Fang Lair 2nd Boss (Bone Menagerie, Featuring Exploding Doggies)

Sabbathius

Has anyone found a graceful or noob-friendly way of doing this one? I'm getting pretty fed up with full groups of CP720s who consistently fail here, and I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing.

From my perspective, I'm a tank. I grab the bear and stack him on Guar. I usually attract the cat's attention for a while, but he eventually leaps away at the farthest (it seems) party member. The problem is dogs. Aside from a few skilled DPS players who are able to move and DPS at the same time, the rest just can't do it. They run around until the accumulate a dozen dogs, trip over one and die.

I can pretty consistently get doggies to blow up without getting myself killed. But when I move, bear moves, and DPS drops to zero (noob DPS can't follow). There's also the risk of a screw-up where bear attack and doggies combine.

One thing I noticed - the three mini-bosses seem to be able to damage the doggies (and perhaps vice versa)? That is, getting doggies near bear when he's swinging seems to pop the doggies very easily. Some of the best success I had was just park my ass (and bear) near doggie spawn, and deal with them myself before they spread. But that was problematic because my group would for some stupefying reason walk the cat halfway across the arena, then he heaps on me since I'm farthest away, and then the dogs spawn and bear does his cleave.

Anyway, any pointers when dealing with PUGs wiping on Menagerie? Am I missing something obvious? I know I shouldn't PUG, but sometimes guildies aren't on, or not interested. Or just stop PUGging and save myself the headache?

Koensol

I went in there with my group of friends, and we had 0 clue of the tactics. So at first we died a lot trying to find out the correct strategy through trial and error. We tried many things, from dd's kiting the dogs to trying to nuke them.

In the end, the best strategy we found was similar to what you yourself already described. Tank will stand next to dog spawn and tank boss there. The one who has aggro from the tiger brings it over to the boss, and you nuke both together. Kill the guar after that. When minibosses are down focus on boss. Tank will get attention from every pack of dogs and will suck up their suicide dmg. Everytime dogs spawn, melee dps will back off a bit until it is safe to return to boss again. Rinse repeat.

This was by far the most reliable strategy we tried. Just remember that at all times, tiger is nr. 1 kill priority.

Make2k15

The strategy what I've seen working with pugs (5 clears) is pretty much this:

Tank takes the bear, tiger and guar near the gate.
Healer is closer to the dire wolf spawning point and makes them explode (keeps shield up and wait next to them until they start emitting green smoke and then just dodge roll or sprint away).
DDs Will be on the gate side of the bosses. DPS the tiger down first before he charges at somebody (needs something like 40-50k total dps I think). After tiger down DPS bear and let the guar go down from aoe dmg. If the tiger revives take him down again asap.

ValkynSketha

Kite, kite 2, and further beyond kite 3.
Bring all 3 bosses together in whatever place you want and all group just dance around them in circles.

profundidob16_ESO

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Kite, kite 2, and further beyond kite 3.
Bring all 3 bosses together in whatever place you want and all group just dance around them in circles.

As stupid as this might sound when you first read it to alot of people I end up fully agreeing with this statement Over 20 different random groups now in this dogfight and the difference between the worst and best is staggering.

I cleared it both as healer and as tank multiple and then felt completely powerless when the other players were unable to....avoid red.

Staying together at center ensures that the one that is being jumped (unavoidable in low dps groups) is within shield charge range.

As tank I don't mind if they run the dogs through me. I just talon them and dodgroll or sidestep as they explode up in the bunch. Hell run everything through me for all I care. As healer same, run it past me, nothing 1 shots me there but yet I see players fallling besides me like paper cards nonstop, over and over and over and over again...

I've come to believe that there simply is no noob-failsafe tactic for this fight and that a little skill is actually required...

3 out of the 20 groups made it through btw, the other 17 ended up in disbanding...

Mureel

We did this: Healer (Me) tanks Bear (main boss), DPS whip on bear, and keep cat disabled, main tank handles dogs and guar.
Edited to add: I also rangetaunt cat (just use inner fire no need for tank gear or anything) when he pops to stop him jumping at the tank etc. He gets disabled in the cleave by the dps on the boss very fast. This part doesn't always work because I'm not a tank so I'm doing the best I can but he still sometime jumps. Still the dps just burst him down and it's only 2 times of this part or just about 2 if we're fast. Just remember to walk the boss out of any plants aoe because that's nasty.

