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ZOS, Please start balancing the game in a way which encourages more than a couple ability choices

dazee
dazee
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I'm now told that "Deadly cloak" is absolutely essential for veteran content. Why? You do realize that if you don't dual wield, you dont even have access to this skill? why should everyone and their mother dual wield? why should everyone use the same few abilities in veteran content? this is extremely un elder scrolls like and poor design to boot, please fix. Make more things viable so I'm not yelled at for doing something interesting with my build.
Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.
  • Kikke
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    I did vet Trials HM with a 2h/bow build, so no. you do not NEED deadly cloak for anything. Tho it is a nice handicap.
    Cleared Trials:
    - vAA HM - vHRC HM - vSO HM - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS HM - vCR HM -

    "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching."
    -Someone said it, I guess.
  • Nemeliom
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    Just don't play with elitists. You will enjoy the game more. Nothing worst than playing with perfectionists.
    Baradur Morker - Level 50 Bosmer Nightblade
    Le-Duck - Level 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight
    Boom-Stormer - Level 50 High Elf Sorcerer
    Nemeliom the Great - Level 50 Redguard Warden
    Crazy Little Maggie - Level 50 High Elf Templar
  • Ley
    Ley
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    Definitely not essential but it does make things easier. A lot of AOE damage that would otherwise 1-hit you becomes survivable. You don't need it but if you chose to forgo Deadly Cloak, you need to either avoid these 1-shot mechanics extremely well or find another way to mitigate the damage.
    Leylith - MagSorc | Leyloth - StamPlar | Leynerd - MagPlar | Leylit - StamBlade | Ley Eviticus - StamDK | Leydor - MagDen | Leylum - StamSorc | Leylux - MagBlade
  • Kodrac
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    It won't matter. Even if Zo$ makes a change the min/maxers will find a new meta and shove that down your throat too.
  • Juju_beans
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    dazee wrote: »
    I'm now told that "Deadly cloak" is absolutely essential for veteran content. Why? You do realize that if you don't dual wield, you dont even have access to this skill? why should everyone and their mother dual wield? why should everyone use the same few abilities in veteran content? this is extremely un elder scrolls like and poor design to boot, please fix. Make more things viable so I'm not yelled at for doing something interesting with my build.

    Why ? Because other players said so; because it's the FOTM skill, that's why.
  • SoLooney
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    cause 25perc dmg mitigation is a lot for stam players, dual wield out dmgs 2h anyways

    just dont get complain about getting bopped in harder vet trial content
  • xaraan
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    You don't NEED to do a lot of the stuff the "meta" says you should do, it's just the strongest. And no matter what you do, there will always be a strongest option for something.

    But it is unfortunate that almost all my stam builds have the same front/back bar and need the same armor sets/weapon sets with just a couple arguable exceptions. Same goes for magicka, tank and heals.

    I do have a lot of fun doing non-end game stuff sometimes and just running weird builds for the heck of it.
    -- @xaraan --
    nightblade: Xaraan templar: Xaraan-dar dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus necromancer: Xaraan-qa warden: Xaraanodon sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
    AD • NA • PC
  • VaranisArano
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    Everyone uses the same abilities because they are the most efficient ways of doing damage. If you don't use Caltrops, for example, because you hate PVP or something, you have to figure out where to replace that damage over time in your rotation or just do without.

    Its like a stam build leaving Endless Hail out of their PVE rotation. What's going to replace that constant damage?

    In the case of deadly cloak, I'd say, what replaces that DOT and that damage mitigation? If your damage and your ability to mitigate damage is sufficient without it, then by all means, its something that can be replaced.
  • Azyle1
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    There is always, ALWAYS, going to be something that is the best. Therefore people will flock to it. If they made something that's like endless hail but it was with, say, a new "crossbow" weapon type, what is the difference even?
  • Acrolas
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    I think more people would actively use Deadly Cloak if the animation weren't so cheesy. Almost something like Gossamer Chains, where the affected enemies would be cloaked in strands of razor-sharp filaments as opposed to the silly floating almost nondescript razors flying around you.

    elupsqn.jpg
    signing off
  • Danksta
    Danksta
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    Nemeliom wrote: »
    Just don't play with elitists. You will enjoy the game more. Nothing worst than playing with perfectionists.

    *worse
    BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA

  • Lynx7386
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    You only need blade cloak if you're a stamina dps, in which case you should already be using dw anyways. Magicka dps can run a damage shield (hardened ward or annulment) to help them survive aoe.

    If you're running 2h for trials, you're already at a disadvantage and the only way to easily survive those mechanics would be with bone shield, which is going to take up massive amounts of your stamina and make your already poor dps even worse.

