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Bar Swapping and Poison Injection (and some stuff about Long Shots)
LiquidPony
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Just copy-pasting this from a discussion in another thread, but I thought it was interesting enough to merit its own thread over here in the mechanics forum ...
The debate being had was: do the DoT ticks of Poison Injection increase if you bar-swap out of Poison Injection so that the arrow impacts the target while you are on your DW bar (where you presumably have better stats)? I've tested it before (but it's been a long time), and that definitely used to be the case. In fact, over in Jeckll's fantastic stamblade guide, he always advised swapping out of Poison Injection and included a handy spreadsheet that differentiated how stats were used for single target DoTs and ground targeted AoE DoTs.
As a few people pointed out in the other discussion, an incremental patch (v3.1.7) made a change specifically to Poison Injection: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4456953#Comment_4456953
So this is on PTS, with a Redguard stamsorc using 5 x Automaton (all armor), 5 x VO (Jewelry + DW weapons), 2 x Selene, Precise Maelstrom bow.
Buffed with Weapon Power potion stats:
Bow bar:
Max Stam: 40,683
Weapon Damage: 3179
Weapon Critical: 60.3%
DW bar:
Max Stam: 40,683
Weapon Damage: 4501
Weapon Critical: 57.1%
Format of results is: [initial impact non-crit/Initial impact crit], [non-crit tick/crit tick]
Stay on bow bar:
4308/7195, 1686/2816
Impact on bow bar, subsequent ticks on DW bar:
4308/7195, 1972/3294
Fire on bow bar, impact on DW bar:
4244/7088, 1972/3294
Obviously not a definitive test but I think it clearly demonstrates that the Poison Injection ticks don't change if you swap to your DW bar before impact.
The really weird thing here is the reduced damage of the impact of Poison Injection if I swap before impact. I would expect the initial impact to hit for about 5040/8420 (roughly a 17% increase) but instead I'm seeing roughly a 1.5% damage loss by doing so. Took me a minute to figure it out but this is happening because of the Bow passive Long Shots. So it appears that the initial impact of Poison Injection always calculates damage with your bow bar stats regardless of what bar you are on when it impacts that target, and the subsequent DoT ticks are always calculated dynamically regardless of what bar you are on when the initial impact occurred.
The interesting thing here is Long Shots. Even well within melee range you get a small damage buff from this passive ... it seems to me that the damage increase starts outside of about 2 meters and is roughly 1.5% there, and scaling up to the 12% boost at max range. It's also very interesting that as you move closer/further from the target while on your bow bar the DoT ticks from Poison Injection scale with Long Shots based on distance. However, if you are on your DW bar, the damage is the same every tick regardless of your distance from the target. The same is true of Endless Hail. Which means that it might technically be optimal to move away from the target while on the bow bar for a small DPS boost.
On the other hand, Razor Caltrops hits harder on the initial impact damage if you throw it on the bow bar and swap before impact, which leads me to believe that it might actually be optimal to swap out of Caltrops now (e.g., Hail-->Trap-->LA Poison Inject-->LA Caltrops swap).
The debate being had was: do the DoT ticks of Poison Injection increase if you bar-swap out of Poison Injection so that the arrow impacts the target while you are on your DW bar (where you presumably have better stats)? I've tested it before (but it's been a long time), and that definitely used to be the case. In fact, over in Jeckll's fantastic stamblade guide, he always advised swapping out of Poison Injection and included a handy spreadsheet that differentiated how stats were used for single target DoTs and ground targeted AoE DoTs.
As a few people pointed out in the other discussion, an incremental patch (v3.1.7) made a change specifically to Poison Injection: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4456953#Comment_4456953
So this is on PTS, with a Redguard stamsorc using 5 x Automaton (all armor), 5 x VO (Jewelry + DW weapons), 2 x Selene, Precise Maelstrom bow.
Buffed with Weapon Power potion stats:
Bow bar:
Max Stam: 40,683
Weapon Damage: 3179
Weapon Critical: 60.3%
DW bar:
Max Stam: 40,683
Weapon Damage: 4501
Weapon Critical: 57.1%
Format of results is: [initial impact non-crit/Initial impact crit], [non-crit tick/crit tick]
Stay on bow bar:
4308/7195, 1686/2816
Impact on bow bar, subsequent ticks on DW bar:
4308/7195, 1972/3294
Fire on bow bar, impact on DW bar:
4244/7088, 1972/3294
Obviously not a definitive test but I think it clearly demonstrates that the Poison Injection ticks don't change if you swap to your DW bar before impact.
