About Malacath and Trinimac

nbhran3

if Malacath and Trinimac are the same person , why do Orcs fight about who's the one they should worship ? -_-

Froil

Even if they are the same, most Orsimer revere Malacath, but as Malacath was Trinimac, some think they should worship the original god-hero. Not to mention, since Malacath is a Daedra, and people don't look to kindly on Daedra worshipers... That's why, before Orsinium, King Kurog and the Orsimer of Wrothgar worshiped Mauloch before it was retconned to be Trinimac. Mauloch is essentially Malacath, but not perceived as a Daedra, so the Orsimer don't come off as "barbaric" and such to their allies.

Though I could be entirely wrong. That's just what I think.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Why does anyone ever argue about religious differences? They fight because they disagree.

That said, I do wonder if some aspect of Trinimac escaped being eaten by Boethiah, because his worship keeps coming back over the centuries - not prevalent but persistent.

nbhran3

Froil wrote: »

Even if they are the same, most Orsimer revere Malacath, but as Malacath was Trinimac, some think they should worship the original god-hero. Not to mention, since Malacath is a Daedra, and people don't look to kindly on Daedra worshipers... That's why, before Orsinium, King Kurog and the Orsimer of Wrothgar worshiped Mauloch before it was retconned to be Trinimac. Mauloch is essentially Malacath, but not perceived as a Daedra, so the Orsimer don't come off as "barbaric" and such to their allies.

Though I could be entirely wrong. That's just what I think.

Maybe you are correct about the Daedra worship part...
still i couldnt find any clear reason for them to fight over who to worship to because its the same Person !

wendal

Perhaps it's more a case of arguing over who not to worship!
They are supposedly the same entity but represent conflicting ideals of orsimer culture to the people that worship them, albeit quite similar ideals... but thats down to the observer/believer and their interpretations. It's all just a matter of how you look at things.
Sometimes it's best not to think too much into it...
My orsimer (as a formidable warrior and accomplished smithy) pays tribute to both and knows the only real difference is big TMac digs shiny Armour and Maldog digs a thong, there's nothing saying you can't wear both at the same time.

nbhran3

wendal wrote: »

Perhaps it's more a case of arguing over who not to worship!
They are supposedly the same entity but represent conflicting ideals of orsimer culture to the people that worship them, albeit quite similar ideals... but thats down to the observer/believer and their interpretations. It's all just a matter of how you look at things.
Sometimes it's best not to think too much into it...
My orsimer (as a formidable warrior and accomplished smithy) pays tribute to both and knows the only real difference is big TMac digs shiny Armour and Maldog digs a thong, there's nothing saying you can't wear both at the same time.

In my opinion Malacath is the one who made the Orcs what they are today and he is the one who should be worshipped by the Orcs .

ghastley

And as we all know, it's not who you worship, but how. Just look at real-life Catholic/Protestant or Sunni/Shia, or ...

Konstant_Tel_Necris

They are not same person, Trinimac was great elven god hero who aided Auri-El in wars with Lorkhan and humans, but during exodus of Veloth he shows weakness to his enemy and was tricked my Boethiah, she tortured him in her realm in challenges and changed him into Malacath and his mind became bent on revenge, there is Trinimac was dead and his followers become followers of Malacath and changed into orsimer.

In Ashpit realm of Malacath you can see remains of Trinimac, giant skeleton and garden of his soul, you can also found there Forge where is souls of dead orsimer go through similar challenges that's Trinimac passed to become stronger.

So that's why orthodox orsimer see Trinimac as flawed and weak and dont like how his cult, what was come again from Summerset, become stronger in walls of new Orsinium, previus Old Orsinium fall because of such weakness as ally trickery and Malacath punished weaklings and reachmens of Winterborn get his favor.

LMar

There's definite differences as pointed by some posts above.

