Alienating Customers

AuldWolf

I have feelings about things.

I am very fond of ESO. My partner won an art competition, here. I have a lot of good memories. I do, feel, though that there's a reason why the game has never gone above 8-10~k players on a good day (Steam Charts reveals this). And it has a lot to do with how the game has been managed since One Tamriel.

The game is following exactly the same path as Champions Online and many others I've seen go down this road. If I were cynical enough, I'd wonder if it's down to the same kinds of people being hired on from sinking boats to sink yet more boats. A lot of my favourite MMOs have gone down this exact same route to try to keep money coming in.

Let's look at some notions...

Corporate Thinking: People need to be addicted to grind, that's why they keep paying us. Nerf all of the things!
Player Thinking: I enjoy alts and roleplaying! I'm stuck on one character, though, and I can't have alts. If I start a new character it'll take the rest of my life to build them up. So this is dull, and I don't have the life to waste on this. And every now and then they break my character, anyway, just to set me back. I'll just give up.

Corporate Thinking: People buy lootboxes! Add lootboxes! It'll bring in less money!
Player Thinking: Eh. That MMO has lootboxes. It's already dying or dead. I'm not even going to try it. Only a dying MMO with a tiny player base relies on lootboxes to bring in money.

Corporate Thinking: We don't have enough of a community! We need to keep our cash shop prices up to even make money!
Player Thinking: They want how much for a house? Man, a hideout in Champions Online didn't cost 5 per cent of that and it had more furniture options!

I could go on like this, but you get the point. If it were me? I'd drop the lootboxes for now. I'd also reduce the overall grind and start buffing in balancing, not nerfing. That'd send a good message to new players, it would say that this game looks healthy rather than dying. It would entice them in. As player numbers built up, I'd drop the prices of things on the crown store to continue bringing in more players by building on this image of a healthy, lively MMO.

People aren't stupid. If it looks like your MMO is dying, it'll only die more.

And what I see on threads a lot is: Too many nerfs; Crowns are too expensive; Housing is too expensive; There's too much grind; My characters keep getting broken; I can't convince my friends to try this game.

The reasons why are obvious, I just laid them out.

I love ZOS, but this is just as mismanaged as it was when I left. I came back to take a look to see if they'd learned anything in the interim and it seems like they really haven't. It bothers me, I guess. It just feels like peeing into the wind, as I've seen a lot of MMOs die in exactly this way. They telegraph their death with loud, loud wails, so no one bothers to try them. CO did it, WildStar did it, TOR did it, and ESO is doing it. Is it so hard to try a new approach?

AuldWolf

The point I'm making about house pricing, if it isn't clear, is that it all ties in to making them look desperate and needy for cash. Which just builds on the notion that this is a dying/dead game. Which means new people won't try it.

Ratzkifal

I stopped reading at "steam charts reveal this". Most players don't play over steam. At least most players on the forum don't, which I think is representative.

Saturnana

AuldWolf wrote: »

there's a reason why the game has never gone above 8-10~k players on a good day (Steam Charts reveals this)

That chart only shows the percentage of PC/Mac players that play through Steam. It does not include the (possibly larger part) of players that play through ESO's own channels, nor does it give any information on the amount of players on either console platform. For a total picture, you'd want to know the amount of players on PC/Mac-Steam + PC/Mac-Regular + Xbox + PS4. Right now you're basing your conclusions on numbers regarding just one of those groups.

Iccotak

The houses and other things that you list off in pricing are entirely cosmetic.
Sure houses will be coming with new storage space...BUT you can purchase certain houses for a good amount of in-game gold, that's what I did.

The Lootboxes are cosmetic only and do no harm whatsoever. It is in no way P2W.

Keep in mind that this is an MMO without a required subscription. Because they dropped subscription they have to make up for the loss in income with other methods of monetization. They need sources of income in order to support the game with continual updates. They have done a very good job of not making that intrusive.
It's either that or required subscription.

Also it's hardly "Dying", that's what people who have no idea what they are talking about say

SydneyGrey

I see a couple of other people already called you out on this, but the Steam Charts only give numbers for people who play through Steam, which is only a fraction of the community. The game is a whole lot larger and more popular than you think it is.