The really weird thing here is the reduced damage of the impact of Poison Injection if I swap before impact. I would expect the initial impact to hit for about 5040/8420 (roughly a 17% increase) but instead I'm seeing roughly a 1.5% damage loss by doing so. Took me a minute to figure it out but this is happening because of the Bow passive Long Shots. So it appears that the initial impact of Poison Injection always calculates damage with your bow bar stats regardless of what bar you are on when it impacts that target, and the subsequent DoT ticks are always calculated dynamically regardless of what bar you are on when the initial impact occurred.
The interesting thing here is Long Shots. Even well within melee range you get a small damage buff from this passive ... it seems to me that the damage increase starts outside of about 2 meters and is roughly 1.5% there, and scaling up to the 12% boost at max range. It's also very interesting that as you move closer/further from the target while on your bow bar the DoT ticks from Poison Injection scale with Long Shots based on distance. However, if you are on your DW bar, the damage is the same every tick regardless of your distance from the target. The same is true of Endless Hail. Which means that it might technically be optimal to move away from the target while on the bow bar for a small DPS boost.
On the other hand, Razor Caltrops hits harder on the initial impact damage if you throw it on the bow bar and swap before impact, which leads me to believe that it might actually be optimal to swap out of Caltrops now (e.g., Hail-->Trap-->LA Poison Inject-->LA Caltrops swap).
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Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »Just copy-pasting this from a discussion in another thread, but I thought it was interesting enough to merit its own thread over here in the mechanics forum ...
The debate being had was: do the DoT ticks of Poison Injection increase if you bar-swap out of Poison Injection so that the arrow impacts the target while you are on your DW bar (where you presumably have better stats)? I've tested it before (but it's been a long time), and that definitely used to be the case. In fact, over in Jeckll's fantastic stamblade guide, he always advised swapping out of Poison Injection and included a handy spreadsheet that differentiated how stats were used for single target DoTs and ground targeted AoE DoTs.
As a few people pointed out in the other discussion, an incremental patch (v3.1.7) made a change specifically to Poison Injection: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4456953#Comment_4456953
So this is on PTS, with a Redguard stamsorc using 5 x Automaton (all armor), 5 x VO (Jewelry + DW weapons), 2 x Selene, Precise Maelstrom bow.
Buffed with Weapon Power potion stats:
Bow bar:
Max Stam: 40,683
Weapon Damage: 3179
Weapon Critical: 60.3%
DW bar:
Max Stam: 40,683
Weapon Damage: 4501
Weapon Critical: 57.1%
Format of results is: [initial impact non-crit/Initial impact crit], [non-crit tick/crit tick]
Stay on bow bar:
4308/7195, 1686/2816
Impact on bow bar, subsequent ticks on DW bar:
4308/7195, 1972/3294
Fire on bow bar, impact on DW bar:
4244/7088, 1972/3294
Obviously not a definitive test but I think it clearly demonstrates that the Poison Injection ticks don't change if you swap to your DW bar before impact.
The really weird thing here is the reduced damage of the impact of Poison Injection if I swap before impact. I would expect the initial impact to hit for about 5040/8420 (roughly a 17% increase) but instead I'm seeing roughly a 1.5% damage loss by doing so. Took me a minute to figure it out but this is happening because of the Bow passive Long Shots. So it appears that the initial impact of Poison Injection always calculates damage with your bow bar stats regardless of what bar you are on when it impacts that target, and the subsequent DoT ticks are always calculated dynamically regardless of what bar you are on when the initial impact occurred.
The interesting thing here is Long Shots. Even well within melee range you get a small damage buff from this passive ... it seems to me that the damage increase starts outside of about 2 meters and is roughly 1.5% there, and scaling up to the 12% boost at max range. It's also very interesting that as you move closer/further from the target while on your bow bar the DoT ticks from Poison Injection scale with Long Shots based on distance. However, if you are on your DW bar, the damage is the same every tick regardless of your distance from the target. The same is true of Endless Hail. Which means that it might technically be optimal to move away from the target while on the bow bar for a small DPS boost.