To sum it up:

Trinimac was what was, both for Trinimac himself and his High Elven followers and Trinimac is what is, how both him and his followers changed from High Elves into Orsimer. They literally are not High Elves anymore and in the same act of mythic change both Trinimac and his followers changed into Malacath and the Orcs. They were changed, "twisted" and became a group of pariah people. Like Malacath who is not aedra anymore but not quite daedra as well.They both seek their place, and they are ready to fight for it.

Dracan_Fontom

If you take the stories for pure fact, then Trinimac and Malacath are the same person so to speak. In a lore book, forget which, the story goes that when Trinimac confronted Veloth and his follows, Boethiah appeared and swallowed Trinimac whole. Some time after, Boethiah excreted Trinimac who had become deformed, effectively creating Malacath.

That story has to be read with a grain of salt because TES lore loves to use metaphors.

newtinmpls

wendal wrote: »

the only real difference is big TMac digs shiny Armour and Maldog digs a thong, there's nothing saying you can't wear both at the same time.

I don't know whether to be disturbed or to ask for a pic

Korah_Eaglecry

Malacath is very much about being a victim and demanding his followers behave like they are victims. And many, and they have a point, feel that worshipping Malacath keeps the Orsimer from obtaining their full potential. Because when your god demands you go through trials and tribulations, that you suffer and then seek vengeance you are spending a whole lot of time in a cycle of loss and destruction. And not a whole lot of time is committed to building and growing.

Ajaxandriel

As for me, the myth is "false" by the very fact that Trinimac is still an Aedra. He has worshippers in Orsinium and the Vosh Rakh that can manifest holy spells thanks to him.
Moreover Trinimac have never ceased to be a god-hero-ancestor of the aldmer in Summerset.

So Trinimac is still Trinimac, not Malacath.

Who benefits from the lie? The dark elf and their gods do.
This tale is seemingly a boethian, velothi one, to begin with.

One story right to humiliate their rivals:
-the Altmer => their god-hero Trinimac (Aedra) is weak and dead, conquered and digested by Boethiah (Good Daedra) => inferior and weak
-the Orcs => their god-hero Malacath (Trouble Daedra) is a mere POOP, literally, excreted by Boethiah (Good Daedra) => inferior and stinky

"killing two birds with one stone" isn't it?

The orcish cults seem a bit different. Malacath is an ancestor-hero and an actual Daedra, but doest he confess being a poop himself? I think not. Just a stern god.
There's Mauloch too, who has his burial in Valenwood in ESO, iirc he looks like a mere ancestor-hero (ghost) rather than a Daedra.

Many orcs may have been led to believe the myth and now they seek their deep ancestry towards Trinimac, despite the Orsimer race itself predates the velothi wars (according to records).
...But that's not a problem. Not-Ancestor becoming one's god is already a thing for Humans, for example, they praise some Ayleid Aedra as Divines, even the Forebear Redguards do, etc.

Bruccius

It's not as simple as that. The worshippers as Trinimac don't see Malcath as the same deity, or a descendant of the deity.

The followers of Trinimac claim that Malcath tricked the Orcs into thinking Trinimac no longer exists. For this reason they fight the Malcath worshippers, as they see Malacath and his followers as, what could be described as, heretics.

PrayingSeraph

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

As for me, the myth is "false" by the very fact that Trinimac is still an Aedra. He has worshippers in Orsinium and the Vosh Rakh that can manifest holy spells thanks to him.
Moreover Trinimac have never ceased to be a god-hero-ancestor of the aldmer in Summerset.

So Trinimac is still Trinimac, not Malacath.

Who benefits from the lie? The dark elf and their gods do.
This tale is seemingly a boethian, velothi one, to begin with.

One story right to humiliate their rivals:
-the Altmer => their god-hero Trinimac (Aedra) is weak and dead, conquered and digested by Boethiah (Good Daedra) => inferior and weak
-the Orcs => their god-hero Malacath (Trouble Daedra) is a mere POOP, literally, excreted by Boethiah (Good Daedra) => inferior and stinky

"killing two birds with one stone" isn't it?