Bhaal5

Yeah that chart doesnt include the dozens that play on ps4........ DOZENS

Iccotak

Bhaal5 wrote: »

Yeah that chart doesnt include the dozens that play on ps4........ DOZENS

way more than dozens lol

essi2

Anecdotal, but that's the name of the game when it comes to ESO, so here we go!

I meet more people in-game who have purchased the game from ZOS then from Steam.

JamuThatsWho

Steam is not representative of the entire community.

The Crown Store/Crates are cosmetic and not necessary to buy.

It doesn't take that long to level up an alt.

These all sound like personal grievances.

thedude33

@OP

Pitch your ideas to some backers. Make a new game. When it's complete I'm sure everyone that plays the game will 100% agree with everything you do.

Ozstryker

ESO does not have a forced subscription.. therefore they create other revenue streams to maintain the game, and create a profit! What you call corporate greed, Others would call a business strategy!
Now don't get me wrong, imo some prices in the store are a bit OTT, but here's the kicker, none of it gives you an advantage over other players!.. it's all optional/cosmetic! So I would disagree that this means the game is dying, more maintaining revenue in a crowded market.

"A game has loot boxes.... must be dying" LOL

Jermu73

Yes. I'm feeling same way. I do love this game but im loosing intrest of this game because it doesn't offer me anything anymore. I think this game is for elitist gamers who want to do all the chore over and over again... I keep ketting back to this game time to time and find same disappointment everytime...Too bad.

I_killed_Vivec

It looks like you have started from the premise that ESO is dying and taken that to prove that ESO is dying. But if that isn't true then your argument just crumbles.

Consider for a moment that ESO is thriving, ZoS might think "how can we get more revenue?" and come up with the answer "loot boxes, they might not be popular to start with but we have a big enough user base that we can withstand any initial objections".

Similarly for house prices - if the market is strong enough it will stand those high prices. Why sell cheap when there are enough people wiling to spend more? I imagine ZoS spend a lot of time pitching crown store items at the right price.

See, I can turn your argument on its head by starting with a different premise.

As for grinding... it's what they do to keep us busy between DLC drops. Use RNG to keep us busy grinding for what we want and blind us to the fact that there hasn't been any new content for a while ... and that while we wait 3 months for a DLC it only keeps us busy for a week at most, apart from the daily grind for motifs, etc.

anitajoneb17_ESO

AuldWolf wrote: »

I have feelings about things.
.../...
Corporate Thinking: People need to be addicted to grind, that's why they keep paying us. Nerf all of the things!
Player Thinking: I enjoy alts and roleplaying! I'm stuck on one character, though, and I can't have alts. If I start a new character it'll take the rest of my life to build them up. So this is dull, and I don't have the life to waste on this. And every now and then they break my character, anyway, just to set me back. I'll just give up.

Corporate Thinking: People buy lootboxes! Add lootboxes! It'll bring in less money!
Player Thinking: Eh. That MMO has lootboxes. It's already dying or dead. I'm not even going to try it. Only a dying MMO with a tiny player base relies on lootboxes to bring in money.

Corporate Thinking: We don't have enough of a community! We need to keep our cash shop prices up to even make money!
Player Thinking: They want how much for a house? Man, a hideout in Champions Online didn't cost 5 per cent of that and it had more furniture options!
.../...Is it so hard to try a new approach?

You said it : what you express are FEELINGS.
Your "player thinking" is YOUR thinking, not player thinking... even though you're a player, you're just ONE player. And even if your fellow players think the same as you, you're still a small group of players.

The "Corporate" (in this matter : ZOS) doesn't *think* based on feelings. They make decisions based on data and surveys, in a scientific, measurable manner.
The game is designed with a lot of grinding because, overall, that is the most efficient way to keep the most players in the game for longer hours. Even if it MAY scare off a few players from creating alts.
The game offers lootboxes because lootboxes sell. They sell because people buy them. Even if some players dislike them and may even leave the game because of them, or not try it because it gives a "dying" image to the game. In the end, lootboxes bring money.
And the pricing of crown store items is set up according to precise price/demand studies which determine which price will bring the most income.