On the other hand, Razor Caltrops hits harder on the initial impact damage if you throw it on the bow bar and swap before impact, which leads me to believe that it might actually be optimal to swap out of Caltrops now (e.g., Hail-->Trap-->LA Poison Inject-->LA Caltrops swap).
Trap beast is another impact bar dot. It hasn't been zos'd in quite a while so you should definitely see a dps increase. The test I did was let it impact dw bar, barswap, wait until it rearms amd impacts, swap to dw.
I was seeing a noticable difference in damage when impacted on dw. I find it particularly interesting how poison injection has changed, it looks like it's been ninja nerfed. Homestead patch my PI ticks would critical for almost 45k(!) At execute.
You'd think if the dot was dynamic the impact bar would have a higher initial hit. Since the passive is no longer active it's definitely been adjusted for dualwield, yet doing less damage. It definitely looks like they snuck in a nerf here. I'm going to put on a tinfoil hat here for sec and wonder if the arbitrary break in execute damage (somethimg that mysteriously stopped working), and the unfixed bug from vma buff was a ninja nerf in how certain abilities work.
Edit: I do want to point out that the bug from vma daggers amd the bug regarding execute damage began on the same patch, and iirc they didn't do anything in morrowind, they just broke.
Edited by Ep1kMalware on February 17, 2018 10:51PM0 -
SmellyUnlimited✭✭✭✭A few patches ago, changes to Poison Inject completely bugged the Maelstrom Cruel Flurry 1-handers. Benefit from those is eaten by a SINGLE tick of poison injection, and then goes completely away.
It sort of makes sense that the poison from PI should be what your back-bar damage output is. The poison is already on the enemy, so it 'shouldn't' be affected by higher damage on bar swap. As you mentioned though @Ep1kMalware , it's not uniform (didn't know that about trap beast). Caltrops is buffed when you bar swap, as is Arrow Hail. Way too much ambiguity that needs to be clarified on DOT's that work and don't work this way.
Edited by SmellyUnlimited on February 18, 2018 1:21AMDO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)0 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭SmellyUnlimited wrote: »A few patches ago, changes to Poison Inject completely bugged the Maelstrom Cruel Flurry 1-handers. Benefit from those is eaten by a SINGLE tick of poison injection, and then goes completely away.
It sort of makes sense that the poison from PI should be what your back-bar damage output is. The poison is already on the enemy, so it 'shouldn't' be affected by higher damage on bar swap. As you mentioned though @Ep1kMalware , it's not uniform (didn't know that about trap beast). Caltrops is buffed when you bar swap, as is Arrow Hail. Way too much ambiguity that needs to be clarified on DOT's that work and don't work this way.
Well here's the crazy thing about impact bar dots. If it is impacted on a stronger bar, like dual weild, and you swap to a weaker bar, like bow, it keeps the buff from dw. This includes passive skill buffs (dawnbreaker), set bonuses, etc.
Wheras current bar dots, like hail or blockade, will scale softely when you barswap. All dots scale a little, but it's not going to directly benefit from set bonuses/crit modifiers/weapon traits/ flawless dawnbreaker, etc. it'll be from crap like max stam/crit chance/base weapon dmg.Edited by Ep1kMalware on February 18, 2018 7:02AM1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Hey @LiquidPony how hard would it be for you to just screen shot some parses instead of typing out the numbers? Use combat metrics like everyone else does.
like this-
did these test on my stam sorc.
you can plainly see that the with the stat changes, poison injection dot damage also changes.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on February 18, 2018 8:21AM0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Hey @LiquidPony how hard would it be for you to just screen shot some parses instead of typing out the numbers? Use combat metrics like everyone else does.
like this-
did these test on my stam sorc.
you can plainly see that the with the stat changes, poison injection dot damage also changes.
Hey @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO,
The numbers are from combat metrics. I wanted it in text form so that I could easily copypasta the information elsewhere. It makes no difference.
You're free to post your own thread with screenshots if you so desire. You could even make the extra effort and record videos with CMX logging to chat, as that would certainly be the most comprehensive way to convey the relevant information to everyone.