The benefit to this also is that dps is so near me and main boss I can keep ele drain and combat prayer down constantly. Throw a bol at tank now and then if need be and that's it.

We finish fight under 2 mins every time.

profundidob16_ESO

Mureel wrote: »

We did this: Healer (Me) tanks Bear (main boss), DPS whip on bear, and keep cat disabled, main tank handles dogs and guar.

We finish fight under 2 mins ever time.

that's an amazing idea, I'm gonna try that out in pugs

SantieClaws

Exploding doggies you say ...

Does anyone perhaps have some video footage of this yes?

For research purposes of course. No there is no pleasure to be taken in seeing foul smelling beasts with breath like a midden exploding at all.

*slowly reaches for popcorn ...*

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Kanar

How about when the dog comes up to you, and you just instantly get knocked back and die before the dog even blows up? No blue flames, no red circle, just instant death the moment the dogs snout touches you. I guess it's lag?

DemonDruaga

Mureel wrote: »

We did this: Healer (Me) tanks Bear (main boss), DPS whip on bear, and keep cat disabled, main tank handles dogs and guar.

We finish fight under 2 mins ever time.

Sounds nice, did you wear anything special for that? Like heavy + 1h/shield?
Or can one hold the bear in a light armor setup?

Mureel

DemonDruaga wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

We did this: Healer (Me) tanks Bear (main boss), DPS whip on bear, and keep cat disabled, main tank handles dogs and guar.

We finish fight under 2 mins ever time.

Sounds nice, did you wear anything special for that? Like heavy + 1h/shield?
Or can one hold the bear in a light armor setup?

@DemonDruaga
Nope just did it in spc and worm. Used harness magicka and kept warhorn up with tank and springs/combat prayer/ele and some orbs. I lose taunt on cat 1-2 times but can keep bear easy. He does not hit hard, even his rear up thing is easy. Think last boss VDSA - that's where I got the idea.

Mureel

Kanar wrote: »

How about when the dog comes up to you, and you just instantly get knocked back and die before the dog even blows up? No blue flames, no red circle, just instant death the moment the dogs snout touches you. I guess it's lag?

@Kanar
That is lag certainly. We park main tank on their spawn point - and he or she (we have 2 that we do this with) boops the dogs and roll dodge. The first couple times had some 'when to roll' deaths but once you get the time between boop and blue then you cannot fail it anymore unless lag or stack the aoes. If a dog comes to us, can happen, the dps will boop and roll before they can get to me as I am with my back to their left of the exit door. That gives me room to move out to my left/group right, if I get a spore thing spawn on me.

Mureel

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Kite, kite 2, and further beyond kite 3.
Bring all 3 bosses together in whatever place you want and all group just dance around them in circles.

As stupid as this might sound when you first read it to alot of people I end up fully agreeing with this statement Over 20 different random groups now in this dogfight and the difference between the worst and best is staggering.

I cleared it both as healer and as tank multiple and then felt completely powerless when the other players were unable to....avoid red.

Staying together at center ensures that the one that is being jumped (unavoidable in low dps groups) is within shield charge range.

As tank I don't mind if they run the dogs through me. I just talon them and dodgroll or sidestep as they explode up in the bunch. Hell run everything through me for all I care. As healer same, run it past me, nothing 1 shots me there but yet I see players fallling besides me like paper cards nonstop, over and over and over and over again...

I've come to believe that there simply is no noob-failsafe tactic for this fight and that a little skill is actually required...

3 out of the 20 groups made it through btw, the other 17 ended up in disbanding...

@profundidob16_ESO

See my post up there for healer tank main boss strat. LOL! Never mind!! xD

profundidob16_ESO

I know it sounds funny if you list things up that way but I saw your tactic only right after that and I find it an interesting tactic to try out.

In fact I can't wait to see what will happen tonight in pugs. Right after careful tactics explanation *BOOM* The healer gets 1-shot

I'll let you know...

DemonDruaga

Mureel wrote: »

DemonDruaga wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

We did this: Healer (Me) tanks Bear (main boss), DPS whip on bear, and keep cat disabled, main tank handles dogs and guar.

We finish fight under 2 mins ever time.

Sounds nice, did you wear anything special for that? Like heavy + 1h/shield?
Or can one hold the bear in a light armor setup?

@DemonDruaga
Nope just did it in spc and worm. Used harness magicka and kept warhorn up with tank and springs/combat prayer/ele and some orbs. I lose taunt on cat 1-2 times but can keep bear easy. He does not hit hard, even his rear up thing is easy. Think last boss VDSA - that's where I got the idea.

