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Recent update made the game more like an Operant Conditioning Chamber than ever before.

Twenty0zTsunami
Twenty0zTsunami
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber
http://www.nickyee.com/eqt/skinner.html
http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2007/08/are-mmos-just-skinner-boxes.html
https://www.pcgamer.com/behind-the-addictive-psychology-and-seductive-art-of-loot-boxes/

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/887291-Wow-The-mother-of-all-skinner-boxes


The interface/implementation for the "levelup" rewards is gaudy, and obtrusive. Everything about it reeks of a free-to-play mobile game. I'm sure they'll tell you it's meant to provide "sense" of "achievement" and "accomplishment". But in actuality all it does, all they wanted it to do, was further reinforce the aspects of gaming that cause people to become addicted, or develop addict-like behavior. And if you believe that they either don't know, or don't want to take advantage of this? You're either foolish or naive.
Edited by Twenty0zTsunami on February 15, 2018 5:35PM
  • Easy_Prey
    Easy_Prey
    Soul Shriven
    I'm not foolish... I'm naïve.
  • krachall
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    Uh...isn't that the entire premise of an MMO? Nothing new.

    You're basically saying ESO gamified the game...which is circular logic at its best.
  • Twenty0zTsunami
    Twenty0zTsunami
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    krachall wrote: »
    gamified

    How does that kool aid taste?

    It is not an essential part of a game. But it sure is a good business model, seeing as how no customer is as loyal as an addicted customer.
    Edited by Twenty0zTsunami on February 15, 2018 5:41PM
  • jaye63
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    krachall wrote: »
    gamified

    How does that kool aid taste?

    It is not an essential part of a game. But it sure is a good business model, seeing as how no customer is as loyal as an addicted customer.

    Actually... associating that operant behavior to humans is BS... Just read this BEGINNING text into Psychology. Who's the koolade drinker?
    https://lumen.instructure.com/courses/170090/pages/problems-of-operant-conditioning
    Edit: From the first paragraph...
    The research on operant conditioning was almost exclusively done with animals- rats, pigeons, dogs, and so on. One fundamental assumption of the model was that these principles would also apply to humans. This section describes why that assumption is incorrect.
    Edited by jaye63 on February 15, 2018 5:46PM
  • Twenty0zTsunami
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    jaye63 wrote: »
    krachall wrote: »
    gamified

    How does that kool aid taste?

    It is not an essential part of a game. But it sure is a good business model, seeing as how no customer is as loyal as an addicted customer.

    Actually... associating that operant behavior to humans is BS... Just read this BEGINNING text into Psychology. Who's the koolade drinker?
    https://lumen.instructure.com/courses/170090/pages/problems-of-operant-conditioning

    Are you, are they implying that humans can't be psychologically conditioned? What a gas.

    aid*
    Edited by Twenty0zTsunami on February 15, 2018 5:46PM
  • jaye63
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    jaye63 wrote: »
    krachall wrote: »
    gamified

    How does that kool aid taste?

    It is not an essential part of a game. But it sure is a good business model, seeing as how no customer is as loyal as an addicted customer.

    Actually... associating that operant behavior to humans is BS... Just read this BEGINNING text into Psychology. Who's the koolade drinker?
    https://lumen.instructure.com/courses/170090/pages/problems-of-operant-conditioning

    Are you, are they implying that humans can't be psychologically conditioned? What a gas.

    aid*

    The research on operant conditioning was almost exclusively done with animals- rats, pigeons, dogs, and so on. One fundamental assumption of the model was that these principles would also apply to humans. This section describes why that assumption is incorrect. - you didnt read
  • jaye63
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    And it's not me implying anything... it's a text from the professionals in the field saying that it's incorrect.
  • Twenty0zTsunami
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    jaye63 wrote: »
    jaye63 wrote: »
    krachall wrote: »
    gamified

    How does that kool aid taste?

    It is not an essential part of a game. But it sure is a good business model, seeing as how no customer is as loyal as an addicted customer.

    Actually... associating that operant behavior to humans is BS... Just read this BEGINNING text into Psychology. Who's the koolade drinker?
    https://lumen.instructure.com/courses/170090/pages/problems-of-operant-conditioning

    Are you, are they implying that humans can't be psychologically conditioned? What a gas.

    aid*

    The research on operant conditioning was almost exclusively done with animals- rats, pigeons, dogs, and so on. One fundamental assumption of the model was that these principles would also apply to humans. This section describes why that assumption is incorrect. - you didnt read

    Because the assumption isn't incorrect. People can easily be trained to respond to stimuli
    Edited by Twenty0zTsunami on February 15, 2018 5:48PM
  • VaranisArano
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    On the one hand, yeah, it's gaudy and intrusive.