The orcish cults seem a bit different. Malacath is an ancestor-hero and an actual Daedra, but doest he confess being a poop himself? I think not. Just a stern god.
There's Mauloch too, who has his burial in Valenwood in ESO, iirc he looks like a mere ancestor-hero (ghost) rather than a Daedra.

Many orcs may have been led to believe the myth and now they seek their deep ancestry towards Trinimac, despite the Orsimer race itself predates the velothi wars (according to records).
...But that's not a problem. Not-Ancestor becoming one's god is already a thing for Humans, for example, they praise some Ayleid Aedra as Divines, even the Forebear Redguards do, etc.

Heh this post sounds like how I'd imagine an Altmer trying to rationalize Malacath and Trinimac.


Alas Greg Keyes book "Lord of Souls" seems to indicate at the very least that Malacath was once Trinimac. The exact nature of this transformation by Boethiah is ambigous, as well as the time frame. Some versions of the tale say the event happened in the Dawn era, not Merethic. Perhaps it did happen during the Velothi revolt, Vivec certainly thinks so. What Topal described as orcs may not actually "Orcs" as we call them aka Orsimer. Topal's description is very vague. The other Princes don't see Malacath as one as their own, likely alluding to his anuic origins. We also can be certain that Orcs are indeed the children of Malacath, as he sees them as such and his form is that of an orsimer. Orsimer literally means "Pariah Folk", which matches Malacath's very nature.

Bruccius

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

As for me, the myth is "false" by the very fact that Trinimac is still an Aedra. He has worshippers in Orsinium and the Vosh Rakh that can manifest holy spells thanks to him.
Moreover Trinimac have never ceased to be a god-hero-ancestor of the aldmer in Summerset.

So Trinimac is still Trinimac, not Malacath.

Who benefits from the lie? The dark elf and their gods do.
This tale is seemingly a boethian, velothi one, to begin with.

One story right to humiliate their rivals:
-the Altmer => their god-hero Trinimac (Aedra) is weak and dead, conquered and digested by Boethiah (Good Daedra) => inferior and weak
-the Orcs => their god-hero Malacath (Trouble Daedra) is a mere POOP, literally, excreted by Boethiah (Good Daedra) => inferior and stinky

"killing two birds with one stone" isn't it?

The orcish cults seem a bit different. Malacath is an ancestor-hero and an actual Daedra, but doest he confess being a poop himself? I think not. Just a stern god.
There's Mauloch too, who has his burial in Valenwood in ESO, iirc he looks like a mere ancestor-hero (ghost) rather than a Daedra.

Many orcs may have been led to believe the myth and now they seek their deep ancestry towards Trinimac, despite the Orsimer race itself predates the velothi wars (according to records).
...But that's not a problem. Not-Ancestor becoming one's god is already a thing for Humans, for example, they praise some Ayleid Aedra as Divines, even the Forebear Redguards do, etc.

Heh this post sounds like how I'd imagine an Altmer trying to rationalize Malacath and Trinimac.


Alas Greg Keyes book "Lord of Souls" seems to indicate at the very least that Malacath was once Trinimac. The exact nature of this transformation by Boethiah is ambigous, as well as the time frame. Some versions of the tale say the event happened in the Dawn era, not Merethic. Perhaps it did happen during the Velothi revolt, Vivec certainly thinks so. What Topal described as orcs may not actually "Orcs" as we call them aka Orsimer. Topal's description is very vague. The other Princes don't see Malacath as one as their own, likely alluding to his anuic origins. We also can be certain that Orcs are indeed the children of Malacath, as he sees them as such and his form is that of an orsimer. Orsimer literally means "Pariah Folk", which matches Malacath's very nature.

Orsimer in the Aldmeri language doesn't mean ''Pariah Folk'', but Orc, or Orc Folk. Hence Orsinium, aka, Orc-Town.