None of that is strictly necessary since we came to the same conclusion, though.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭All DoTs (afaik) scale based on your current bar (regardless of which bar they impact on).
Tested with: Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Poison Injection, Blood Craze, Venomous Claws, Rearming Trap0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭All DoTs (afaik) scale based on your current bar (regardless of which bar they impact on).
Tested with: Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Poison Injection, Blood Craze, Venomous Claws, Rearming Trap
You are correct except for poison injection. That recalculates every tick based on your bar stats, like a ground based AOE dot. As I showed and @LiquidPony took the long way round to explain.
Edit: I missread, you meant all you listed act like posion injection and that is not accurate as far as I know. I don't have a Stam dk to test those so if you could provide some screenshots of them that would be great.
Also as far as I can tell the tl:dr to the op is that you lose passives from the weapon line if you don't have that weapon out.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on February 18, 2018 11:25AM1 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭All DoTs (afaik) scale based on your current bar (regardless of which bar they impact on).
Tested with: Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Poison Injection, Blood Craze, Venomous Claws, Rearming Trap
Retest with trap
The test I did earlier I had a lvl3 white resto staff and nirn vma 2h sword.
Impacting on 2h bar, swapping to noobstick bar the dot stayed about the same. The reverse was also true, when impacting on noobstick and swapping to 2h the damage stayed low.Edited by Ep1kMalware on February 18, 2018 11:21AM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ep1kMalware wrote: »All DoTs (afaik) scale based on your current bar (regardless of which bar they impact on).
Tested with: Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Poison Injection, Blood Craze, Venomous Claws, Rearming Trap
Retest with trap
The test I did earlier I had a lvl3 white resto staff and nirn vma 2h sword.
Impacting on 2h bar, swapping to noobstick bar the dot stayed about the same. The reverse was also true, when impacting on noobstick and swapping to 2h the damage stayed low.
Fresh from Live server.Edited by DDuke on February 18, 2018 11:43AM2 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭^freaking crazy! I'm on console, so I don't have any addons like that. But I'm off work in about 3hrs so perhaps I can record what I'm seeing. If we're getting different results it'd be neat to collaberate our findings and see if zenimax is making undocumented changes in how certain abilities work.1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ep1kMalware wrote: »^freaking crazy! I'm on console, so I don't have any addons like that. But I'm off work in about 3hrs so perhaps I can record what I'm seeing. If we're getting different results it'd be neat to collaberate our findings and see if zenimax is making undocumented changes in how certain abilities work.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on February 18, 2018 1:17PM0 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zos definitely ninja nerfed these skills. Not by tampering with tooltips, but by changing how they calculate damage altogether.Ep1kMalware wrote: »All DoTs (afaik) scale based on your current bar (regardless of which bar they impact on).
Tested with: Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Poison Injection, Blood Craze, Venomous Claws, Rearming Trap
Retest with trap
The test I did earlier I had a lvl3 white resto staff and nirn vma 2h sword.
Impacting on 2h bar, swapping to noobstick bar the dot stayed about the same. The reverse was also true, when impacting on noobstick and swapping to 2h the damage stayed low.
Fresh from Live server.
Let it be shown that this skill got stealth changed on pc live, this is from ps4na live.
https://youtu.be/TbYGWO7ZlMc 0 -
SmellyUnlimited✭✭✭✭Ep1kMalware wrote: »Zos definitely ninja nerfed these skills. Not by tampering with tooltips, but by changing how they calculate damage altogether.Ep1kMalware wrote: »All DoTs (afaik) scale based on your current bar (regardless of which bar they impact on).
Tested with: Burning Embers, Engulfing Flames, Poison Injection, Blood Craze, Venomous Claws, Rearming Trap
Retest with trap
The test I did earlier I had a lvl3 white resto staff and nirn vma 2h sword.
Impacting on 2h bar, swapping to noobstick bar the dot stayed about the same. The reverse was also true, when impacting on noobstick and swapping to 2h the damage stayed low.
Fresh from Live server.
Let it be shown that this skill got stealth changed on pc live, this is from ps4na live.https://youtu.be/TbYGWO7ZlMc
Are we watching the same video? The numbers are more or less the same when you swap. Or was that what you were saying?DO. NOT. WIPE. (in game OR out!)0