Dire Wolf Summon for Warden (Major Brutality Option)

GrumpyDuckling

Many stamina Wardens run skills that give Major Brutality and have better secondary effects than Bull Netch. The secondary effect of a small stamina return over time on Bull Netch simply isn't as fun or desirable as other skills that grant Major Brutality - so I suggest the following two changes:

1) Tack Major Brutality onto Blue Betty so it gives both Major Sorcery and Major Brutality. Blue Betty restores both stamina and magicka.
(This would allow for current Warden builds to remain basically the same, if they so choose).

2) Replace the Bull Netch morph with a toggled Dire Wolf Summon that grants the caster:
- access to Major Brutality for having the skill slotted
- a Dire Wolf combat pet that respawns after 5 seconds if killed (similar to the way Werewolf dire wolves work if killed in combat)

Reasons to Consider these Two Changes

1) It wouldn't enact much change to current builds that prefer to use a Netch for Major Brutality (they would simply change to Blue Betty).

2) Wardens get a fun skill that would allow for an alternative secondary effect to Major Brutality (a combat Dire Wolf).

3) This could really open up stamina-themed pet builds (Bear + Dire Wolf) albeit at the steep cost of giving up 2 skill slots (Dire Wolf operates as a toggled pet) and 2 ultimate slots (Bear also operates as a toggled pet).

4) A Dire Wolf summoned pet fits perfectly into the Animal Companion theme in the Warden's skill line.

5) The coding for a Dire Wolf summon already exists (see Werewolf Pack Leader morph) so it wouldn't be as tedious as making an entirely new skill.

6) A precedent has been set with the change to Dark Cloak, where one morph of a skill operates differently than the base skill.

7) It would make for a really fun way to play (really, this would be a blast - which is why I've spent so much time thinking this suggestion through as to not change current builds, but merely provide additional options that enhance fun and promote character build diversity).

Edit: Updated on 5/28/18 to tag class reps that I could find.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@KenaPKK
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

Lynx7386

Sorry but I disagree, and that's coming from someone who hates the netch.

The stamina return from bull netch is in no way 'small',especially considering it is free to cast. The fact that it gives major brutality means you can avoid having to use other abilities to get that buff. Also, having to use blue betty to get major brutality would mean its restoring magicka, not stamina, making it less useful for a stamina build.


IMO they should add a wolf (and lion) skin for the bear ultimate for those who want different animals. Id also like to see an owl/crow skin for the netch morphs, since I despise that floating jellyfish

GrumpyDuckling

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Sorry but I disagree, and that's coming from someone who hates the netch.

The stamina return from bull netch is in no way 'small',especially considering it is free to cast. The fact that it gives major brutality means you can avoid having to use other abilities to get that buff. Also, having to use blue betty to get major brutality would mean its restoring magicka, not stamina, making it less useful for a stamina build.


IMO they should add a wolf (and lion) skin for the bear ultimate for those who want different animals. Id also like to see an owl/crow skin for the netch morphs, since I despise that floating jellyfish

If the resource return would actually be an issue, it could be solved by having the Blue Betty restore whichever resource is highest.

Problem solved.

Now you can hop on the Dire Wolf fun train.

Lynx7386

Still don't think this is a necessary change. Wardens aren't sorcs, they should not be fielding an army of animals; one is enough.

Add skins for the bear so it can look like a wolf or lion or whatever, I'm all for that, I just think you're trying to fit in a change that isn't needed and killing a good skill in the process.

GrumpyDuckling

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Still don't think this is a necessary change. Wardens aren't sorcs, they should not be fielding an army of animals; one is enough.

Add skins for the bear so it can look like a wolf or lion or whatever, I'm all for that, I just think you're trying to fit in a change that isn't needed and killing a good skill in the process.

Nothing is getting killed - the skill is still there. Major Brutality is added to Blue Betty and it restores whichever attribute is highest, so I don't know what you're complaining about.

The skill line is called "Animal Companions." I think it would be fun to have more than one actual animal companion who fights by your side. The Dire Wolf suggestion provides options. If you don't want it, then just stick to the betty - no harm done and your character stays exactly the same.

GrumpyDuckling

3/18/18
Updated original post for clarity.

Jarryzzt

Wait, what?

Did someone seriously propose having a skill where one morph grants resource return but another morph grants an extra pet (read: DPS and possible off-tank)?