Ajaxandriel

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

As for me, the myth is "false" by the very fact that Trinimac is still an Aedra. He has worshippers in Orsinium and the Vosh Rakh that can manifest holy spells thanks to him.
Moreover Trinimac have never ceased to be a god-hero-ancestor of the aldmer in Summerset.

So Trinimac is still Trinimac, not Malacath.

Who benefits from the lie? The dark elf and their gods do.
This tale is seemingly a boethian, velothi one, to begin with.

One story right to humiliate their rivals:
-the Altmer => their god-hero Trinimac (Aedra) is weak and dead, conquered and digested by Boethiah (Good Daedra) => inferior and weak
-the Orcs => their god-hero Malacath (Trouble Daedra) is a mere POOP, literally, excreted by Boethiah (Good Daedra) => inferior and stinky

"killing two birds with one stone" isn't it?

The orcish cults seem a bit different. Malacath is an ancestor-hero and an actual Daedra, but doest he confess being a poop himself? I think not. Just a stern god.
There's Mauloch too, who has his burial in Valenwood in ESO, iirc he looks like a mere ancestor-hero (ghost) rather than a Daedra.

Many orcs may have been led to believe the myth and now they seek their deep ancestry towards Trinimac, despite the Orsimer race itself predates the velothi wars (according to records).
...But that's not a problem. Not-Ancestor becoming one's god is already a thing for Humans, for example, they praise some Ayleid Aedra as Divines, even the Forebear Redguards do, etc.

Heh this post sounds like how I'd imagine an Altmer trying to rationalize Malacath and Trinimac.

Hehe that is my purpose
The Old Ways

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Alas Greg Keyes book "Lord of Souls" seems to indicate at the very least that Malacath was once Trinimac. The exact nature of this transformation by Boethiah is ambigous, as well as the time frame. Some versions of the tale say the event happened in the Dawn era, not Merethic. Perhaps it did happen during the Velothi revolt, Vivec certainly thinks so. What Topal described as orcs may not actually "Orcs" as we call them aka Orsimer. Topal's description is very vague. The other Princes don't see Malacath as one as their own, likely alluding to his anuic origins. We also can be certain that Orcs are indeed the children of Malacath, as he sees them as such and his form is that of an orsimer. Orsimer literally means "Pariah Folk", which matches Malacath's very nature.

How an Expanded Universe novel would be a "proof of the Truth" of some sort? Myth is myth

Maybe it took place in the Dawn Era and thus I could believe that Malacath is a mutant Trinimac, then Veloth would have rewritten the myth to teach his followers (and for the glory of Boethiah)

Or one can take the thing otherwise - Veloth did invent the myth to illustrate the altmer-orsimer ancient link, and emphasize the might of the Good Daedra. Aside from this, Malacath was always Malacath, a hero-god or the already-existing indigenous Orsimer... so his orc features remained after his death and after his (anti)apotheosis as a Daedra. And he would be the "youngest" of the Daedra Princes, so that would explain his lonesome role among them.

Or anything in-between... ^^

PrayingSeraph

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

As for me, the myth is "false" by the very fact that Trinimac is still an Aedra. He has worshippers in Orsinium and the Vosh Rakh that can manifest holy spells thanks to him.
Moreover Trinimac have never ceased to be a god-hero-ancestor of the aldmer in Summerset.

So Trinimac is still Trinimac, not Malacath.

Who benefits from the lie? The dark elf and their gods do.
This tale is seemingly a boethian, velothi one, to begin with.

One story right to humiliate their rivals:
-the Altmer => their god-hero Trinimac (Aedra) is weak and dead, conquered and digested by Boethiah (Good Daedra) => inferior and weak
-the Orcs => their god-hero Malacath (Trouble Daedra) is a mere POOP, literally, excreted by Boethiah (Good Daedra) => inferior and stinky

"killing two birds with one stone" isn't it?

