Time To Adjust Vigor Morphs

Vapirko

Vigor needs a single target burst morph. As it stands both morphs are aoe heals and that’s just silly. Echoing vigor more or less goes unused. Rally is a great burst heal of course, but because shuffle is relegated to medium armor (and medium is still in a subpar spot), most people are running forward momentum. The amount of snares in this game make this absolutely necessary. But this leaves small scale or solo players in a really tough spot and it seems like it could be time for a change. Thoughts?

Kikke

nope

Morgul667

Echoing vigor is used in PVE for tanks as support, helps to catch and save the DPS that ran away too far from the heal

Vapirko

Morgul667 wrote: »

Echoing vigor is used in PVE for tanks as support, helps to catch and save the DPS that ran away too far from the heal

Cool that’s fine, echoing vigor doesn’t need to change.

Vapirko

kikkehs wrote: »

nope

There’s always at least one.

Feanor

There is a reason stamina has no burst heals outside Rally. Blocking and dodging. First of all, turning resolving vigor into a burst heal would make taking FM a no brainer, no one would have to decide between better snare handling or a better heal. And second, you’d have powerful healing on top of already strong mitigation via blocking and dodging.

It’s a terrible idea.

Lord-Otto

Feanor wrote: »

There is a reason stamina has no burst heals outside Rally. Blocking and dodging. First of all, turning resolving vigor into a burst heal would make taking FM a no brainer, no one would have to decide between better snare handling or a better heal. And second, you’d have powerful healing on top of already strong mitigation via blocking and dodging.

It’s a terrible idea.

This.
Fear, you wanna bet how long it'll take people to bring up shields and turn this into a nerf sorc thread, buddy?
(^_-)

FloppyTouch

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

There is a reason stamina has no burst heals outside Rally. Blocking and dodging. First of all, turning resolving vigor into a burst heal would make taking FM a no brainer, no one would have to decide between better snare handling or a better heal. And second, you’d have powerful healing on top of already strong mitigation via blocking and dodging.

It’s a terrible idea.

This.
Fear, you wanna bet how long it'll take people to bring up shields and turn this into a nerf sorc thread, buddy?
(^_-)

#nerfsorcs

Zbigb4life

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

There is a reason stamina has no burst heals outside Rally. Blocking and dodging. First of all, turning resolving vigor into a burst heal would make taking FM a no brainer, no one would have to decide between better snare handling or a better heal. And second, you’d have powerful healing on top of already strong mitigation via blocking and dodging.

It’s a terrible idea.

This.
Fear, you wanna bet how long it'll take people to bring up shields and turn this into a nerf sorc thread, buddy?
(^_-)

#nerfsorcs

nerf them all

Slick_007

Vapirko wrote: »

kikkehs wrote: »

nope

There’s always at least one.

yes, we should all be thankful theres at least one person with a clue. this is a terrible idea and i actually use vigor.

Feanor

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

There is a reason stamina has no burst heals outside Rally. Blocking and dodging. First of all, turning resolving vigor into a burst heal would make taking FM a no brainer, no one would have to decide between better snare handling or a better heal. And second, you’d have powerful healing on top of already strong mitigation via blocking and dodging.

It’s a terrible idea.

This.
Fear, you wanna bet how long it'll take people to bring up shields and turn this into a nerf sorc thread, buddy?
(^_-)

The ironic thing is a lot of people here on the forum have the image of me being an adamant defender of the “ez mode OP class” and that I want to nerf all other classes therefore.

The reality is that no one would be happier if Sorc got a thorough rework, if shield stacking was gone in favor of a different and possibly more skillful and more reliable way of damage mitigation, if Overload was ditched and we got a good damage class ultimate finally, if pets along with the rest of Sorc skills were untoggled and had a better AI and UI, if Implosion was changed into a good sustain passive, and if we had a low cost low damage class spammable to open up builds away from Destro staves.