Hey, I have an idea, let's have a skill where one morph is a stamina execute and the other morph is a magicka steal. Or one where one morph is a damage shield and the other is an AoE DoT. So what if they are completely separate abilities that do widely different things. Balance is easy, right?

---

I am also intrigued by the assertion that Netch is, quote, "meh" (whatever that means) because, quote, "Many stamina Wardens run skills that give Major Brutality and have better secondary effects." Ok, which ones?

In fact, I'll list the Major Brutality skills for you, courtesy of UESP:

- Bull Netch (Warden only) - secondary benefit stam return
- Drain Power (NB only)
- Hidden Blade (DW only) - secondary benefit bounce twice or +speed for 6 seconds
- Igneous Weapons (DK only)
- Momentum (2H only) - secondary benefit heal and de-snare or heal and heal
- Rousing Roar (WW only) - secondary effect off-balance or fear
- Surge (Sorc only)

So...what are you talking about? Which skills "many Stamina Wardens" run for Major Brutality that are not Bull Netch? Hidden Blade, and somehow stamina return is deemed "meh" compared with 2 bounces of a ranged spammable? Momentum, because Stamdens do not already have at least three solid burst heal and HoT options? Oh, I've got it, "many Stamina Wardens" must be werewolves...

Honestly. It's like - pick a random skill and do a random unnecessary morph to it because ponies. Ok then. Whatever.

GrumpyDuckling

Jarryzzt wrote: »

Wait, what?

Did someone seriously propose having a skill where one morph grants resource return but another morph grants an extra pet (read: DPS and possible off-tank)?

Hey, I have an idea, let's have a skill where one morph is a stamina execute and the other morph is a magicka steal. Or one where one morph is a damage shield and the other is an AoE DoT. So what if they are completely separate abilities that do widely different things. Balance is easy, right?

---

I am also intrigued by the assertion that Netch is, quote, "meh" (whatever that means) because, quote, "Many stamina Wardens run skills that give Major Brutality and have better secondary effects." Ok, which ones?

In fact, I'll list the Major Brutality skills for you, courtesy of UESP:

- Bull Netch (Warden only) - secondary benefit stam return
- Drain Power (NB only)
- Hidden Blade (DW only) - secondary benefit bounce twice or +speed for 6 seconds
- Igneous Weapons (DK only)
- Momentum (2H only) - secondary benefit heal and de-snare or heal and heal
- Rousing Roar (WW only) - secondary effect off-balance or fear
- Surge (Sorc only)

So...what are you talking about? Which skills "many Stamina Wardens" run for Major Brutality that are not Bull Netch? Hidden Blade, and somehow stamina return is deemed "meh" compared with 2 bounces of a ranged spammable? Momentum, because Stamdens do not already have at least three solid burst heal and HoT options? Oh, I've got it, "many Stamina Wardens" must be werewolves...

Honestly. It's like - pick a random skill and do a random unnecessary morph to it because ponies. Ok then. Whatever.

I enjoy your enthusiasm.

PVP - 2H with Forward Momentum/Rally is too good to pass up for most Wardens (snare removal/immunity or burst heal on a skill that also gives major brutality frees up another slot so you don't have to run shrooms for burst heal or wear 5 medium for shuffle - which opens up heavy armor).

PVE - Shrouded Daggers on Dual Wield bar (unless you are DPS running bow/bow to do less DPS or bow/one hand and shield, which if that's the case then you'll have to explain to me why)

The suggestion isn't random. Read the reasons listed in the first post.

Lynx7386

Again, I'm all for a dire wold skin for the bear ult, but wardens do not need or warrant another summoned pet.

The only thing the netch needs is a cosmetic skin to turn it into an owl or something instead of a floating jellyfish

GrumpyDuckling

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Again, I'm all for a dire wold skin for the bear ult, but wardens do not need or warrant another summoned pet.

The only thing the netch needs is a cosmetic skin to turn it into an owl or something instead of a floating jellyfish

What's the harm in adding a skill that creates more options for ways that players can play/enjoy the game and also fits in with the animal companions skill line?

Skins would be cool too, but I don't understand why you insist on it being an either/or thing.

Lynx7386

There isn't any ability morph in the game that completely changes what the base ability does. You're asking for what is already a good resource and buff ability to be changed into something 100% different. It doesn't work that way.

On top of that, your solution to getting rid of bull netch is to have Betty netch restore your highest attribute. That doesn't work for most warden tank builds, which have higher magicka and magicka recovery but use bull netch for the stamina sustain.

You're basically trying to push a greedy and self centered change without caring about any other builds it effects.

