"Ultimates" and Elder Scrolls lore

Gnortranermara

ESO is the first Elder Scrolls game to use so-called "Ultimates". But where did this concept come from?

Health, Stamina, and Magicka are series staples for resources. Spells, Lesser Powers, and Greater Powers are series staples for abilities.

"Ultimate", whether referring to the resource or ability type, is a lore-breaking loaner word borrowed from other genres. It doesn't fit the fantasy theme of Elder Scrolls games. ULTIMATE! I can't help but picture some cheesy Street Fighter scene.

A simple lore-friendly fix would be to replace the term Ultimate with Power. You gain Power from combat and use it to unleash Power abilities. That would have been consistent with Elder Scrolls lore and the fantasy genre, and there's no earthly explanation for why this wasn't done from the earliest stages of game development.

There is another lore-friendly alternative worth considering: Dawnbreaker is an Artifact, providing a nice template for another possible system that could've been used. You could gain Favor from combat and use it to summon powerful Artifacts. That would also be consistent with Elder Scrolls lore and the fantasy genre. If such a system had been implemented from the beginning, we could all be accustomed to playing with a familiar collection of Daedric and Aedric Artifacts instead of cringe-inducing fighter-game "Ultimates".

This isn't comprehensive, but some examples to show how this could work with existing artifacts from the lore (and new ones could be created, too, to fill gaps where there is no obvious choice):

WORLD SKILLS
Mage's Guild: Staff of Magnus
Fighter's Guild: Dawnbreaker
Vampire: Mace of Molag Bal
Werewolf: Ring of Hircine

CLASS SKILLS
Aedric Spear: Chrysamere
Restoring Light: Lord's Mail
Dark Magic: Black Book
Summoning: Spear of Bitter Mercy, or Sanguine Rose
Shadow: Ebony Mail
Assassination: Mehrunes' Razor
Siphoning: Umbra
Ardent Flame: Goldbrand

WEAPONS SKILLS
Two-hander: Volendrung
Bow: Auriel's Bow
One-hand and Shield: Spellbreaker

So given the lore-friendly alternatives, Powers or Artifacts, why do you think ZOS decided to borrow the lore-breaking idea of "Ultimates" from fighting genre games?

Milvan

geonsocal

idk

Isn’t wel the first Elder Scrolls game to have a set of skills available with a sexism completely different set available with the push of a button vs something on one hand and something else in the other.

None of it came from lore. It’s just the game design.

VaranisArano

Because the closest Skyrim equivalent of "Master Level Spells" sounds boring and limited to magicka.

Skyrim's Blizzard spell is pretty much a Warden's Permafrost, but the ultimate can be used completely separate from being a magic user.

casparian

idk wrote: »

Isn’t wel the first Elder Scrolls game to have a set of skills available with a sexism completely different set available with the push of a button vs something on one hand and something else in the other.

None of it came from lore. It’s just the game design.

Autocorrect OP, pls nerf

Nifty2g

wouldnt master spells be considered ultimate's

Ankael07

If its in the game its lore friendly, simple as that.

Gnortranermara

idk wrote: »

Isn’t wel the first Elder Scrolls game to have a set of skills available with a sexism completely different set available with the push of a button vs something on one hand and something else in the other.

What did I just read?

Gnortranermara

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because the closest Skyrim equivalent of "Master Level Spells" sounds boring and limited to magicka.

Skyrim's Blizzard spell is pretty much a Warden's Permafrost, but the ultimate can be used completely separate from being a magic user.

Did you read the post? I did not say "let's call them spells". I suggested Powers (as in, Greater Powers and Lesser Powers from lore) or Artifacts as alternatives.

Recremen

Yo if you want to talk about combat in the lore then ESO is probably the best representation so far for the weird *** that goes on. Like let's just talk for even half a minute about the Shehai of a first-rank Ansei, whose blade sunk Old Yokuda, and THEN get back to me about whether or not a more whip made of flame or a spear of destructive light is "lore-friendly" enough for ya. Ultimates are completely acceptable within the canon. After all, how many lorebook fight scenes start with everyone opening with their best attack?

Also Stamina used to be called Fatigue and we used to have a real attribute system so let's not get ahead of ourselves chasing the limits of game mechanics.

geonsocal

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because the closest Skyrim equivalent of "Master Level Spells" sounds boring and limited to magicka.

Skyrim's Blizzard spell is pretty much a Warden's Permafrost, but the ultimate can be used completely separate from being a magic user.

Did you read the post? I did not say "let's call them spells". I suggested Powers (as in, Greater Powers and Lesser Powers from lore) or Artifacts as alternatives.

i'm feeling ya now...let's see, maybe we could call ourselves, like, like:



no doubt the whole time in the background we could be playing:

It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kinda hectic
It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kinda hectic
It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kinda hectic
It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kinda hectic
It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kinda hectic
It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kinda hectic
It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kinda hectic
It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kinda hectic

I've got the power

sorry OP, not a bad idea at all - things are just a bit slow at work at the moment...please feel free to troll me back at some point in the near future...

LMar

I mean, I like the idea, but it is just a naming thing after all. But I do like the concept

VaranisArano

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because the closest Skyrim equivalent of "Master Level Spells" sounds boring and limited to magicka.

Skyrim's Blizzard spell is pretty much a Warden's Permafrost, but the ultimate can be used completely separate from being a magic user.

Did you read the post? I did not say "let's call them spells". I suggested Powers (as in, Greater Powers and Lesser Powers from lore) or Artifacts as alternatives.