As for the other classes I’d totally support buffs in that case. Templars should finally have more than half their skills working and not relegated to being healbots (man playing Templar DD was so much fun 2 years ago), DKs have all the tools to really stand their ground (banners! The banners were so awesome 2015), and NBs should be the masters of dictating to fight when and where without the gank cheese, while Wardens would make superb Ice Mages and real Druids.

PvP would be the benchmark to balance against, and PvE adjusted accordingly. We’d have incremental patches every 2 weeks. I’d so love to play a game like that.

Asardes

IMO the healing from vigor has to be reduced slightly, by 20-30% for all morphs. The heal is too strong and it's simply easy mode now, both for PvE and PvP. And I play mostly stamina chars in PvP.

jaime1982

Asardes wrote: »

IMO the healing from vigor has to be reduced slightly, by 20-30% for all morphs. The heal is too strong and it's simply easy mode now, both for PvE and PvP. And I play mostly stamina chars in PvP.

Agree, needs to be reduced. Too strong as is

Vapirko

Feanor wrote: »

There is a reason stamina has no burst heals outside Rally. Blocking and dodging. First of all, turning resolving vigor into a burst heal would make taking FM a no brainer, no one would have to decide between better snare handling or a better heal. And second, you’d have powerful healing on top of already strong mitigation via blocking and dodging.

It’s a terrible idea.

Ok fair enough, what about a small burst heal followed by a smaller dot than current morph of RV. Im not talking about something that can out burst Rally. Rally would still be the go to for medium. The amount of skills that can snare in this game compared to the counter play is not balanced. Part of the reason Stamina builds are forced into the same freakin skills sets every damn time is primarily due to the way rally/fm and vigor work. You pretty much have to backbar a 2h if you don't front bar one. Why are these skills that are necessary for most stamina builds built into a 2h wpn? Maybe the problem isn't vigor but the way that the cluster f of snares and healing are tied together for stamina builds is a real pain.

Vapirko

Asardes wrote: »

IMO the healing from vigor has to be reduced slightly, by 20-30% for all morphs. The heal is too strong and it's simply easy mode now, both for PvE and PvP. And I play mostly stamina chars in PvP.

it was already nerfed. 20-30% is huge and would really *** over stamina builds. Most of PvE is easy mode with or without vigor. And anyway Im not really proposing a buff to vigor, just a change to the way it functions.

Asardes

Vapirko wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

IMO the healing from vigor has to be reduced slightly, by 20-30% for all morphs. The heal is too strong and it's simply easy mode now, both for PvE and PvP. And I play mostly stamina chars in PvP.

it was already nerfed. 20-30% is huge and would really *** over stamina builds. Most of PvE is easy mode with or without vigor. And anyway Im not really proposing a buff to vigor, just a change to the way it functions.

Most stamina players in PvP already run Rally on top of vigor and some classes have other heals as well. And I stand by it. There should be a reduction on heals from Vigor. I do agree that costs should be reduced as well by maybe 10-20% to encourage people to use it more proactively. You almost burst someone then casts vigor and fully heals in ~5s. That's not balanced by any means.

Drdeath20

On my stamina character between foward momentum and vigor im getting over 4k heals every 2 seconds in cyrodil. Plus aslong as i keep FM going every 6 seconds i have escapability.

I get what ur trying to say. That the other morph of vigor is less appealing but any adjustment to vigor would make the skill OP AF

Feanor

Vapirko wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

There is a reason stamina has no burst heals outside Rally. Blocking and dodging. First of all, turning resolving vigor into a burst heal would make taking FM a no brainer, no one would have to decide between better snare handling or a better heal. And second, you’d have powerful healing on top of already strong mitigation via blocking and dodging.

It’s a terrible idea.

