What to do about Ghost Traders?

kargen27

jssriot wrote: »

It's an issue on the PC-NA too. Honestly I don't know what they should do about that wouldn't be disruptive to the present bidding system and tax guilds more for getting a spot. For now just find out the main guild that's running those dummy guilds and not buy anything from their real trader. If it's in a popular guild trader city it's most likely one of the other guilds there so it's not hard to find out--hell, ask in zone chat, "Who here is the sister guild of X guild." Someone usually knows and will tell or whisper it to you.

I think the solution is locking the trader for the week. When a guild wins the bid it is theirs for the week whether they continue to exist or not.

Tyralbin

Ghost traders exist I have been asked to take part in a ghost guild. Having 5 guilds I declined anyway (and I don't agree with it so wouldn't join anyway).

Unfortunately, until ZOS decide to make comment or do something about it this is not against TOCs and therefore not illegal in anyway.

I myself don't think it is good either as in some cases it is driving away players.

So yes ghost traders do exist.

Facefister

AlnilamE wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

And people whine and moan about the so-called "economy". This game needs a global guild trader for everyone.

No, it doesn't. There are other games for that if that's your thing.

Then don't whine about ghost traders or bots.

Glurin

AlnilamE wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

Global trade house + alphabetical search option end of story be rid of all traders and guild dues.

And a 35% marketplace tax to work as a gold sink?

Either way, no.

The solution to this problem is to make it impossible for a guild to disband if they hold a trader.

That is actually a rather simple and elegant solution. Won't stop the ones buying up traders just to block competition, but it would bring a dead stop to flipping traders, which is a huge contributor to bid prices.

SteveCampsOut

Nestor wrote: »

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

The sole purpose of this is to win a spot and sell that spot to someone else to make a profit off of it. Anyone who offers a higher price than what they paid for, the Ghost Trader that owns it will relinquish the spot and let the one who paid them for the trade grab the trader right after.

That is not going to work. You can't relinquish your Kiosk, you rent it for the week. It then goes out for public bidding again. How are they going to stop anyone from Bidding on the Kiosk other than their "customer".

So, anyone who pays for this spot is a fool, both the one thinking they are selling it, and the one who buys it, then can't use it this week, only to have to bid against everyone else for the kiosk next week.

You relinquish the trader by disbanding the guild and it pops up for hire.

Jeremy

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

Last night on PS4 NA, there was a Ghost Trader in Elden Root called "Get In My Van". Is there an appropriate way to deal with this? Seems really uncalled for.

Edit: For those who DON'T know what a Ghost Trader is: A Ghost Trader is a guild that bet and paid for a trader, usually in a capitol city, and will sell nothing in their store. The sole purpose of this is to win a spot and sell that spot to someone else to make a profit off of it. Anyone who offers a higher price than what they paid for, the Ghost Trader that owns it will relinquish the spot and let the one who paid them for the trade grab the trader right after.

What a creepy name for a guild. lol

EC_Rob

The simple and only way to fix this issue is to close the traders after they have been hired for that week. Traders whom have not been bid on should remain open. Or, guilds that own a trader shouldnt be allowed to disband.

kargen27

Glurin wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Mettaricana wrote: »

Global trade house + alphabetical search option end of story be rid of all traders and guild dues.

And a 35% marketplace tax to work as a gold sink?

Either way, no.

The solution to this problem is to make it impossible for a guild to disband if they hold a trader.

That is actually a rather simple and elegant solution. Won't stop the ones buying up traders just to block competition, but it would bring a dead stop to flipping traders, which is a huge contributor to bid prices.

I doubt buying up trades to block competition happens in any amount to be of concern. The cost isn't justified by the perceived benefits. They might be able to get one or two out of the way traders but those traders really are not competition for the guilds that have the high traffic spots. The millions they would need to spend to get an actual competitors spot isn't worth the cost.

weedgenius

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

Last night on PS4 NA, there was a Ghost Trader in Elden Root called "Get In My Van". Is there an appropriate way to deal with this? Seems really uncalled for.

