8-man scaled trials

Thorgrimn

I would love to see this implemented at some point and just scale the trial to 8 or 2 groups instead of 3. I know other MMORPGs have done this as well to allow for smaller guilds to be able to field a solid group and with less people it is easier to organize and plan. Any chance this feature could be implemented?

pauli133

What makes this problematic is that while it's trivial to scale down the HP, it's non-trivial to rescale mechanics - and even if you do, the whole thing still needs a separate balance pass.

What you end up with is a whole lot of work for something that shouldn't be a noticeably different experience for players.

(I'm totally down for some original eight player content)

LordGavus

pauli133 wrote: »

(I'm totally down for some original eight player content)

I think this is the way to go.
An 8 player version of the existing trials would be a lot of work for no real difference.


You could run some of the existing trials with 8 players on normal as a short term fix.

Cinbri

Would like trial for 2men group. We already have for 1, 4 and bunch of 12

Runefang

Existing trials aren't balanced for 3 groups, nobody is running 3 tanks and 3 healers. At most it's 2 tanks and 2 healers.

New 8 man trials is a great idea though. Some short 8-man AS-like trials would be a lot of fun.

Thorgrimn

pauli133 wrote: »

What makes this problematic is that while it's trivial to scale down the HP, it's non-trivial to rescale mechanics - and even if you do, the whole thing still needs a separate balance pass.

What you end up with is a whole lot of work for something that shouldn't be a noticeably different experience for players.

(I'm totally down for some original eight player content)

You make some very good points. I like your idea of 8 player original content and with that its own loot that could be similar too other trial loot. Maybe make it a similar setup to AS where you just fight bosses.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

24 man content could be fun

Tasear

Not scaling, but why not new trials with 8 or even 6. It will put less demand on performance thus introduction of new players into content. Thus people staying longer.

TeIvanni

LordGavus wrote: »

You could run some of the existing trials with 8 players on normal as a short term fix.

My group and I ran through both nMoL and nSO 4-man.

For the most part it's pretty smooth, as our dps is pretty high (for example, we burned manti faster than I've seen some 12 player pugs kill him).

Ozara was an interesting fight 4 man, needless to say.

Also lunar phase on nMoL was sketchy with 4 people.


But unfortunately, It's not possible to 4 man vHRC as top door doesn't open until 6 are in bottom.
And vAA requires the full 12 players to progress due to pad mechanics.

LordGavus

TeIvanni wrote: »

LordGavus wrote: »

You could run some of the existing trials with 8 players on normal as a short term fix.

My group and I ran through both nMoL and nSO 4-man.

For the most part it's pretty smooth, as our dps is pretty high (for example, we burned manti faster than I've seen some 12 player pugs kill him).

Ozara was an interesting fight 4 man, needless to say.

Also lunar phase on nMoL was sketchy with 4 people.


But unfortunately, It's not possible to 4 man vHRC as top door doesn't open until 6 are in bottom.
And vAA requires the full 12 players to progress due to pad mechanics.

Nice. I haven't tried any of the trials with less than 12. Considering I often pug them it probably a good thing

FakeFox

Tasear wrote: »

Not scaling, but why not new trials with 8 or even 6. It will put less demand on performance thus introduction of new players into content. Thus people staying longer.

Coregroups would run into problems then, as they have their amount of members adjusted to 12 player trials. I guess giving the option to scale new trials down would be cool, but having them 6/8 players only seems like a bad idea to me.

pauli133

FakeFox wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Not scaling, but why not new trials with 8 or even 6. It will put less demand on performance thus introduction of new players into content. Thus people staying longer.

Coregroups would run into problems then, as they have their amount of members adjusted to 12 player trials. I guess giving the option to scale new trials down would be cool, but having them 6/8 players only seems like a bad idea to me.

There are a whole lot more groups that have trouble reaching 12 than have premade teams of 12, and any group with the discipline to form a core group has the discipline to adjust along with new content. This is a non-issue.

Peekachu99

How about putting the damn normal trials back on activity finder already? It’s been two years, everything is now scaled, and normal trials are barely harder than normal four mans.

Flaminir

I kinda like the idea of newer trials with different numbers of players needed, but it would need a bit of thought beyond just ensuring that damage / HP of mobs was correctly scaled, EG a lot of buffs/heals are mechanically bound to 6 people.