    There's always a meta. If it was 2h, the dual wield fanboys would be complaining just as much as you are now.
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • LiquidPony
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    Juju_beans wrote: »
    dazee wrote: »
    I'm now told that "Deadly cloak" is absolutely essential for veteran content. Why? You do realize that if you don't dual wield, you dont even have access to this skill? why should everyone and their mother dual wield? why should everyone use the same few abilities in veteran content? this is extremely un elder scrolls like and poor design to boot, please fix. Make more things viable so I'm not yelled at for doing something interesting with my build.

    Why ? Because other players said so; because it's the FOTM skill, that's why.

    Er, no, it's because it mitigates 25% of all AoE damage while also doing 2k+ DPS in static fights as an AoE DoT. Absolutely fantastic for some fights (Mage HM, Triplets and Assembly General, Pinnacle Factotum, etc.). Not necessary in other fights.

    The last sentence is something that people don't seem to understand, especially the "hurr durr people only play 'the meta' because they're too stupid to come up with their own builds" crowd. You don't need to use Deadly Cloak all of the time, but it is very, very strong in some content. It's certainly not "flavor of the month," as it's been a staple of PvE stam builds for a long time.

    And OP, the alternative to Deadly Cloak is Brawler in the 2H tree. It's not quite as strong as Deadly Cloak in terms of damage mitigation (in most content), but it's still a very nice skill.
  • KingYogi415
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    This is an MMO, not skyrim.

    Running the right gear/skills is just a start, it will not make you good by any means!
  • Kiralyn2000
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    Kodrac wrote: »
    It won't matter. Even if Zo$ makes a change the min/maxers will find a new meta and shove that down your throat too.

    Yep. No matter how "well balanced" they make the skills, theorycrafters will find the combination that is 0.2% better, and declare that to be The One True Way. It's been like that in nearly every MMO that I've ever played.
  • idk
    idk
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    As some have pointed out, the information provided to OP is not correct.

    That being said, there are some casual guilds that have had some odd requirements. One required all dps to have over 20k HP not including ebon buff and that was just before vMoL was added and we were all over level for the trials. They were probably less challenging than normal trials now.

    To the point of really having a small selection of skills for each bar depending on your weapons, that is really MMORPG 101. I have seen a screen full of skills available, however, there was only a small number that were useful in a boss fine and they must be used in a specific order or ones DPS is severely lacking. That is life in an MMORPG and this game is first and foremost an MMORPG.
  • DoctorESO
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    kikkehs wrote: »
    I did vet Trials HM with a 2h/bow build, so no. you do not NEED deadly cloak for anything. Tho it is a nice handicap.

    Craglorn HM trials or DLC HM trials?
  • dazee
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    You only need blade cloak if you're a stamina dps, in which case you should already be using dw anyways.

    And that attitude of "use this or GTFO" is toxic and kills fun.
    Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.
  • dazee
    dazee
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    Kodrac wrote: »
    It won't matter. Even if Zo$ makes a change the min/maxers will find a new meta and shove that down your throat too.

    Yep. No matter how "well balanced" they make the skills, theorycrafters will find the combination that is 0.2% better, and declare that to be The One True Way. It's been like that in nearly every MMO that I've ever played.

    But the smaller the difference actually is the better off we are and the easier it is to disprove the fun haters.
    Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.
  • Jenuma
    Jenuma
    Nobody is forcing you to run any particular skills or gear, though. If you would rather run 2H than DW, do that. But if you want to do vet DLC HM content or get leaderboard scores, your raid leader is probably going to ask you to switch to DW. That's always going to be the case. If you think that's unfair, you can always organize your own raids with your own requirements.
  • Datthaw
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    dazee wrote: »
    You only need blade cloak if you're a stamina dps, in which case you should already be using dw anyways.

    And that attitude of "use this or GTFO" is toxic and kills fun.

    TBH it's not the players fault for this. If you want to join end game vet mode trials, then yeah you need to have the best possible setup. It's not the players fault there are so few viable options, that blame is all on zos for *** balancing.

    I do understand there will still be some people who force thier way on you but it's not the players fault a double bow build is not viable for endgame content.
  • Drachenfier
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    Everyone uses the same abilities because there just aren't that many.

    Die to a templar, death screen says jabs jabs jabs jabs
    Die to a Warden, death screen says birds birds birds birds
    Die to a DK - lash lash lash lash
    so on and so on.

    Honestly, the classes in this game are pretty boring, and it largely comes down to the extremely limited skillsets and very small hotbars.
  • dazee
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    Everyone uses the same abilities because there just aren't that many.

    Die to a templar, death screen says jabs jabs jabs jabs
    Die to a Warden, death screen says birds birds birds birds
    Die to a DK - lash lash lash lash
    so on and so on.

    Honestly, the classes in this game are pretty boring, and it largely comes down to the extremely limited skillsets and very small hotbars.

    Game would honestly be a lot better if they opened up all skill lines. I dont mind the small hotbars, makes you choose which abilities to use in which situation, but we could use a built in build swap mechanic rather than having to rely on add ons.
    Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.
  • Kova
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    We had that, but it just wasn't similar to other mmos. So people whined and started leaving, so the game changed and now we have silly hats and dragon pets.