Edit: For those who DON'T know what a Ghost Trader is: A Ghost Trader is a guild that bet and paid for a trader, usually in a capitol city, and will sell nothing in their store. The sole purpose of this is to win a spot and sell that spot to someone else to make a profit off of it. Anyone who offers a higher price than what they paid for, the Ghost Trader that owns it will relinquish the spot and let the one who paid them for the trade grab the trader right after.

I don't think anything should be done about that. It's part of the game that any guild with at least 50 members can make bets on hiring a trader. There are no requirements for the motivations behind wanting to hire the trader, neither do I think that there should be. Yes it can be annoying, but so is many a competetive game/sports when your opponent outsmarts you

It is against ToS to trade game goods for real world money/goods. An argument can be made that a trader spot, which requires you to spend in-game gold to obtain at first, is a “game good.” Some of these ghost traders sell the spots for cash or things like PS4 gift cards. See this comment from a GM of a smaller trading guild in an older thread about ghost bids:

jazsper77 wrote: »

Let's be clear how bad this in PS4 NA,
A GM I know came with his Daughter to meet myself and my kiddo for midnight bowling.

It was about 11:30 on a Sunday night when he is hosting a shotgun bid on a Rawl Ghost Trader on his dam cell phone.
He got 8 million for the spot and 2 $50.00 PSN CARDS.
He said he bid 3.5 mill on the spot, so as you can see it's a money making scheme. This is NOT WHAT the Trader system was meant to work.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

volkeswagon wrote: »

There is an easy fix. If a guild disbands the trader should remain empty until the following week.

I have to disagree that this is some kind of improvement. It still stops legitimate trade guilds from getting the spot, and additionally the trader is useless for shoppers until the next week. I suppose you could have the second-place bidder get it, but then you might still get ghosts claiming spots to extort gold out of said second-place bidder.

I was thinking about adding a requirement to bidding that the guild needs to have, say, 1000 things for sale or more in order to bid. (Or whatever a reasonable number of things for an active trade guild would be.) And IIRC someone suggested before having an age requirement - the guild has to be X amount of time old in order to bid. Another thing I've seen suggested before was having NPC guild traders you could place in your house - it wouldn't stop the ghost traders but might at least give another outlet to sell through.

MISTRESS_DARKNESb14a_ESO

If we went to a one world vender, to sell and buy we would not see the ghost venders, or guilds having to grind to keep the spot...
A few weeks back a UA guild was announcing their server was full and they were coming here to branch out.. they set up a umbrella of guilds and take over the merchants sew them up. We are also seeing a extremely strong amount of bots and farmers We report but the next day they are still there..
Another reason for a world vender.. at bank... buy and sell... sales go to mail like normal.

supaskrub

Nestor wrote: »

Here is the other complication in your theory. It takes 50 Members to unlock a Guild Store. You can't get a Kiosk, from what I understand, unless you have a Guild Store.

So, where are they getting these 50 members on an Adhoc Basis? Most people in the game, at least those in trading guilds, are full up on their guild rosters.

It’s easy.., The gm generally starts off the new guild in his main account just before free play events, goes to Davon’s Watch and other starter areas and mass recruits low level players. After free play has ended most don’t return to the game but remain in the guild. GM then puts one of his alt accounts in as GM and puts the guild to sleep (inactive) until it’s required.

Elsonso

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

volkeswagon wrote: »

There is an easy fix. If a guild disbands the trader should remain empty until the following week.

I have to disagree that this is some kind of improvement. It still stops legitimate trade guilds from getting the spot, and additionally the trader is useless for shoppers until the next week. I suppose you could have the second-place bidder get it, but then you might still get ghosts claiming spots to extort gold out of said second-place bidder.

