on the forums, is exactly because anyone who knows what the skill does, can easily counter it - and indeed it is very often a free CC immunity. When i am being outnumbered, running around a tree to survice, i absolutely LOVE it, when someone casts that on me. I am not currently being offensive, and i can simply break-free to get my immunity, and then know that i can go offensive. And if you do not have any plans to be offensive right away, you can simply ignore it all together, which means your opponent wasted magicka for nought.

But potatoes will die from anything, so what does it matter how good a skill is against bad players.

How effective it is against a good player is all that matters.

Fossilize is effective against good and bad players, Fear is effective against good and bad players etc. Eclipse is effective only against bad players, good players know exactly how to best counter it, just like in your example.

There was a guy who started a thread 2 weeks ago claiming that Total Dark was ridiculous OP and needed a nerf. The thread got to several pages in length with people noting that you can CC-break it. The OP never came back to the thread after that. It will never be effective against that player again.

At least with Unstable Core morph you get the explosion even on CC-break.

FakeZavos

Blobsky wrote: »

Total Dark deals damage when an opponent deals 'Direct damage'. The initial deep breath damage is direct damage.

It worries me that you main a templar and don't know that.

Since I didnt play templar since, well, ages. And I pretty much stopped playing when 3.3.0 launched (just coming back a bit now) I didnt see it before on my sorc. It probrably happened. But since sorc is mostly single target the dmg from total dark wasnt that interesting. On DK I first noticed how insanely strong it was (if not broken free from)

Minno

danno8 wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I don't get this "break free and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity" as if your getting "free immunity". The fact is that any cc can be broken giving you cc immunity. The difference is that with Eclipse, your not stunned or knocked down, your not losing control of your character. So you don't naturally break free. So most players don't know to break free from Eclipse and they keep on attacking. So yeah. When you have a bubble around you, break free.

It's free in that you have no immediate pressure to break it. You MUST break free when you are CC'd with a stun/knockback/fear, or you die.

You don't have to break free with Eclipse since it is essentially another DoT. You get to choose. You can even thrown up a shield or HoT before you decide to break free to help cover the momentary loss of control during the break free animation.

With true CC, your opponent chooses when you have to CC-break, with Eclipse you get to choose. In that way it is a free pass on what kills most people in Cyrodiil; CC-->burst combo.

maxjapank wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I don't get this "break free and enjoy your 7 seconds of immunity" as if your getting "free immunity". The fact is that any cc can be broken giving you cc immunity. The difference is that with Eclipse, your not stunned or knocked down, your not losing control of your character. So you don't naturally break free. So most players don't know to break free from Eclipse and they keep on attacking. So yeah. When you have a bubble around you, break free.

It's free in that you have no immediate pressure to break it. You MUST break free when you are CC'd with a stun/knockback/fear, or you die.

You don't have to break free with Eclipse since it is essentially another DoT. You get to choose. You can even thrown up a shield or HoT before you decide to break free to help cover the momentary loss of control during the break free animation.

With true CC, your opponent chooses when you have to CC-break, with Eclipse you get to choose. In that way it is a free pass on what kills most people in Cyrodiil; CC-->burst combo.

That’s not how you explained it before. And it’s not how most mean when referring to Eclipse. Fun fact-
Eclipsed players can still be ccd. So I can stop burst from happening with Eclipse. I can still stun you before it expires. So I do have control over my opponent.

You are both right and wrong IMO.

Total Dark is just like DK Wings;

If you are playing against potatoes, who does not know what they are doing, it is totally OP and your enemies will kill themselves like lemmings. With Total Dark, they will just hurdle themselves at you and get killed.

But if you are fighting agains anyone decent, it is a different story. The reason why there are no "OMG NERF THIS" threads on the forums, is exactly because anyone who knows what the skill does, can easily counter it - and indeed it is very often a free CC immunity. When i am being outnumbered, running around a tree to survice, i absolutely LOVE it, when someone casts that on me. I am not currently being offensive, and i can simply break-free to get my immunity, and then know that i can go offensive. And if you do not have any plans to be offensive right away, you can simply ignore it all together, which means your opponent wasted magicka for nought.

But potatoes will die from anything, so what does it matter how good a skill is against bad players.

How effective it is against a good player is all that matters.

Fossilize is effective against good and bad players, Fear is effective against good and bad players etc. Eclipse is effective only against bad players, good players know exactly how to best counter it, just like in your example.

There was a guy who started a thread 2 weeks ago claiming that Total Dark was ridiculous OP and needed a nerf. The thread got to several pages in length with people noting that you can CC-break it. The OP never came back to the thread after that. It will never be effective against that player again.

At least with Unstable Core morph you get the explosion even on CC-break.

Things to change to make Total Dark/Unstable Core competitive (not in order nor all required):
- Total Dark and UC to receive unbreakable bubble then gives CC immunity.
- Total Dark to receive similar UC after-effect treatment except instead of dmg, debuff the enemy since the spell is defensive.
- UC to receive higher burst damage. When a good player CC breaks, I am left with the reduced dmg version of UC from pre-morrowind (though the spell's dmg is unblockable/undodgable now whereas pre-morrowin the dmg was only undodgable.)
- UC to not have cc immunity at all, but also no redirect dmg at all. Make it burst, make it deadly.
- If cc immunity and break-free mechanic is to remain , allow redirect dmg to effect all sources of dmg.
- reduce cost to be closer to 3k mag without need for light armor/breton passives.

Those will help fix the spell. Because of the cc imunity and non-persistent nature of the spell, the enemy has no reason to break free early or leave the spell hanging. Templar should be able to control the conditions of the fight with this spell, but currently cannot.

Feanor

I find it very funny that the Cyrodiil Guard NPCs have all the good skills players once had. Frags that still stun, unbreakable Eclipse, Dragon Blood back to full HP,...