Ok fair enough, what about a small burst heal followed by a smaller dot than current morph of RV. Im not talking about something that can out burst Rally. Rally would still be the go to for medium. The amount of skills that can snare in this game compared to the counter play is not balanced. Part of the reason Stamina builds are forced into the same freakin skills sets every damn time is primarily due to the way rally/fm and vigor work. You pretty much have to backbar a 2h if you don't front bar one. Why are these skills that are necessary for most stamina builds built into a 2h wpn? Maybe the problem isn't vigor but the way that the cluster f of snares and healing are tied together for stamina builds is a real pain.

Try play a non Templar Magicka character with usually something between 9k and 15k total stam. Mist Form and Efficient Purge are your only options for snare removal. Mist Form comes with the downside of being a Vampire, eating a lot more damage from DBoS and Prismatic Glyphs even if you stay in stage 1 (no undeath passive if you want no fire damage increase on top) and completely shutting down your mag Regen.

Efficient Purge - contrary to the name - is not efficient because snares are cheap and purge is not (not even considering that it takes up a precious bar slot and a GCD).

I agree snares should be toned down. But increasing stam burst heals is not the solution.

technohic

I’d be with you OP if stamina was not in a good place; but it is in a good place. And with nerfs to immovable pots and nerf to magdk, I feel like it’s moving even more so in stams favor.

Of all the 1 v xers I have seen; I think magicka DK was the last magicka class I saw as really strong outside a rare mag sorc here and there. MagNBs are decent but more of hit and run, not wrecking a bunch of people.

Now; with less uptime if immovable; it’s going to be easier to pressure magicka characters stam pool even with the ones running 12-15k Stam

Vapirko

technohic wrote: »

I’d be with you OP if stamina was not in a good place; but it is in a good place. And with nerfs to immovable pots and nerf to magdk, I feel like it’s moving even more so in stams favor.

Of all the 1 v xers I have seen; I think magicka DK was the last magicka class I saw as really strong outside a rare mag sorc here and there. MagNBs are decent but more of hit and run, not wrecking a bunch of people.

Now; with less uptime if immovable; it’s going to be easier to pressure magicka characters stam pool even with the ones running 12-15k Stam

Very true. Although in terms of mag DKs, you kind of need immov to fight them so the potion nerf goes both ways. How they’ll really do in terms of damage and permablocking next patch remains to be seen.

Vapirko

Feanor wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

There is a reason stamina has no burst heals outside Rally. Blocking and dodging. First of all, turning resolving vigor into a burst heal would make taking FM a no brainer, no one would have to decide between better snare handling or a better heal. And second, you’d have powerful healing on top of already strong mitigation via blocking and dodging.

It’s a terrible idea.

Ok fair enough, what about a small burst heal followed by a smaller dot than current morph of RV. Im not talking about something that can out burst Rally. Rally would still be the go to for medium. The amount of skills that can snare in this game compared to the counter play is not balanced. Part of the reason Stamina builds are forced into the same freakin skills sets every damn time is primarily due to the way rally/fm and vigor work. You pretty much have to backbar a 2h if you don't front bar one. Why are these skills that are necessary for most stamina builds built into a 2h wpn? Maybe the problem isn't vigor but the way that the cluster f of snares and healing are tied together for stamina builds is a real pain.

Try play a non Templar Magicka character with usually something between 9k and 15k total stam. Mist Form and Efficient Purge are your only options for snare removal. Mist Form comes with the downside of being a Vampire, eating a lot more damage from DBoS and Prismatic Glyphs even if you stay in stage 1 (no undeath passive if you want no fire damage increase on top) and completely shutting down your mag Regen.

Efficient Purge - contrary to the name - is not efficient because snares are cheap and purge is not (not even considering that it takes up a precious bar slot and a GCD).

I agree snares should be toned down. But increasing stam burst heals is not the solution.

I have played magplar. Idk but imo it’s one of the most survivable classes. Magplar is one of the classes where being vamp doesn’t bother me. Okay so I guess I’m wrong with this idea. Just trying to figure out how we can deal with snares and avoid being pushed into the same damn skills every time.