I was thinking about adding a requirement to bidding that the guild needs to have, say, 1000 things for sale or more in order to bid. (Or whatever a reasonable number of things for an active trade guild would be.) And IIRC someone suggested before having an age requirement - the guild has to be X amount of time old in order to bid. Another thing I've seen suggested before was having NPC guild traders you could place in your house - it wouldn't stop the ghost traders but might at least give another outlet to sell through.

Another thing might be that when the guild disbands, the kiosk becomes available for whatever it cost the last time it was purchased and retained.

DaveMoeDee

Nocturnal_Annoyance wrote: »

Everyone complains about these... but if you're in a major trading guild you would complain a lot more if your guild didn't have a trader for the week.

What an odd comment.

The Ghost Trader is a reason a guild didn't get a kiosk.

Jaraal

jssriot wrote: »

IIRC there's a window to hire traders too. I've see dummy guilds sit on a spot for a whole week. Their purpose to to hog one spot and force shoppers in that city to go the the main guild. For example in Rawl there's 5 spots in hte city itself, and if one spot in hogged by a dummy guild, like it was once in NA-PC last year by a guild alliance i shall not name bc ZOS gets cranky about that, you have only 4 now to shop from, one being the dummy guild's sister guild. That's usually the point--to artificially limit players' options in favor of their main guild.

Are you saying people actually window shop random traders, rather than looking up exact prices on TTC and going directly to a specified trader? Who has time for that?

Saucy_Jack

Jaraal wrote: »

Are you saying people actually window shop random traders, rather than looking up exact prices on TTC and going directly to a specified trader? Who has time for that?

Sometimes. As of now I'm missing about 45 furniture plans. I can either do a quick search in the kiosks for plans using the AGS addon with knowledge set to "unknown", or I can open 45 tabs of TTC to see maybe one good deal that I most likely missed because I was too busy opening 45 tabs of TTC.

Siohwenoeht

Jaraal wrote: »

jssriot wrote: »

IIRC there's a window to hire traders too. I've see dummy guilds sit on a spot for a whole week. Their purpose to to hog one spot and force shoppers in that city to go the the main guild. For example in Rawl there's 5 spots in hte city itself, and if one spot in hogged by a dummy guild, like it was once in NA-PC last year by a guild alliance i shall not name bc ZOS gets cranky about that, you have only 4 now to shop from, one being the dummy guild's sister guild. That's usually the point--to artificially limit players' options in favor of their main guild.

Are you saying people actually window shop random traders, rather than looking up exact prices on TTC and going directly to a specified trader? Who has time for that?

And us console folks don't have add-ons so the window shopping is the only choice.

D0PAMINE

starkerealm wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

The sole purpose of this is to win a spot and sell that spot to someone else to make a profit off of it. Anyone who offers a higher price than what they paid for, the Ghost Trader that owns it will relinquish the spot and let the one who paid them for the trade grab the trader right after.

That is not going to work. You can't relinquish your Kiosk, you rent it for the week. It then goes out for public bidding again. How are they going to stop anyone from Bidding on the Kiosk other than their "customer".

So, anyone who pays for this spot is a fool, both the one thinking they are selling it, and the one who buys it, then can't use it this week, only to have to bid against everyone else for the kiosk next week.

They disband the ghost guild, which then immediately opens the trader up to anyone who wants to buy it. At that point, bidding 1g will instantly lock the trader in for your guild.

Every time I read one of your posts I obtain info I never knew. Im going to harvest your brain and keep it frozen somewhere or something.

weedgenius

Jaraal wrote: »

jssriot wrote: »

IIRC there's a window to hire traders too. I've see dummy guilds sit on a spot for a whole week. Their purpose to to hog one spot and force shoppers in that city to go the the main guild. For example in Rawl there's 5 spots in hte city itself, and if one spot in hogged by a dummy guild, like it was once in NA-PC last year by a guild alliance i shall not name bc ZOS gets cranky about that, you have only 4 now to shop from, one being the dummy guild's sister guild. That's usually the point--to artificially limit players' options in favor of their main guild.