If you were to run 8 then that would have to be accounted for.... 2 healers in an 8 person group feels a bit odd. Unless the dps checks in the content were scaled to suit just 4 or 5 DD's, and the outgoing damage was still scaled to fit two healers, but still feels like an awkward fit given the rest of the game. Maybe 2 or 6 person trials/arenas?

FakeFox

pauli133 wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Not scaling, but why not new trials with 8 or even 6. It will put less demand on performance thus introduction of new players into content. Thus people staying longer.

Coregroups would run into problems then, as they have their amount of members adjusted to 12 player trials. I guess giving the option to scale new trials down would be cool, but having them 6/8 players only seems like a bad idea to me.

There are a whole lot more groups that have trouble reaching 12 than have premade teams of 12, and any group with the discipline to form a core group has the discipline to adjust along with new content. This is a non-issue.

Having to kick players you have successfully played with for one or two years or put them as
substitute with the only reason being that you need less players is a serious problem. That's why I said give us both options and everyone is happy.

Tasear

FakeFox wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Not scaling, but why not new trials with 8 or even 6. It will put less demand on performance thus introduction of new players into content. Thus people staying longer.

Coregroups would run into problems then, as they have their amount of members adjusted to 12 player trials. I guess giving the option to scale new trials down would be cool, but having0q0 them 6/8 players only seems like a bad idea to me.

Dragon star arena is small size trial. Tanks cheese in///like/p

idk

Thorgrimn wrote: »

I would love to see this implemented at some point and just scale the trial to 8 or 2 groups instead of 3. I know other MMORPGs have done this as well to allow for smaller guilds to be able to field a solid group and with less people it is easier to organize and plan. Any chance this feature could be implemented?

It has been thought that the instance ideas that have brought us vDSA, vMA and vAS will eventually bring us a 6 man or 8 man instance.

However, I do not see Zos changing the existing instances. As someone pointed out, it changes some balance which is very obvious when one considers it is reducing the DPS by half but not reducing the tanking or healers in the group. Well, an vet instance that requires 2 tanks would still require 2 tanks.

Also, Future full trials will remain 12 man since that is the core design for raid groups in this game.

What can be done easier is a 24 man group. It is much easier to double a group. However server and graphics load would probably make this not so fun.

In the end, I do not see trials scaled to 8 man and it has been fine as 12 man all these years.

pauli133 wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Not scaling, but why not new trials with 8 or even 6. It will put less demand on performance thus introduction of new players into content. Thus people staying longer.

Coregroups would run into problems then, as they have their amount of members adjusted to 12 player trials. I guess giving the option to scale new trials down would be cool, but having them 6/8 players only seems like a bad idea to me.

There are a whole lot more groups that have trouble reaching 12 than have premade teams of 12, and any group with the discipline to form a core group has the discipline to adjust along with new content. This is a non-issue.

The same thing could be said for 8 man groups so it is not lean towards being beneficial. Heck, there are some that have said they want a soloable instance of trial. It is within Zos' rights to choose what size raid content should be and it has been find all these years at 12 man content.

pauli133

idk wrote: »

Thorgrimn wrote: »

I would love to see this implemented at some point and just scale the trial to 8 or 2 groups instead of 3. I know other MMORPGs have done this as well to allow for smaller guilds to be able to field a solid group and with less people it is easier to organize and plan. Any chance this feature could be implemented?

It has been thought that the instance ideas that have brought us vDSA, vMA and vAS will eventually bring us a 6 man or 8 man instance.

However, I do not see Zos changing the existing instances. As someone pointed out, it changes some balance which is very obvious when one considers it is reducing the DPS by half but not reducing the tanking or healers in the group. Well, an vet instance that requires 2 tanks would still require 2 tanks.

Also, Future full trials will remain 12 man since that is the core design for raid groups in this game.

What can be done easier is a 24 man group. It is much easier to double a group. However server and graphics load would probably make this not so fun.

In the end, I do not see trials scaled to 8 man and it has been fine as 12 man all these years.

pauli133 wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Not scaling, but why not new trials with 8 or even 6. It will put less demand on performance thus introduction of new players into content. Thus people staying longer.