Thx good to know that

Sabbathius

Small update:

Had the most luck parking my butt right in front of the Dire Wolf spawn platform as a tank, with bear in tow, and range-taunting the Guar. Then I just wait for doggies to spawn, let them boop me and pop.

Also, unconfirmed, but I think that the Dire Wolves and the rest are not friendly to each other. A few times Wolves spawned just as the bear was doing a heavy cleave attack, and got popped immediately. Happened more than once, though it was too hectic.

The biggest problem with this tactic is if the DPS sucks (which in a PUG is to say always), the cat might pounce on you. And as we all know fear in this game is buggy mess that ZOS seems incapable of fixing, and you'll get feared into and under the Dire Wolf pedestal and get stuck there from time to time.

But it's the most full-proof, elegant solution I found so far. PUGs are unable to deal with Dire Wolf packs, so I don't let them run around. They die as they spawn, before they can start running around and switch people's brains off, so all they do is walk backwards and light attack.

profundidob16_ESO

Mureel wrote: »

We did this: Healer (Me) tanks Bear (main boss), DPS whip on bear, and keep cat disabled, main tank handles dogs and guar.
Edited to add: I also rangetaunt cat (just use inner fire no need for tank gear or anything) when he pops to stop him jumping at the tank etc. He gets disabled in the cleave by the dps on the boss very fast. This part doesn't always work because I'm not a tank so I'm doing the best I can but he still sometime jumps. Still the dps just burst him down and it's only 2 times of this part or just about 2 if we're fast. Just remember to walk the boss out of any plants aoe because that's nasty.

The benefit to this also is that dps is so near me and main boss I can keep ele drain and combat prayer down constantly. Throw a bol at tank now and then if need be and that's it.

We finish fight under 2 mins every time.

as promised I tried it out in pugs and not only does it work, it's better than the previous tactic because it moves alot of the skill required to the tank. As a tank I eventually managed to guide a newbie pug group (first time in the dungeon) with low dps passed this boss on vet. That being said, some skill is still required it seems because it took them still over an hour of wiping and pratising in order to learn to stay alive long enough for the low dps to eventually kill the bear. The whole fight averaged 7minutes

Mureel

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

We did this: Healer (Me) tanks Bear (main boss), DPS whip on bear, and keep cat disabled, main tank handles dogs and guar.
Edited to add: I also rangetaunt cat (just use inner fire no need for tank gear or anything) when he pops to stop him jumping at the tank etc. He gets disabled in the cleave by the dps on the boss very fast. This part doesn't always work because I'm not a tank so I'm doing the best I can but he still sometime jumps. Still the dps just burst him down and it's only 2 times of this part or just about 2 if we're fast. Just remember to walk the boss out of any plants aoe because that's nasty.

The benefit to this also is that dps is so near me and main boss I can keep ele drain and combat prayer down constantly. Throw a bol at tank now and then if need be and that's it.

We finish fight under 2 mins every time.

as promised I tried it out in pugs and not only does it work, it's better than the previous tactic because it moves alot of the skill required to the tank. As a tank I eventually managed to guide a newbie pug group (first time in the dungeon) with low dps passed this boss on vet. That being said, some skill is still required it seems because it took them still over an hour of wiping and pratising in order to learn to stay alive long enough for the low dps to eventually kill the bear. The whole fight averaged 7minutes

Lower dps makes it harder because it keeps the cat in play ccing people longer and that's a death if people don't react fast.

If the cat is not in play, it's a very easy fight.

Alcast

Here my guide with timestamp of the 2nd bossfight:
https://youtu.be/EdWksffL3aw?t=1m28s

Can anyone explain to me what is the biggest problem with this boss? Is it because you have to kite AND damage at the same time? or what is killing ppl?

profundidob16_ESO

Alcast wrote: »

Here my guide with timestamp of the 2nd bossfight:
https://youtu.be/EdWksffL3aw?t=1m28s

Can anyone explain to me what is the biggest problem with this boss? Is it because you have to kite AND damage at the same time? or what is killing ppl?

Over 30 different group experiences now on this boss of which around 7 premade and 23 pure pug.