Are you saying people actually window shop random traders, rather than looking up exact prices on TTC and going directly to a specified trader? Who has time for that?

One word: console

pdblake

I still don't get this need to trade and make millions. It's a game for crying out loud. Do people not get enough stress in real life with this kind of thing?

Just play the game and have fun.

A simple, global trader would solve all this then everyone could buy and sell, guild or not.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Jaraal wrote: »

Are you saying people actually window shop random traders, rather than looking up exact prices on TTC and going directly to a specified trader? Who has time for that?

*raises hand*

pdblake wrote: »

I still don't get this need to trade and make millions. It's a game for crying out loud. Do people not get enough stress in real life with this kind of thing?

Just play the game and have fun.

For some people the trade-and-make-millions bit IS fun.

pdblake

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Are you saying people actually window shop random traders, rather than looking up exact prices on TTC and going directly to a specified trader? Who has time for that?

*raises hand*

pdblake wrote: »

I still don't get this need to trade and make millions. It's a game for crying out loud. Do people not get enough stress in real life with this kind of thing?

Just play the game and have fun.

For some people the trade-and-make-millions bit IS fun.

Judging by the amount of complaints on here lately it sounds more stress than fun, but whatever floats your boat.

Kuramas9tails

pdblake wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Are you saying people actually window shop random traders, rather than looking up exact prices on TTC and going directly to a specified trader? Who has time for that?

*raises hand*

pdblake wrote: »

I still don't get this need to trade and make millions. It's a game for crying out loud. Do people not get enough stress in real life with this kind of thing?

Just play the game and have fun.

For some people the trade-and-make-millions bit IS fun.

Judging by the amount of complaints on here lately it sounds more stress than fun, but whatever floats your boat.

Well, going to a major city to search for items you need only to find a guild with nothing to sell is a bit....annoying. It's hard enough finding Bugloss on PS4 in major city traders.

Edit: Sorry, DECENTLY priced Bugloss

Defilted

I have never seen a empty trader on XBOX NA.

pdblake

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

pdblake wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Are you saying people actually window shop random traders, rather than looking up exact prices on TTC and going directly to a specified trader? Who has time for that?

*raises hand*

pdblake wrote: »

I still don't get this need to trade and make millions. It's a game for crying out loud. Do people not get enough stress in real life with this kind of thing?

Just play the game and have fun.

For some people the trade-and-make-millions bit IS fun.

Judging by the amount of complaints on here lately it sounds more stress than fun, but whatever floats your boat.

Well, going to a major city to search for items you need only to find a guild with nothing to sell is a bit....annoying. It's hard enough finding Bugloss on PS4 in major city traders.

Edit: Sorry, DECENTLY priced Bugloss

So all the more reason to have a central trader. No more empty stores.

purple-magicb16_ESO

Cryptical wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

they don't care, i brought this up several weeks in a row with before and after shots of guilds with no items in the store yet nada.

Code changes don’t happen overnight, or over a few weeks. It’s not a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants thing. It’s done more cautiously like modding a million dollar car while it’s cruising down the highway.

First, a problem is brought up. A decision is made as to just how important is the problem, compared to all the other things clamoring for attention. Some investigation is done to determine the nature of the issue, in more exact terms than most on the forum seem capable. For example: I recently was trying to help them diagnose a bug where I am listing things on a guild that I don’t belong to, through their trader or rarely through a bank. It’s only happened to me a few times, it’s only happened to one other player when I mentioned it, and it’s clearly not breaking the game - so I’m not at all surprised that the email chain was going slowly. They have bigger issues, the 6th guild thing barely merits any attention at all.

Second, people have a meeting to come up with ideas that address the exact issue with zero to minimal side effects. A list of the ideas of the brainstorming session is compiled.

Third, someone or a small group goes through exploring all the ideas, rejecting any that seemed good but would actually have calamitous effects.

Fourth, results of the exploration are returned to the whole group in the first meeting. Recommendations are made on which would be the most promising and which the most dangerous or complicated.