Coregroups would run into problems then, as they have their amount of members adjusted to 12 player trials. I guess giving the option to scale new trials down would be cool, but having them 6/8 players only seems like a bad idea to me.

There are a whole lot more groups that have trouble reaching 12 than have premade teams of 12, and any group with the discipline to form a core group has the discipline to adjust along with new content. This is a non-issue.

The same thing could be said for 8 man groups so it is not lean towards being beneficial. Heck, there are some that have said they want a soloable instance of trial. It is within Zos' rights to choose what size raid content should be and it has been find all these years at 12 man content.

This is a specious argument. ZOS' inherent ability to make content of whatever size they like means that what they've done so far in no way limits what they decide to do next. To date, they have made content for one, four, and twelve player groups. They've tinkered with delves, group delves, group areas, public dungeons, group dungeons, solo and group arenas, linear trials, and player-configurable trials. Game designers like to try out new ideas; sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. They're going to keep delivering what they think players want (ie, will pay for) - that's going to be a mix of the tried and true, and the innovative.

"This is how it's been, so this is how it should always be" is foolish nonsense. Maybe we'll see content for groups of a different size, maybe we won't - but this thread is clearly demonstrating that there is player interest in it.

idk

pauli133 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Thorgrimn wrote: »

I would love to see this implemented at some point and just scale the trial to 8 or 2 groups instead of 3. I know other MMORPGs have done this as well to allow for smaller guilds to be able to field a solid group and with less people it is easier to organize and plan. Any chance this feature could be implemented?

It has been thought that the instance ideas that have brought us vDSA, vMA and vAS will eventually bring us a 6 man or 8 man instance.

However, I do not see Zos changing the existing instances. As someone pointed out, it changes some balance which is very obvious when one considers it is reducing the DPS by half but not reducing the tanking or healers in the group. Well, an vet instance that requires 2 tanks would still require 2 tanks.

Also, Future full trials will remain 12 man since that is the core design for raid groups in this game.

What can be done easier is a 24 man group. It is much easier to double a group. However server and graphics load would probably make this not so fun.

In the end, I do not see trials scaled to 8 man and it has been fine as 12 man all these years.

pauli133 wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Not scaling, but why not new trials with 8 or even 6. It will put less demand on performance thus introduction of new players into content. Thus people staying longer.

Coregroups would run into problems then, as they have their amount of members adjusted to 12 player trials. I guess giving the option to scale new trials down would be cool, but having them 6/8 players only seems like a bad idea to me.

There are a whole lot more groups that have trouble reaching 12 than have premade teams of 12, and any group with the discipline to form a core group has the discipline to adjust along with new content. This is a non-issue.

The same thing could be said for 8 man groups so it is not lean towards being beneficial. Heck, there are some that have said they want a soloable instance of trial. It is within Zos' rights to choose what size raid content should be and it has been find all these years at 12 man content.

This is a specious argument. ZOS' inherent ability to make content of whatever size they like means that what they've done so far in no way limits what they decide to do next. To date, they have made content for one, four, and twelve player groups. They've tinkered with delves, group delves, group areas, public dungeons, group dungeons, solo and group arenas, linear trials, and player-configurable trials. Game designers like to try out new ideas; sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. They're going to keep delivering what they think players want (ie, will pay for) - that's going to be a mix of the tried and true, and the innovative.

"This is how it's been, so this is how it should always be" is foolish nonsense. Maybe we'll see content for groups of a different size, maybe we won't - but this thread is clearly demonstrating that there is player interest in it.

LOL. It is as "specious" as the need for trials scaled to 8 man and it is just as foolish to say otherwise.

As I stated, Zos has the right to choose the raid size for their trials just as every other MMORPG does. They chose 8 man trials and no one in this thread has really come up with a valid reason for that to change. It is to hard for me to find 12 people to raid is an extremely inadequate rationale.

Mureel

More 4 man - love the hell out of VDSA - but a bit over it now with outdated fancies other than bow or resto....maybe fire staff for pvp or shock for the sorc build that uses it. I'm using a variant of the necro acuity build on my sorc though and loving it - if you have a hard time with la weaving because of ping - this build is fantastic.