    On the other hand, it does a lot to demystify parts of the game that otherwise new players have to learn from other players. How many new players didn't realize how useful food/drink buffs are until they hit content where someone sat them down and said "You really need to use food/drink buffs."
  • Sevalaricgirl
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    Hell I was addicted to this game before they gave away free stuff and I'm addicted to it now. Skooma for everyone!
  • DeadlyRecluse
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    I have no problem behaving like a rat for fancy mounts.
    Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub
  • Twenty0zTsunami
    Twenty0zTsunami
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    I have no problem behaving like a rat for fancy mounts.

    Don't they just give you the sorrel as a reward? Unless you're referring to the rewarded crates, in which case the odds are against you to ever receive anything but potions/food/scrolls etc.
    Edited by Twenty0zTsunami on February 15, 2018 5:50PM
  • Sevalaricgirl
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    I have no problem behaving like a rat for fancy mounts.

    I already own the fancy mounts, but hey, I was leveling these two anyway, it was no problem starting them over (they were babies) and being rewarded for it. Wait...didn't I see cheese over in that corner?
  • The_Brosteen
    The_Brosteen
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    Filthy capitalist pigs.

    SEIZE THE MEMES OF PRODUCTION!
  • Twenty0zTsunami
    Twenty0zTsunami
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    I have no problem behaving like a rat for fancy mounts.

    I already own the fancy mounts, but hey, I was leveling these two anyway, it was no problem starting them over (they were babies) and being rewarded for it. Wait...didn't I see cheese over in that corner?

    Yes but the cheese is behind a paywall. Andyou only have a 1/1000 chance of obtaining the cheese you actually like.
    Edited by Twenty0zTsunami on February 15, 2018 5:51PM
  • Spacemonkey
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    jaye63 wrote: »
    And it's not me implying anything... it's a text from the professionals in the field saying that it's incorrect.

    Are you arguing over that because you don't agree with the OP statement:
    ... But in actuality all it does, all they wanted it to do, was further reinforce the aspects of gaming that cause people to become addicted, ...
    ?

    Perhaps you can bring forth arguments for this level up system?
  • DeadlyRecluse
    DeadlyRecluse
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    I have no problem behaving like a rat for fancy mounts.

    Don't they just give you the sorrel as a reward? Unless you're referring to the rewarded crates, in which case the odds are against you to ever receive anything but potions/food/scrolls etc.

    Never ask a rat to calculate the odds.
    I have no problem behaving like a rat for fancy mounts.

    I already own the fancy mounts, but hey, I was leveling these two anyway, it was no problem starting them over (they were babies) and being rewarded for it. Wait...didn't I see cheese over in that corner?

    Same tbh. I have skeletal guar and flaming guar, and lightning senche. But free crates=free gems=free hard-to-obtain motifs in the future. Looking at you, Buoyant armiger.
    Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub
  • TequilaFire
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    I prefer Funny Face Rootin' Tootin' Raspberry over Kool-Aid. :p
  • logarifmik
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    The interface/implementation for the "levelup" rewards is gaudy, and obtrusive. Everything about it reeks of a free-to-play mobile game. I'm sure they'll tell you it's meant to provide "sense" of "achievement" and "accomplishment". But in actuality all it does, all they wanted it to do, was further reinforce the aspects of gaming that cause people to become addicted, or develop addict-like behavior. And if you believe that they either don't know, or don't want to take advantage of this? You're either foolish or naive.
    It doesn't work with me, I guess. Nevertheless, a beneficial observation, comrade, because praemonitus praemunitus.
    EU PC: @logarifmik | Languages: Русский, English
    Dimitri Frernis | Breton Sorcerer | Damage Dealer | Daggerfall Covenant
    Scales-of-Ice | Argonian Warden | Tank / Healer | Daggerfall Covenant
  • Twenty0zTsunami
    Twenty0zTsunami
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    I have no problem behaving like a rat for fancy mounts.

    Don't they just give you the sorrel as a reward? Unless you're referring to the rewarded crates, in which case the odds are against you to ever receive anything but potions/food/scrolls etc.