We are not sorcs. We are not built around having an army of pets. We're built around temporary summons, and there is no need or room for yet another permanent summon in the warden arsenal.

Once again, it would be far easier and more economical to add wolf/lion skins to the bear ultimate.

GrumpyDuckling

Lynx7386 wrote: »

There isn't any ability morph in the game that completely changes what the base ability does. You're asking for what is already a good resource and buff ability to be changed into something 100% different. It doesn't work that way.

On top of that, your solution to getting rid of bull netch is to have Betty netch restore your highest attribute. That doesn't work for most warden tank builds, which have higher magicka and magicka recovery but use bull netch for the stamina sustain.

You're basically trying to push a greedy and self centered change without caring about any other builds it effects.

We are not sorcs. We are not built around having an army of pets. We're built around temporary summons, and there is no need or room for yet another permanent summon in the warden arsenal.

Once again, it would be far easier and more economical to add wolf/lion skins to the bear ultimate.

"There isn't any ability morph in the game that completely changes what the base ability does."

Unstable Familiar --> Clannfear
Summon Shade --> Shadow Image
Solar Flare --> Solar Barrage
Restoring Aura --> Repentance

The proposed Dire Wolf change still offers major brutality (same as proposed Betty Netch/Blue Betty change), and instead offers a Dire Wolf instead of a Netch. It's closest comparison would probably be Unstable Familiar into Clannfear.

"You're basically trying to push a greedy and self centered change without caring about any other builds it effects."

Hyperbole. I appreciate constructive criticism, but you're getting away from that. "Greedy and self-centered" implies that I haven't been actively attempting to consider any/all current builds in the suggested change. I've put a lot of time into thinking this through and thought I had all builds covered. Thank you for bringing up the magicka Warden tank perspective - that part was constructive. I'll be brainstorming a way to fit them into the above suggestion.

"We are not sorcs. We are not built around having an army of pets. We're built around temporary summons, and there is no need or room for yet another permanent summon in the warden arsenal."

I don't understand your argument/reasoning for why there couldn't be room for another (optional) permanent summon in the Warden arsenal. A Dire Wolf summon fits into the skill line theme, doesn't break lore, and would open up another way to play that some would find to be fun.

Lynx7386

Does the netch attack? No.
Is the netch a toggle that requries both bars? No.
Does the netch last indefinitely once summoned? No.

This change is fine. If the dire wolf just sits there and spits at you for 20 seconds and then disappears.

GrumpyDuckling

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Does the netch attack? No.
Is the netch a toggle that requries both bars? No.
Does the netch last indefinitely once summoned? No.

This change is fine. If the dire wolf just sits there and spits at you for 20 seconds and then disappears.

None of those questions offer a compelling enough reason for why a Dire Wolf summon option wouldn't simply offer players another fun way to build/play a class in a way that fits the theme of the skill line and doesn't break lore.

Praeficere

-

GrumpyDuckling

A precedent has been set with the upcoming change to Dark Cloak, where one morph operates differently than the base skill. Dire Wolf would be a fun next step

GrumpyDuckling

Updated on 5/22/18 to ensure that adding dire wolf wouldn't detract from any current builds.

Madrax573

TBH I don't have any major feeling one way of the other to the actual bonusii of the warden summons etc but I would like to be able to change the skins for them to more animals rather than morrowind specifi animals.

Bear I like but would love to be able to change it to a wolf or big cat!
Cliff racers would be nice as a hawk or eagle I think
Netch so needs to be an owl!
Shalks wan be wombats or some such rather than bugs.
The netcherflies I'm fine with tbh

Avran_Sylt

The NB cloak morphs actually completely separates them into different abilities.
You'd have to give up the Major Brutality/Sorcery too in addition to the recovery.

IE:

Nature's Companion - Netch:
A Netch rushes to your side, restoring [x] Magicka or Stamina and Granting Major Sorcery/Brutality over the duration, based on your max stat.

Nature's Companion - Betty Netch
The Betty Netch also removes one negative effect on activation.

Nature's Companion - Wolf
A Wolf rushes to aid you for a short duration. The Wolf's attacks deal [x] Physical Damage. Activating this ability while the Wolf is summoned causes the Wolf to Howl, dealing [x] Magic Damage to ,and slowing, nearby enemies. (Howl has a Magicka cost)

GrumpyDuckling

Edit: Updated on 5/28/18 to tag class reps that I could find.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@KenaPKK
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

Tasear

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Edit: Updated on 5/28/18 to tag class reps that I could find.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@KenaPKK
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

While there is much to say about the issue, your voices have been heard and noted. I would also like to remind you we aren't in charge of combat changes.