The orcish cults seem a bit different. Malacath is an ancestor-hero and an actual Daedra, but doest he confess being a poop himself? I think not. Just a stern god.
There's Mauloch too, who has his burial in Valenwood in ESO, iirc he looks like a mere ancestor-hero (ghost) rather than a Daedra.

Many orcs may have been led to believe the myth and now they seek their deep ancestry towards Trinimac, despite the Orsimer race itself predates the velothi wars (according to records).
...But that's not a problem. Not-Ancestor becoming one's god is already a thing for Humans, for example, they praise some Ayleid Aedra as Divines, even the Forebear Redguards do, etc.

Heh this post sounds like how I'd imagine an Altmer trying to rationalize Malacath and Trinimac.

Hehe that is my purpose
The Old Ways

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Alas Greg Keyes book "Lord of Souls" seems to indicate at the very least that Malacath was once Trinimac. The exact nature of this transformation by Boethiah is ambigous, as well as the time frame. Some versions of the tale say the event happened in the Dawn era, not Merethic. Perhaps it did happen during the Velothi revolt, Vivec certainly thinks so. What Topal described as orcs may not actually "Orcs" as we call them aka Orsimer. Topal's description is very vague. The other Princes don't see Malacath as one as their own, likely alluding to his anuic origins. We also can be certain that Orcs are indeed the children of Malacath, as he sees them as such and his form is that of an orsimer. Orsimer literally means "Pariah Folk", which matches Malacath's very nature.

How an Expanded Universe novel would be a "proof of the Truth" of some sort? Myth is myth

Maybe it took place in the Dawn Era and thus I could believe that Malacath is a mutant Trinimac, then Veloth would have rewritten the myth to teach his followers (and for the glory of Boethiah)

Or one can take the thing otherwise - Veloth did invent the myth to illustrate the altmer-orsimer ancient link, and emphasize the might of the Good Daedra. Aside from this, Malacath was always Malacath, a hero-god or the already-existing indigenous Orsimer... so his orc features remained after his death and after his (anti)apotheosis as a Daedra. And he would be the "youngest" of the Daedra Princes, so that would explain his lonesome role among them.

Or anything in-between... ^^

The novel is official canon, and essentially confirms the Trinimac turning into Malacath by the hands of Boethiah. This isn't based on some tale thats quoted in the book, but rather Malacath himself.

Again the only evidence that orcs may have been indigenous to Tamriel is a fragment from Topal's writings from the middle Merethic era, but he hardly describes what he saw. All we know is he referred to beings in a murky swamp he called orcs. This could have been anything. Goblins for example, or ogres.

The idea it is just a velothi myth and that Trinimac still exists is a cool theory dont get me wrong, but it's not well supported with actual official lore.

Besides, the "logistics" for it dont fit. It seems unlikely that both Wrothgarian and Valenwood orcs would believe a made up pro beothiah velothi myth let alone even know about it in the first place eons ago. If your theory is true, such a myth would have likely risen in Resdayn, far away from the Orcs in Wrothgar and Valenwood. A myth to portray history differently in favor of a pro Boethiah pro dunmer/chimer story would not have been believed let alone known to the Orsimer far in the West

But yeah, Lord of Souls has Malacath basically confirm the story of Boethiah somehow transforming Trinimac to Malacath, he just does not specify the details such as timeline. He does note that the idea Boethiah literally shot him out as a turd is too literal. But I think most believed that part wasnt literal. There is a part of Ashpit that's essentially a memorial of Malacath's past as Trinimac, and I also found it interesting how Malacath initially chose to look like a very beautiful aldmer like mer to the main character, only to grow more grotesque/orc like when he reveals himself. I also just remembered that in Malabal Tor, Boethiah herself speaks to you and mentions that she does not like Malacath and that they "have history". Again not something said by some fanatical mortal follower, but from a Prince itself.

Horker

i said this before somewhere but here we go again:

ROSES ARE RED, VIOLETS ARE BLUE, TRINIMAC IS DEAD, MALACATH IS TRUE