It's not hard to try a new approach, but a new approach is never going to be implemented if it doesn't concretely prove that it does bring more profit than the current approach.

Bottom line is : people don't buy lootboxes because they're available. It's the other way round. Lootboxes are there because people buy them. Or, to say it the hard way, ZOS isn't "alienating" customers. They implement "alienating" strategies because they work well with most players.

Remember December 2014=>June 2015 ? That was when ESO was actually dying. Changing the subscription model to optional, and altering the leveling system with One Tamriel saved ESO, and since then, the game's population has only been growing and growing. At least from my perspective (I don't have figures either).

LadyAstrum

I think in a world full of many gaming options people are more inclined to look for the next game on the horizon. Combined with the "I want it now" mindset, short attention spans, and burn-out that occurs, I think there is a lot of mobility between games. People coming and going. The mmo market is quite saturated, and the player loyalty that would have happened in the days of Ultima Online, or even early days of WoW, is harder to win and even harder to keep.

This, I wonder, partially explains the explosion in cash shops. A lot of people don't want to pay subs anymore (goes back to player loyalty, amongst other things such as affordability), but companies want to make their money somehow.

I think game companies just know they can get away with a less polished product these days, for example people fall over themselves to pay to be part of a buggy alpha/beta game in development. We're partially to blame for accepting, and rewarding, sub-par games, but game companies are also to blame for allowing corporate types dictate development, instead of the people (the devs) who are truly passionate about the games they make.

Narvuntien

How do you live being so cynical all the time?

Games need to make money to exist...they offering services that if you don't have the money to spare on the cash shop or lootboxes do not spend your money on them. Its all about looking pretty, its all meaningless. It wont make you happy.... give yourself to Vehks love, let him be flamboyant and extravagant for you and bathe in his glory.

I am max useable cp (until later today) I never ever did any grinding. I don't agree with all these nerfs, I have respectively disagreed, here where I have a voice and have given my opinion how they can achieve their goals differently. They don't listern to whining, to react to every complaint from every player would soon drive you to Uncle Sheo.

If you keep comparing this to other games and find it lacking go play those other games if you are miserable. Perhaps you are suffering sunk cost fallacy... perhaps you just need a short break to come back more refreshed. Perhaps you need a night out with Sanguine...

anitajoneb17_ESO

LadyAstrum wrote: »

Game companies are also to blame for allowing corporate types dictate development, instead of the people (the devs) who are truly passionate about the games they make.

You can't blame companies when they have no choice. The gaming industry is such an investment heavy business that they simply have no choice. ESO for instance started development SIX years prior to launch. That means they had to provide the cash for SIX YEARS for hundred(s?) of highly qualified people before even collecting the first penny from it. That's huge and implies a strong dependance on investors' markets. Which, obviously, without any further "ideals", go for the highest return on investment available. On this investors' market you can also find your very own bank (and mine too) where you chose to put your savings because they offered an interest rate 1 or even 0.1% higher than the other bank.

That's why all AAA games (and we expect always more of them, technically, graphically, etc..., making them even more investor-dependant) NEED to optimize profit, design for profit, think profit 24/7. They simply have no choice.

Tasear

Best mmo on the market is eso.

Demycilian

LadyAstrum wrote: »

This, I wonder, partially explains the explosion in cash shops. A lot of people don't want to pay subs anymore (goes back to player loyalty, amongst other things such as affordability), but companies want to make their money somehow.

Oh, I dunno about that. I think commitment to quality will win people over. When i log on to FFXIV these days i get a queue. By contrast half-baked ESO is down to selling loot boxes, some pretty stale content and a game world crawling with bots and exploiters.

Very much agreed with OP. Tho i wish it were otherwise.

LadyAstrum

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

LadyAstrum wrote: »

Game companies are also to blame for allowing corporate types dictate development, instead of the people (the devs) who are truly passionate about the games they make.

You can't blame companies when they have no choice. The gaming industry is such an investment heavy business that they simply have no choice. ESO for instance started development SIX years prior to launch. That means they had to provide the cash for SIX YEARS for hundred(s?) of highly qualified people before even collecting the first penny from it. That's huge and implies a strong dependance on investors' markets. Which, obviously, without any further "ideals", go for the highest return on investment available. On this investors' market you can also find your very own bank (and mine too) where you chose to put your savings because they offered an interest rate 1 or even 0.1% higher than the other bank.