Masel

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Edit: Updated on 5/28/18 to tag class reps that I could find.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@KenaPKK
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

I wanted to chime in here, because I personally disagree with the fact that the netch is not useful enough. It procs a heal on cast, is free, removes a negative effect, and gives ~190 magicka or stamina per second, which is very very nice in all scenarios.

You notice it when the netch isn't there on both stamina and magicka wardens in pve and pvp, and it is basically essential to have in any kind of build. I can understand why wardens need more active damaging combat abilities, they really do, but this is not the right skill to alter.

Bird of prey/deceptive predator is a much better skill to alter because all it does is provide major buffs with a too shoer duration for its cost, which is very underwhelming for the last skill you unlock in that skillline.

Joy_Division

Masel92 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Edit: Updated on 5/28/18 to tag class reps that I could find.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@KenaPKK
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

I wanted to chime in here, because I personally disagree with the fact that the netch is not useful enough. It procs a heal on cast, is free, removes a negative effect, and gives ~190 magicka or stamina per second, which is very very nice in all scenarios.

You notice it when the netch isn't there on both stamina and magicka wardens in pve and pvp, and it is basically essential to have in any kind of build. I can understand why wardens need more active damaging combat abilities, they really do, but this is not the right skill to alter.

Bird of prey/deceptive predator is a much better skill to alter because all it does is provide major buffs with a too shoer duration for its cost, which is very underwhelming for the last skill you unlock in that skillline.

I do not disagree, however I do feel it ought to be mentioned that the Bull Netch morph does not remove a negative effect, which I think is annoying (in general I dislike the pattern of a morph doing nothing aside from turning the original skill from magicka to stamina and vice versa).

Masel

Masel92 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Edit: Updated on 5/28/18 to tag class reps that I could find.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@KenaPKK
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

I wanted to chime in here, because I personally disagree with the fact that the netch is not useful enough. It procs a heal on cast, is free, removes a negative effect, and gives ~190 magicka or stamina per second, which is very very nice in all scenarios.

You notice it when the netch isn't there on both stamina and magicka wardens in pve and pvp, and it is basically essential to have in any kind of build. I can understand why wardens need more active damaging combat abilities, they really do, but this is not the right skill to alter.

Bird of prey/deceptive predator is a much better skill to alter because all it does is provide major buffs with a too shoer duration for its cost, which is very underwhelming for the last skill you unlock in that skillline.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Edit: Updated on 5/28/18 to tag class reps that I could find.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@KenaPKK
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

I wanted to chime in here, because I personally disagree with the fact that the netch is not useful enough. It procs a heal on cast, is free, removes a negative effect, and gives ~190 magicka or stamina per second, which is very very nice in all scenarios.

You notice it when the netch isn't there on both stamina and magicka wardens in pve and pvp, and it is basically essential to have in any kind of build. I can understand why wardens need more active damaging combat abilities, they really do, but this is not the right skill to alter.

Bird of prey/deceptive predator is a much better skill to alter because all it does is provide major buffs with a too shoer duration for its cost, which is very underwhelming for the last skill you unlock in that skillline.

I do not disagree, however I do feel it ought to be mentioned that the Bull Netch morph does not remove a negative effect, which I think is annoying (in general I dislike the pattern of a morph doing nothing aside from turning the original skill from magicka to stamina and vice versa).

Yeah, and warden has multiple of those. Cutting dive is another one...

Anti_Virus

Joy_Division wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Edit: Updated on 5/28/18 to tag class reps that I could find.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@KenaPKK
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

I wanted to chime in here, because I personally disagree with the fact that the netch is not useful enough. It procs a heal on cast, is free, removes a negative effect, and gives ~190 magicka or stamina per second, which is very very nice in all scenarios.

You notice it when the netch isn't there on both stamina and magicka wardens in pve and pvp, and it is basically essential to have in any kind of build. I can understand why wardens need more active damaging combat abilities, they really do, but this is not the right skill to alter.

Bird of prey/deceptive predator is a much better skill to alter because all it does is provide major buffs with a too shoer duration for its cost, which is very underwhelming for the last skill you unlock in that skillline.

I do not disagree, however I do feel it ought to be mentioned that the Bull Netch morph does not remove a negative effect, which I think is annoying (in general I dislike the pattern of a morph doing nothing aside from turning the original skill from magicka to stamina and vice versa).