    Never ask a rat to calculate the odds.
    I have no problem behaving like a rat for fancy mounts.

    I already own the fancy mounts, but hey, I was leveling these two anyway, it was no problem starting them over (they were babies) and being rewarded for it. Wait...didn't I see cheese over in that corner?

    Same tbh. I have skeletal guar and flaming guar, and lightning senche. But free crates=free gems=free hard-to-obtain motifs in the future. Looking at you, Buoyant armiger.

    Im not saying they should do away with the rewards themselves, but the current implementation is trash. Just apply the crate to my account, send me the items via the mail with a letter saying hey you earned this for hitting lvl 20. The only reason they didn't do that? Im certain the only reason is because they wanted it to have that "conditioning" effect.
  • Leandor
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    Dear OP,

    If you are so concerned, please stop playing the game.

    Sincerely,
    The happily addicted.

    PS: I can haz your stuff?
  • lagrue
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    jaye63 wrote: »
    krachall wrote: »
    gamified

    How does that kool aid taste?

    It is not an essential part of a game. But it sure is a good business model, seeing as how no customer is as loyal as an addicted customer.

    The research on operant conditioning was almost exclusively done with animals- rats, pigeons, dogs, and so on. One fundamental assumption of the model was that these principles would also apply to humans. This section describes why that assumption is incorrect.

    Yeah uh... almost all psychological research is done on animals (I studied psychology). The fundamental assumption of almost every study done in psychology, is that they apply to humans. Operant Conditioning, Classic Conditioning, Attachment Theory, etc. All done on animals, and all very critical to the fundamental understandings of human behavior as well (because believe it or not, we're animals). Operant Conditioning is widely considered to be the way in which humans learn their most basic behaviours. The model very well applies to humans, especially in their early years - but like almost every other theory in psychology, it doesn't explain every behavior.

    Studies done on humans; i.e. the Stanford Prison Experiment, have been deemed to be ridiculously inhumane, leave participants psychologically and emotionally damaged, and overall that poos all over the validity of the studies.

    If you know the key system in which humans are conditioned to certain behaviours, perhaps write a letter to the APA and enlighten them all, rather than call people kool-aid drinkers on the forums.

    Also -10 points for sourcing a psychology book, without providing proper APA to be validated, and for allegedly quoting a "basic" psychology book. You can tell you like to just quick google some trash and drop it on people.

    -You are now eligible for a position as Armchair Psychologist.
    .
    Edited by lagrue on February 15, 2018 6:09PM
    PSN ID (NA only): Zuzu_With_a_Z
    *GRAND MASTER CRAFTER*

    "You must defeat me every time. I need defeat you only once"
  • SilverIce58
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    So, what's your point op?
    PC - NA
    CP 1125
    Veric Blackwood - Breton Magsorc DC
    Xhiak-Qua'cthurus - Argonian Frost Warden EP
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  • jaye63
    jaye63
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    jaye63 wrote: »
    And it's not me implying anything... it's a text from the professionals in the field saying that it's incorrect.

    Are you arguing over that because you don't agree with the OP statement:
    ... But in actuality all it does, all they wanted it to do, was further reinforce the aspects of gaming that cause people to become addicted, ...
    ?

    Perhaps you can bring forth arguments for this level up system?

    New guy comes in... learning curve is high, makes a very gimp toon, gets booted from dungeons because he's gimp... this helps to make him viable. Not great but acceptable. I dont build pattern toons. It's boring to play some one else's build. Something like this would have shortened the learning curve.

    Ideas that hadnt been considered. It's easy to get hyper focused on one thing. This gives multiple choices so that you can see something you may not have.

    I currently find it annoying because I did my time screwing up and figuring it out thru trial and error and asking stupid questions and newb questions that got me trolled on a regular basis. So I can see the worth. I dont care one way or the other. The game will survive. The troubling thing to me is that this could be an indicator that the participation level is in decline. And maybe this is the actual reason people have an issue with it. They're afraid that it's an indicator that the game is dying and trying to cater to people who normally wouldnt or couldnt play it.
  • ak_pvp
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    I sort of agree in a small way. I don't see anything wrong with the rewards being free and simply utility/cosmetics. I personally like the system ESO has going almost entirely, since you can easily compete with a player with everything from the crownstore. Only serious complaint is paywalling warden and imperial. I have them, its still scummy.