That's why all AAA games (and we expect always more of them, technically, graphically, etc..., making them even more investor-dependant) NEED to optimize profit, design for profit, think profit 24/7. They simply have no choice.

Yes, I understand that, my impression (from being part of an alpha/beta development and observing how business can mess things up) is that the corporate side sometimes overshadows the creative side. There are good and not-so-good elements in all things.

I'm not going to break out the violins for game companies, sorry, they make a lot of money out of us gamers, and I happily pay it but I do insist on value for money.

anitajoneb17_ESO

LadyAstrum wrote: »

Yes, I understand that, my impression (from being part of an alpha/beta development and observing how business can mess things up) is that the corporate side sometimes overshadows the creative side. There are good and not-so-good elements in all things.

Maximisation of profit leads to many malfunctioning things, if not complete disasters in many areas - not only gaming - but that's how the system works and will continue to work until we, societies, replace it with something else, for better or worse.
All I'm saying is that a small company, in a business with smaller needs of working capital, may choose a different route (quality, ethics, environment-friendly processes, etc... ) but a video game company developing and running an AAA MMO cannot.

LadyAstrum wrote: »

I'm not going to break out the violins for game companies, sorry, they make a lot of money out of us gamers, and I happily pay it but I do insist on value for money.

Yes they make a lot of money out of successful games (but not all games are successful, by far... ) and only AFTER the developing investment, so the problem remains.
That doesn't mean that customers should pay more or demand less. Insisting on value for money is our right as customers - and I'd even say, our duty. Companies would provide more quality if customers would require more quality. We vote with our wallets.
But what can we do if so many players are just too happy to buy crown store stuff at any price ?

LadyAstrum

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

LadyAstrum wrote: »

Yes, I understand that, my impression (from being part of an alpha/beta development and observing how business can mess things up) is that the corporate side sometimes overshadows the creative side. There are good and not-so-good elements in all things.

Maximisation of profit leads to many malfunctioning things, if not complete disasters in many areas - not only gaming - but that's how the system works and will continue to work until we, societies, replace it with something else, for better or worse.
All I'm saying is that a small company, in a business with smaller needs of working capital, may choose a different route (quality, ethics, environment-friendly processes, etc... ) but a video game company developing and running an AAA MMO cannot.

LadyAstrum wrote: »

I'm not going to break out the violins for game companies, sorry, they make a lot of money out of us gamers, and I happily pay it but I do insist on value for money.

Yes they make a lot of money out of successful games (but not all games are successful, by far... ) and only AFTER the developing investment, so the problem remains.
That doesn't mean that customers should pay more or demand less. Insisting on value for money is our right as customers - and I'd even say, our duty. Companies would provide more quality if customers would require more quality. We vote with our wallets.
But what can we do if so many players are just too happy to buy crown store stuff at any price ?

Ok, I agree on your points. My first post was more an abstract mind-burst of possibilities in regards to the OP. I just think there are different reasons as to why some customers may feel alienated, or even disillusioned.

Peekachu99

http://steamcharts.com/app/306130

What are you actually reading from which to derive your assumptions? Game has been consistent in peak player pop and little spikes here and there since 1T. Scroll down and look from November 2016 and up. Next to no drop off at all. Peak and concurrents are all about the same. Before 1T there were a couple of thousand logins each day, as opposed to 10K. Don’t quote facts you can’t even interpret. My God.

Look at a game like Cliffy B’s latest flop to actually identify what a ‘decrease’ in popularity looks like. Most games would kill for stability in numbers like this.

Edit: Also, year over year, January is actually up by around 30% peak and average users. Meaning more people are playing this year than last. Ergo, the game is rising in popularity. Again, read the data and take time to understand it before you post.

Edit #2: Posts like this especially irritate me (and I’ve had my beefs with this game and the company that runs it), because they are completely emotional and devoid of factual arguments. They’re based on assumptions and feelings to justify one’s personal relationship (usually negative) with a game. The fact that you have ‘insightfuls’ when you literally made an incorrect speculative claim is even more irritating.