Best experiences (premades) where we just go straight into middle, all dance around the center and nuke while kiting. The whole thing looks ridiculously easy and is over within 2min. Apparently everyone is experienced enough in this case to avoid, keep moving while dps/heal/tank

Worst experiences is any where dps is low up to the point of "are we actually doing any dps ??" level. The Senche cannot be shut down due to not enough dps and the same fight takes 10minutes, requiring 10 full minutes of full focus where every slip up from anyone = death. You do the math.

and then there's the whole usual PUG joy 50 Shades of grey: people coming in with 15-16K health...people apparently not noticing red color....doglovers who feel the need to hug them....people who have yet to discover the interrupt skills on their bars...etc


take your pick really

Sru

Alcast wrote: »

Can anyone explain to me what is the biggest problem with this boss? Is it because you have to kite AND damage at the same time? or what is killing ppl?

When the cat is killed first time and respawns, it will immediately throw someone to the side of the area, pounce and needs bashing to free the person. If you are not fast enough, then they die.

Moving around in circles is ok (the tactic we used) but if the dps is slightly too low to allow the cat to respawn things can get hairy. The exploding pineapples can also catch you out if you circle into one as it explodes.

In your video, your DPS was high enough that you skipped the mechanics repeating. Try it with less DPS and you can see the issues for groups.

I thoroughly enjoy vet Scalecaller and this Fangs Lair with the exception of this boss fight - our DPS is _just_ too low to kill the bear before the tiger respawns.

Alcast

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Here my guide with timestamp of the 2nd bossfight:
https://youtu.be/EdWksffL3aw?t=1m28s

Can anyone explain to me what is the biggest problem with this boss? Is it because you have to kite AND damage at the same time? or what is killing ppl?

Over 30 different group experiences now on this boss of which around 7 premade and 23 pure pug.

Best experiences (premades) where we just go straight into middle, all dance around the center and nuke while kiting. The whole thing looks ridiculously easy and is over within 2min. Apparently everyone is experienced enough in this case to avoid, keep moving while dps/heal/tank

Worst experiences is any where dps is low up to the point of "are we actually doing any dps ??" level. The Senche cannot be shut down due to not enough dps and the same fight takes 10minutes, requiring 10 full minutes of full focus where every slip up from anyone = death. You do the math.

and then there's the whole usual PUG joy 50 Shades of grey: people coming in with 15-16K health...people apparently not noticing red color....doglovers who feel the need to hug them....people who have yet to discover the interrupt skills on their bars...etc


take your pick really

Hmm okay, so people just can not cope with the mechanics. I also do not understand why players queue for such a dungeon in vet when they are CLEARLY not prepared for it. I mean the things you described, people would better first go Fungual to practice there >.>

Sru wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Can anyone explain to me what is the biggest problem with this boss? Is it because you have to kite AND damage at the same time? or what is killing ppl?

When the cat is killed first time and respawns, it will immediately throw someone to the side of the area, pounce and needs bashing to free the person. If you are not fast enough, then they die.

Moving around in circles is ok (the tactic we used) but if the dps is slightly too low to allow the cat to respawn things can get hairy. The exploding pineapples can also catch you out if you circle into one as it explodes.

In your video, your DPS was high enough that you skipped the mechanics repeating. Try it with less DPS and you can see the issues for groups.

I thoroughly enjoy vet Scalecaller and this Fangs Lair with the exception of this boss fight - our DPS is _just_ too low to kill the bear before the tiger respawns.

Okay, how are the other bosses tho? Like Caluurion or Ulfnor or last boss compared to this boss? I do not think it gets any easier? It just seems that people are not really prepared for this dungeon, if the dps is so super low to a point where a fight takes forever.

profundidob16_ESO

yes Alcast. That is the true bottomline problem. There is no check, no requirement they must pass to be able to queue for these dungeons so everyone clicks and hopes to be carried. It is beyond ridiculous.

Worst part is one cannot even blame them completely since they don't even have a chance to queue for "VET random dungeon except DLC ones".

I'm personally a big fan of the idea that many already proposed where ZOS adds some mini dungeons like vma that are in fact core role tutorials with increasing difficulty and matching achievements. Depending on how far you got into it more difficult tiers of the random dungeon finder open up to you (normal/vet/DLC vet)

Kolache

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

yes Alcast. That is the true bottomline problem. There is no check, no requirement they must pass to be able to queue for these dungeons so everyone clicks and hopes to be carried. It is beyond ridiculous.