    But it does feel gaudy, if you have ever played a freemium mobile game its very similar, go up a level? Look, here are some high tier crown™ pot headstart for your level. (Never mind you can craft your own better and cheaper, hush hush) Looook, shiny. Look, flashy crown™ crates and mounts.

    Its all well and good for an occasionally paying player like me, who gets basically free stuff, but not for new players who don't know how the game works as much and instantly get crown notifications shoved down their throat.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • MercTheMage
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    It's odd that you should mention addiction...
    I often feel like I can't play games other than ESO anymore. It doesn't matter what I'm playing, I find myself wanting to come back to ESO, getting upset cause it's not ESO, then when I finally do open ESO back up, I stand around doing nothing. :/
    You just going to stand there like a lemon?
  • Darkstorne
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    Yeah, gaudy isn't a great look, but I do understand why they wanted to implement the system. It can be confusing to new players, since it's a levelling/skill system that is unique both to MMOs and TES games. It's not implemented brilliantly though, and I agree that the game is leaning far too heavily towards hooks and seeking to create addicts out of players. Sadly it's not unique. Destiny was developed specifically to be a Skinner box, with one of the lead devs writing an article about all the game psychology that went into it, deliberately trying to make engram drops feel like a slot machine, paying out infrequently enough to feel rare, but just frequently enough to make sure players didn't give up trying for them, and also making them look and sound amazing when they drop. And now the industry is going full-on crazy with loot boxes / Crown Crates. Also, LOL at the guy in this thread claiming humans are immune to operant conditioning :lol:
  • I_killed_Vivec
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    I have no problem behaving like a rat for fancy mounts.

    Don't they just give you the sorrel as a reward? Unless you're referring to the rewarded crates, in which case the odds are against you to ever receive anything but potions/food/scrolls etc.

    Never ask a rat to calculate the odds.
    I have no problem behaving like a rat for fancy mounts.

    I already own the fancy mounts, but hey, I was leveling these two anyway, it was no problem starting them over (they were babies) and being rewarded for it. Wait...didn't I see cheese over in that corner?

    Same tbh. I have skeletal guar and flaming guar, and lightning senche. But free crates=free gems=free hard-to-obtain motifs in the future. Looking at you, Buoyant armiger.

    That's precisely what I did with the latest "free" crates - convert to gems any buy Buoyant. I was fed up with the minuscule drop rate and reasoned that it would be better for my sanity to trash the ones I had found (only a couple) and buy the book with gems.

    Next time there's an ultra rare motif I'll just sell off any pages I do find and wait until the book is in the Crown Store...
  • victoriana-blue
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    It's not operant conditioning because the rewards stop at level 50. If it was conditioning, you'd see players have an extinction burst of levelling then give up for lack of reward.

    What it is, is making the early game more sticky - there's a lot to learn in this game, but the rewards help. Most of the rewards are things like glyphs and green weapons, but even the big ones like the horse take away an irritation. Do you remember how much you wanted that first horse, or how silly you felt when you realized the importance of riding lessons later on? Those are irritations and too many irritations make people quit.

    Are the levelling rewards a dopamine hit? Absolutely, but so is opening a chest or achieving something in-game. But they're not Skinner boxes, and neither are the levelling rewards.
    CP 750+
    Never enough inventory space, even with storage coffers and a mule account
  • Twenty0zTsunami
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    It's not operant conditioning because the rewards stop at level 50. If it was conditioning, you'd see players have an extinction burst of levelling then give up for lack of reward.

    What it is, is making the early game more sticky - there's a lot to learn in this game, but the rewards help. Most of the rewards are things like glyphs and green weapons, but even the big ones like the horse take away an irritation. Do you remember how much you wanted that first horse, or how silly you felt when you realized the importance of riding lessons later on? Those are irritations and too many irritations make people quit.

    Are the levelling rewards a dopamine hit? Absolutely, but so is opening a chest or achieving something in-game. But they're not Skinner boxes, and neither are the levelling rewards.

    Rewards stop at fifty but that doesnt mean it's not operant conditioning. The chamber merely changes, as does the method of operation.

    Furthermore there's nothing to stop a player from rolling a new character to get those sweet sweet carrots *loot boxes, and you're daft if you think they didn't consider and intend for that very thing. My money's on the fact that they noticed NO ONE buys additional character slots.
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