    Thanks.

    Edit: grammar
    Edited by Kova on March 5, 2018 7:31PM
    EP Sorc: Aydinn
    AD Stamplar: Verdant`Knight
    DC Stamblade: Apple`Punch
    EP Stam Sorc: Kós
    AD DragonKnight: Transmigrant
    EP NIghtblade: Aydinn
  • idk
    idk
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    dazee wrote: »
    You only need blade cloak if you're a stamina dps, in which case you should already be using dw anyways.

    And that attitude of "use this or GTFO" is toxic and kills fun.

    Solid raid groups don’t have that mentality. For them it’s two things for dps.

    Solid dps and limited number of deaths. They really don’t care how you do it as long as it’s legit. In this game it’s more often the dps is at fault for dying vs the healer.
  • VaranisArano
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    dazee wrote: »
    Everyone uses the same abilities because there just aren't that many.

    Die to a templar, death screen says jabs jabs jabs jabs
    Die to a Warden, death screen says birds birds birds birds
    Die to a DK - lash lash lash lash
    so on and so on.

    Honestly, the classes in this game are pretty boring, and it largely comes down to the extremely limited skillsets and very small hotbars.

    Game would honestly be a lot better if they opened up all skill lines. I dont mind the small hotbars, makes you choose which abilities to use in which situation, but we could use a built in build swap mechanic rather than having to rely on add ons.

    And how exactly is that going to change the current meta? Everyone will pick the skills that are best for the job, other skills will be forgotten. It'll be a massive buff, temporarily, as everyone combines class skills to powerful effect, ZOS scrambles to balance the PVE content and figure out how passives now work in combo with skills they were never meant to combo with, and the theorycrafters hash out the new meta.

    Also, now everyone is screaming "nerf cloak" in PVP because now everyone has it.
  • Jarryzzt
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    1. Every single RPG in existence has had "optimal" setups. This is how having skills/attributes/whatever works - some combination is going to be better for a given task/content/mission than others.

    To be fair, some modern MMOs are better about it than others, meaning balance things to give more than one or two cookie-cutter builds per class. ESO...I would not group with these. Because essentially once you decide magicka or stamina half your skill slots fill up automatically (quick - how many magicka builds do not use Elemental Blockade?). Unfortunate, but that is the meta we have to live with.

    2. Is it necessary to use cookie-cutter builds and/or every "must" skill in the game? No.

    To wit, Cloak can be safely left off if you're doing stuff like normal/vet dungeons (yes, even vet - I would argue most of the mechanics that kill you blow right through your Cloak anyway, and a competent healer obviates all the rest). But it is optimal for other content types. Leaving it off there puts you at a disadvantage. [Or render you liable to getting kicked from the group.]

    It's a bit like shields on magicka characters - in some content I never hit the shield button, in other content I spam it every six seconds (or more frequently even). Could I choose not to spam them and leave them off my bar entirely? Yes, but that would make life rather more difficult (hello vMA!), it's sort of like my dream of some day doing a 1h/1h DPS build - I could, but it would be rather suboptimal vs. what the meta is giving me.
  • Kalante
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    Nemeliom wrote: »
    Just don't play with elitists. You will enjoy the game more. Nothing worst than playing with perfectionists.

    Some people do not like to be with a mediocre group. Who wants to sit there on a trial and waste four hours with dudes running around with 2h's and 9k dps.
  • josiahva
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    xaraan wrote: »
    You don't NEED to do a lot of the stuff the "meta" says you should do, it's just the strongest. And no matter what you do, there will always be a strongest option for something.

    But it is unfortunate that almost all my stam builds have the same front/back bar and need the same armor sets/weapon sets with just a couple arguable exceptions. Same goes for magicka, tank and heals.

    I do have a lot of fun doing non-end game stuff sometimes and just running weird builds for the heck of it.

    Here is the problem with that line of thought though: Sure...there is an optimal build that is best when played PERFECTLY. The fact is most people cant play any particular build perfectly...so many people are able to out-perform an optimal build using a sub-optimal build just because they can play it better than the optimal build for whatever reason, maybe they have years of practice on their sub-optimal build, maybe their sub-optimal build just fits their playstyle better, whatever. The point is, optimal is very subjective depending on player practice with that build as well as innate skill.
  • josiahva
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    Kalante wrote: »
    Nemeliom wrote: »
    Just don't play with elitists. You will enjoy the game more. Nothing worst than playing with perfectionists.

    Some people do not like to be with a mediocre group. Who wants to sit there on a trial and waste four hours with dudes running around with 2h's and 9k dps.

    I can see your point is you are going for leaderboards...but the time argument makes no sense to me for casual runs...if you want a speedrun, you aren't enjoying the content, you are acting like playing a trial(or vet DLC dungeon) is a chore...if that's the case, why bother?
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