Peekachu99

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I stopped reading at "steam charts reveal this". Most players don't play over steam. At least most players on the forum don't, which I think is representative.

Steam Charts are a great, smaller sample size from which to extrapolate data—problem is the OP didn’t read them correctly.

zaria

JamuThatsWho wrote: »

Steam is not representative of the entire community.

The Crown Store/Crates are cosmetic and not necessary to buy.

It doesn't take that long to level up an alt.

These all sound like personal grievances.

Steam is between 1/2 and 1/3 of pc players, pc is 1/3 of all players. More fun player base has grown during the last year.

Leveling up alts don't take so long, once you reach level 50 the shared cp is an huge bonus as the things you do on alt like first time clear of dungeons will level all characters.

anitajoneb17_ESO

zaria wrote: »

Steam is between 1/2 and 1/3 of pc players, pc is 1/3 of all players.

Source ?

Tandor

lnsane wrote: »

AuldWolf wrote: »

there's a reason why the game has never gone above 8-10~k players on a good day (Steam Charts reveals this)

That chart only shows the percentage of PC/Mac players that play through Steam. It does not include the (possibly larger part) of players that play through ESO's own channels, nor does it give any information on the amount of players on either console platform. For a total picture, you'd want to know the amount of players on PC/Mac-Steam + PC/Mac-Regular + Xbox + PS4. Right now you're basing your conclusions on numbers regarding just one of those groups.

Moreover, the conclusions are based on false numbers. The OP says the game has never gone above 8,000-10,000 players on a good day, which is nonsense, and Steam is currently showing a peak figure in the last 24 hours (for part of which the servers were down) of 13,868. It'll doubtless be significantly higher still when the servers go back up with today's new DLC.

The game isn't dying, nor do new players see it as such. They see vibrant cities like Daggerfall, Davon's Watch and Vulkhel Guard where there are loads of players (at least on PC EU, can't speak for other servers). The biggest threat to that isn't the things that the OP lists, it's the demand from some players to be able to do everything in their homes rather than in the cities. The quickest way of killing off a game is to make the new player areas ghettos because everyone is playing the game shut away in their own private instances.

winterscrolls229prerb18_ESO

I just returned myself a few days ago.. (finally found a class that i never tried that happened to be genius!)

Can understand how you feel though, while i also feel a combination of mild resentment, 'the crown store isn't for me', zos are idiots for only going for casino whales... out of the wash it lands that..

They've really balanced the crown store for the subscription crowns. By far both in eso and in the entire industry the sub crowns are the best deal. Its almost stupid to purchase anything else. If you look at it from everyone is subbing and how everything is priced 2000 crowns plus, its really easily balanced for crown store + random impulses. Which also means they're going for their cake and wanting to eat it too.. everyones drunk happy on their sub not to notice they're subbing AND paying for extra microtransactions.

For me im going to fall back on the free option. Choosing not to fall for all the above, id say morrowind collectors edition plus targeted subbing to play the dlc at need is the way to go. Not sure what happens at endgame, or just move on

Peekachu99

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Steam is between 1/2 and 1/3 of pc players, pc is 1/3 of all players.

Source ?

His source falls asleep when on a cushion for too long and also makes the occasional obstreperous noise that stinks.

JamuThatsWho

winterscrolls229prerb18_ESO wrote: »

I just returned myself a few days ago.. (finally found a class that i never tried that happened to be genius!)

Can understand how you feel though, while i also feel a combination of mild resentment, 'the crown store isn't for me', zos are idiots for only going for casino whales... out of the wash it lands that..

They've really balanced the crown store for the subscription crowns. By far both in eso and in the entire industry the sub crowns are the best deal. Its almost stupid to purchase anything else. If you look at it from everyone is subbing and how everything is priced 2000 crowns plus, its really easily balanced for crown store + random impulses. Which also means they're going for their cake and wanting to eat it too.. everyones drunk happy on their sub not to notice they're subbing AND paying for extra microtransactions.

For me im going to fall back on the free option. Choosing not to fall for all the above, id say morrowind collectors edition plus targeted subbing to play the dlc at need is the way to go. Not sure what happens at endgame, or just move on

They're still 99% cosmetic items.