Your contention was the "Ultimates" as a name was not lore friendly. I pointed out that at least one current ultimate is exactly equivalent to a Skyrim Master Level Spell. There's not a whole lot of other equivalents in the Elder Scroll series. (Technically, I suppose the Infero Desto ultimate is roughly equivalent to the Skyrim Fire Master Level Spell, and that Soul Assault is a reflavored version of Skyrim's Lightning master level spell.) So if you want a name that has a direct equivalent, Master Level Spell is a reasonable point.

As for your suggestion of Lesser and Greater Powers...in the single player games, the powers are generally limited in use (once per day in the single player games) and often granted by something like a character's race, birthsign, a standing stone, or a faction. So those aren't really a good comparison with ultimates either.

I don't mind your idea of swapping the ultimates to be more artifact-themed, but I do think its kind of pointless by now.

Gnortranermara

Yes, it's partly just a naming thing, if they went with Power. I don't understand why they didn't. Why adopt a cringy term from other genres?

If they went with Artifact, it really could've been even more than just names. There's a lot of cool possibilities there that got missed.

starkerealm

idk wrote: »

Isn’t wel the first Elder Scrolls game to have a set of skills available with a sexism completely different set available with the push of a button vs something on one hand and something else in the other.

None of it came from lore. It’s just the game design.

starkerealm

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because the closest Skyrim equivalent of "Master Level Spells" sounds boring and limited to magicka.

Skyrim's Blizzard spell is pretty much a Warden's Permafrost, but the ultimate can be used completely separate from being a magic user.

The closest equivalent in Skyrim were the Powers. In fact, werewolf form was, specifically, a power. So, that tracks.

NyassaV

Eh, not bad. Ult sounds more catchy than Power

VaranisArano

starkerealm wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because the closest Skyrim equivalent of "Master Level Spells" sounds boring and limited to magicka.

Skyrim's Blizzard spell is pretty much a Warden's Permafrost, but the ultimate can be used completely separate from being a magic user.

The closest equivalent in Skyrim were the Powers. In fact, werewolf form was, specifically, a power. So, that tracks.

Okay, fair.

So the Skyrim equivalents we've seen so far are:

ESO's Warden ultimate Permafrost/Skyrim's ice Master Level Spell
ESO's Werewolf ultimate/Skyrim's Werewolf power
ESO's Inferno Desto staff ultimate/Skyrim's fire Master level spell
ESO's Bat Swarm Ultimate/ Skyrim's vampire power (or is that a spell once in the vampire lord form?)
ESO's Solar Prism Ultimate/ Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC Sun Stone Power (must be reacquired before next use)
ESO's Magma Armor Ultimate/ Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC Earth stone Power (must be reacquired before next use)
ESO' Overload Ultimate/ Skyrim's Lightning Master Level spell
ESO's Panacea Ultimate/ Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC Water Stone power (must be reacquired before next use)


Are there others I'm missing? So far, I'm see that simplifying all these into one category seems like a good idea on teh part of ZOS.

starkerealm

VaranisArano wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Because the closest Skyrim equivalent of "Master Level Spells" sounds boring and limited to magicka.

Skyrim's Blizzard spell is pretty much a Warden's Permafrost, but the ultimate can be used completely separate from being a magic user.

The closest equivalent in Skyrim were the Powers. In fact, werewolf form was, specifically, a power. So, that tracks.

Okay, fair.

So the Skyrim equivalents we've seen so far are:

ESO's Warden ultimate Permafrost/Skyrim's ice Master Level Spell
ESO's Werewolf ultimate/Skyrim's Werewolf power
ESO's Inferno Desto staff ultimate/Skyrim's fire Master level spell
ESO's Bat Swarm Ultimate/ Skyrim's vampire power (or is that a spell once in the vampire lord form?)
ESO's Solar Prism Ultimate/ Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC Sun Stone Power (must be reacquired before next use)
ESO's Magma Armor Ultimate/ Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC Earth stone Power (must be reacquired before next use)
ESO' Overload Ultimate/ Skyrim's Lightning Master Level spell
ESO's Panacea Ultimate/ Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC Water Stone power (must be reacquired before next use)


Are there others I'm missing? So far, I'm see that simplifying all these into one category seems like a good idea on teh part of ZOS.

There's also the racial powers from the single player games (like the Bosmer Call/Tame Animal power, or the Breton Dragonskin). In the early Betas the races had their own ultimates. (For example: the Khajiit had an ultimate that let them inflict fear on nearby enemies.) Those would line up with the practice of giving characters unique powers to mess around with.

Also, yeah, Batswarm was a Vampire Lord ability, though, technically the game classed it as a spell. It's supposed to be the domain of a specific vampire bloodline normally, but I forget the details off hand.

VaranisArano

Yeah, I ignored the Racial Powers because most of those got transformed into the Racial Passives in one form or another, plus they were limited by race. I don't think that Ultimates which are reusable as soon as the player regenerates ultimate points through combat or other actions track particularly well to most Powers granted by race or standing stones that are useable once a day. Ultimates seem to be intended to be much more dynamic than that.

Aliyavana

Hahahhah

Gnortranermara

VaranisArano wrote: »

Yeah, I ignored the Racial Powers because most of those got transformed into the Racial Passives in one form or another, plus they were limited by race. I don't think that Ultimates which are reusable as soon as the player regenerates ultimate points through combat or other actions track particularly well to most Powers granted by race or standing stones that are useable once a day. Ultimates seem to be intended to be much more dynamic than that.

Greater Powers were usable once a day (generally free to cast), while Lesser Powers were reusable (generally at a cost). The mechanics of ESO make the Greater/Lesser distinction unnecessary, but Powers is still the most accurate, lore-friendly, and genre-appropriate term.

Velaethia

Why... why does it matter?