DK and sorc has the same problem.

Molten weapon morphs

surge morphs

GrumpyDuckling

Masel92 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Edit: Updated on 5/28/18 to tag class reps that I could find.

@Alcast
@Checkmath
@FeaR Turbo
@Hexys
@Joy_Division
@KenaPKK
@Liofa
@Masel92
@Quantum_V
@stileanima
@Tasear

I wanted to chime in here, because I personally disagree with the fact that the netch is not useful enough. It procs a heal on cast, is free, removes a negative effect, and gives ~190 magicka or stamina per second, which is very very nice in all scenarios.

You notice it when the netch isn't there on both stamina and magicka wardens in pve and pvp, and it is basically essential to have in any kind of build. I can understand why wardens need more active damaging combat abilities, they really do, but this is not the right skill to alter.

Bird of prey/deceptive predator is a much better skill to alter because all it does is provide major buffs with a too shoer duration for its cost, which is very underwhelming for the last skill you unlock in that skillline.

@Masel92

I disagree that the netch is "basically essential" in any kind of build. A better case can be made for betty being essential for magicka, as the player also gets a cleanse, but for stamina, I would argue that the following are better options for major brutality:

PVP - 2H with Forward Momentum/Rally is too good to pass up for most Wardens (snare removal/immunity or burst heal on a skill that also gives major brutality frees up another slot so you don't have to run shrooms for burst heal or wear 5 medium for shuffle - which also opens up heavy armor).

PVE - Shrouded Daggers on Dual Wield bar (I would think that most DPS would prefer Shrouded Daggers because it's actually doing damage).

I agree with what you're saying about prey/predator, but I think that's a different discussion.

BrokenGameMechanics

Jarryzzt wrote: »

Wait, what?

Did someone seriously propose having a skill where one morph grants resource return but another morph grants an extra pet (read: DPS and possible off-tank)?

Hey, I have an idea, let's have a skill where one morph is a stamina execute and the other morph is a magicka steal. Or one where one morph is a damage shield and the other is an AoE DoT. So what if they are completely separate abilities that do widely different things. Balance is easy, right?

---

I am also intrigued by the assertion that Netch is, quote, "meh" (whatever that means) because, quote, "Many stamina Wardens run skills that give Major Brutality and have better secondary effects." Ok, which ones?

In fact, I'll list the Major Brutality skills for you, courtesy of UESP:

- Bull Netch (Warden only) - secondary benefit stam return
- Drain Power (NB only)
- Hidden Blade (DW only) - secondary benefit bounce twice or +speed for 6 seconds
- Igneous Weapons (DK only)
- Momentum (2H only) - secondary benefit heal and de-snare or heal and heal
- Rousing Roar (WW only) - secondary effect off-balance or fear
- Surge (Sorc only)

So...what are you talking about? Which skills "many Stamina Wardens" run for Major Brutality that are not Bull Netch? Hidden Blade, and somehow stamina return is deemed "meh" compared with 2 bounces of a ranged spammable? Momentum, because Stamdens do not already have at least three solid burst heal and HoT options? Oh, I've got it, "many Stamina Wardens" must be werewolves...

Honestly. It's like - pick a random skill and do a random unnecessary morph to it because ponies. Ok then. Whatever.

Not sure what point you're making. The skills you listed are not niche, skills. E.g. both FM and Daggers for example are very common DW and 2H skills with high usage / uptime making the Bull Netch slot waster for marginal resource restore. In fact, out of all the Warden skills,by far it is the Bull Netch that I run into conflicts with. You sort of have to slot it in a bunch of configurations, but you feel screwed over because net-net you're getting essentially nothing.

To the point that on my Stamden for PvP, many a time I will slot Betty over Bull for the purge and the magica boost vs the small stam return because I'm slinging DW daggers. There is real damage there, a slow effect, proc'ing, enchants, aoe or solid range, and a free purge of everything from a bleed to a cold fire plus magica regen which pretty important for a Stamden as the Warden class design requires relentless button mashing for buffs which are magica based (no stam version of needed buffs) ...

No class design should be such that the correct decision is to NOT slot the "correct" resource class skill is even in doubt. Here it is not in doubt, it would be obviously wrong. This is like a Sorc being forced to Flame Reach (and staff) for a Bow because of issues how thte Class was designed. (you get the idea here, not best analogy).

Oakmontowls_ESO

Dat necro though. Just use potions for brutality