Fifth, start coding rough drafts. When several improvement cycles have gone past several people’s eyes and generated something that should function, put it in an internal test server and try to break it. Lather, rinse, repeat until ready to put it on the public test server.

Sixth, When enough items have made it through step 5, put the whole thing on an internal test server to check that the different patches at least coexist with each other. Work those bugs internally.

Seventh, finally it’s time to push it to the public test server. Anything that made it this far is highly likely to be simple typo errors or some odd issue that only appeared because of the sheer number of people pushing all those keys, like the infinite monkeys on infinite computers would eventually result in one of them typing the complete works of Shakespeare.

And then their real “fun” begins, as the pc public gets to the task of making the next list of things for step 1.

It doesn't need to be a code change. Sometimes the simplest answer is stari g you right in the face. When the ghost guild disbands, simply don't allow the kiosk to be reassigned. Yep, keep it empty for that week. EZPZ.

Kuramas9tails

pdblake wrote: »

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

pdblake wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Are you saying people actually window shop random traders, rather than looking up exact prices on TTC and going directly to a specified trader? Who has time for that?

*raises hand*

pdblake wrote: »

I still don't get this need to trade and make millions. It's a game for crying out loud. Do people not get enough stress in real life with this kind of thing?

Just play the game and have fun.

For some people the trade-and-make-millions bit IS fun.

Judging by the amount of complaints on here lately it sounds more stress than fun, but whatever floats your boat.

Well, going to a major city to search for items you need only to find a guild with nothing to sell is a bit....annoying. It's hard enough finding Bugloss on PS4 in major city traders.

Edit: Sorry, DECENTLY priced Bugloss

So all the more reason to have a central trader. No more empty stores.

One can only hope. ZOS hasn't even made a better filtering system for traders.

Jaraal

purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »

It doesn't need to be a code change. Sometimes the simplest answer is stari g you right in the face. When the ghost guild disbands, simply don't allow the kiosk to be reassigned. Yep, keep it empty for that week. EZPZ.

Or give first opportunity to second place bidder for a short time, then third highest, etc.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »

It doesn't need to be a code change. Sometimes the simplest answer is stari g you right in the face. When the ghost guild disbands, simply don't allow the kiosk to be reassigned. Yep, keep it empty for that week. EZPZ.

Again, that doesn't solve the issue of legitimate guilds being able to get access to the traders instead of ghosts and shoppers not being able to buy anything because the ghosts don't sell anything. If the people using the ghosts to take the traders are doing it to 1) troll or 2) funnel people to their trader by blocking competitors, they aren't going to be discouraged by this 'solution' at all, because the effect on the market will be no different than just leaving the ghost there for the week.

kargen27

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »

It doesn't need to be a code change. Sometimes the simplest answer is stari g you right in the face. When the ghost guild disbands, simply don't allow the kiosk to be reassigned. Yep, keep it empty for that week. EZPZ.

Again, that doesn't solve the issue of legitimate guilds being able to get access to the traders instead of ghosts and shoppers not being able to buy anything because the ghosts don't sell anything. If the people using the ghosts to take the traders are doing it to 1) troll or 2) funnel people to their trader by blocking competitors, they aren't going to be discouraged by this 'solution' at all, because the effect on the market will be no different than just leaving the ghost there for the week.

It would change the biggest issues with the problem. Guilds bidding on secondary locations in case they lose their preferred bid and guilds bidding on traders with the hope of flipping that trader. It simply isn't cost effective for a guild to pay for a trader that is going to be empty. When you see a trader that has little to nothing in it chances are a social guild got lucky and won the bid. Guild members the first week are caught off guard and are not prepared to quickly get items into the trader. I know when the social guild I am in got a trader players were scrambling because many had used the thirty slots they have for listing items as a place to stick things at one gold each for guild members instead of cluttering up the bank. 2nd week we did a little better. Didn't get the trader week three.