I was giving this some thought after yet another frustrating night with some friends. Do you think it would be realistic to say "it's probably a good idea to be able to complete vMA" before taking on a fight like this? For DPS anyway. I know the build would be a little bit different, but I can't think of any other sort of gut-check to perform prior to trying to dance with a group on content like this.

josiahva

Consistency? When it comes to pug groups? No way. As a tank, this fight is a rez-fest for me. The Senche cant be taunted, you are lucky if he aggros on you even for a few seconds, but all of these guys except the exploding wolves and the one-shot pin hit like wet noodles. One of your jobs as a tank in this fight is to interrupt the senche pounce-and-pin. Mind you, its not EXCLUSIVELY your responsibility to interrupt with a shield charge+bash, but I spend 90% of this fight ignoring everything except that stupid senche so I can charge and interrupt whenever it happens.

In the end this fight is really a dance-test for the DPS. It tests their abilities to either kite the wolves while DPSing, or bait the wolves and get out of range before they explode. Think if it kind of like Dranos in CoS, the DPS must dance or die, not much you can do as a tank except facepalm, I end up rezzing dead DPS about 20 times per fight.

Mureel

I found our way simplest by far. No chicken running necessary.

Mureel

Alcast wrote: »

Here my guide with timestamp of the 2nd bossfight:
https://youtu.be/EdWksffL3aw?t=1m28s

Can anyone explain to me what is the biggest problem with this boss? Is it because you have to kite AND damage at the same time? or what is killing ppl?

I wrote up there how we do it. I don't think all the crazy running/kiting is even necessary and I think it makes more mess than it's worth.

Mureel

josiahva wrote: »

Consistency? When it comes to pug groups? No way. As a tank, this fight is a rez-fest for me. The Senche cant be taunted, you are lucky if he aggros on you even for a few seconds, but all of these guys except the exploding wolves and the one-shot pin hit like wet noodles. One of your jobs as a tank in this fight is to interrupt the senche pounce-and-pin. Mind you, its not EXCLUSIVELY your responsibility to interrupt with a shield charge+bash, but I spend 90% of this fight ignoring everything except that stupid senche so I can charge and interrupt whenever it happens.

In the end this fight is really a dance-test for the DPS. It tests their abilities to either kite the wolves while DPSing, or bait the wolves and get out of range before they explode. Think if it kind of like Dranos in CoS, the DPS must dance or die, not much you can do as a tank except facepalm, I end up rezzing dead DPS about 20 times per fight.

Please see my post up there, re healer tanking bear, there's an easier way. Truly.

Plus dps and healer by exit with bear, and tank by dogspawn = cat pops to tank usually which means interrupt and incapacitate and finish off boss.
We have this place on farm and never die to dogs/cat and it's really a sub 2 min to just over 2 min fight.

*one note - must have been a coincidence every time but after the cat pounce and interrupt, I use inner fire on cat and he comes - so maybe is just luck/coincidence all those times- because it's working more often than not so I assumed it works until he does his mechanic again, but he never gets to pounce more than once each time so it could just be luck I guess. I also figured I just missed him or something the few times it failed.

But we always have the cat incap near us 3 where I have the bear and thus pops to tank both times (never had that mechanic more than 2 times while fight other than the day we first went) because tank is furthest from all of us.

Arbit

I find with a low dps group the senche is impossible to deal with. getting jumped by it is essentially a death sentence, especially if dogs are following you when you get jumped. Without the senche this fight would be much more manageable.

Sabbathius

Arbit wrote: »

I find with a low dps group the senche is impossible to deal with. getting jumped by it is essentially a death sentence, especially if dogs are following you when you get jumped. Without the senche this fight would be much more manageable.

Yep, that's the conclusion I arrived to as well. I mostly ran dungeons as tank up until now, but lately I started doing them as DPS as well, to see how the other half lives, and see what I can do better as a tank. And that fight with half-decent DPS is absolutely trivial, dogs pose no threat whatsoever on their own. The tiger can be annoying, but keeping him tab-targeted and having Crushing Shock or something like it on your bar solves that.

akl77

I pugged this from activity finder and spent a few days before success. Our group never have op dps or tank, and I’m the healer. We got a tank that is not a real tank and is a sorc dps that queued as a tank, so then I said I’ll put on tank gear and tank and heal our group as I’ve been playing tank healer in Templar all the time. That’s where our success finally came, so get 3 dps, one tank that also heals group, and you’ll have enough dps to burn down the boss. 40k+ health tank that has a taunt and rest healing skills AND purge skill.