Vapirko

Asardes wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

IMO the healing from vigor has to be reduced slightly, by 20-30% for all morphs. The heal is too strong and it's simply easy mode now, both for PvE and PvP. And I play mostly stamina chars in PvP.

it was already nerfed. 20-30% is huge and would really *** over stamina builds. Most of PvE is easy mode with or without vigor. And anyway Im not really proposing a buff to vigor, just a change to the way it functions.

Most stamina players in PvP already run Rally on top of vigor and some classes have other heals as well. And I stand by it. There should be a reduction on heals from Vigor. I do agree that costs should be reduced as well by maybe 10-20% to encourage people to use it more proactively. You almost burst someone then casts vigor and fully heals in ~5s. That's not balanced by any means.

It’s possible but it relies on rally being timed properly which sometimes happens and sometimes not. Mostly only good players can do this effectively. And I would disagree, obviously, that stam heals are too strong right now. If anything they’re in an ok place and I’m just flat wrong, which is fine.

Feanor

Vapirko wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

There is a reason stamina has no burst heals outside Rally. Blocking and dodging. First of all, turning resolving vigor into a burst heal would make taking FM a no brainer, no one would have to decide between better snare handling or a better heal. And second, you’d have powerful healing on top of already strong mitigation via blocking and dodging.

It’s a terrible idea.

Ok fair enough, what about a small burst heal followed by a smaller dot than current morph of RV. Im not talking about something that can out burst Rally. Rally would still be the go to for medium. The amount of skills that can snare in this game compared to the counter play is not balanced. Part of the reason Stamina builds are forced into the same freakin skills sets every damn time is primarily due to the way rally/fm and vigor work. You pretty much have to backbar a 2h if you don't front bar one. Why are these skills that are necessary for most stamina builds built into a 2h wpn? Maybe the problem isn't vigor but the way that the cluster f of snares and healing are tied together for stamina builds is a real pain.

Try play a non Templar Magicka character with usually something between 9k and 15k total stam. Mist Form and Efficient Purge are your only options for snare removal. Mist Form comes with the downside of being a Vampire, eating a lot more damage from DBoS and Prismatic Glyphs even if you stay in stage 1 (no undeath passive if you want no fire damage increase on top) and completely shutting down your mag Regen.

Efficient Purge - contrary to the name - is not efficient because snares are cheap and purge is not (not even considering that it takes up a precious bar slot and a GCD).

I agree snares should be toned down. But increasing stam burst heals is not the solution.

I have played magplar. Idk but imo it’s one of the most survivable classes. Magplar is one of the classes where being vamp doesn’t bother me. Okay so I guess I’m wrong with this idea. Just trying to figure out how we can deal with snares and avoid being pushed into the same damn skills every time.

Yes, Magplar is the exception, though the cost increase on extended/purifying Ritual really did hurt. I think the solution has to start with the snares itself. They should be distinct utility skills with no other purpose so it’s a conscious decision you’re building for and not simply a bonus on top of damaging skills.

Maulkin

Asardes wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

IMO the healing from vigor has to be reduced slightly, by 20-30% for all morphs. The heal is too strong and it's simply easy mode now, both for PvE and PvP. And I play mostly stamina chars in PvP.

it was already nerfed. 20-30% is huge and would really *** over stamina builds. Most of PvE is easy mode with or without vigor. And anyway Im not really proposing a buff to vigor, just a change to the way it functions.

Most stamina players in PvP already run Rally on top of vigor and some classes have other heals as well. And I stand by it. There should be a reduction on heals from Vigor. I do agree that costs should be reduced as well by maybe 10-20% to encourage people to use it more proactively. You almost burst someone then casts vigor and fully heals in ~5s. That's not balanced by any means.

You can stand by the position but I find it a bit preposterous.

If you don't hit them in 5-6 secs then yes, Vigor plus Health Regen will top them up. Same as if you don't hit someone with a Healing Ward bubble around him for 6" he will go from 0-100% HP when the Heal Ward delivers the heal. Show me a build, any build, that can't fully heal in 5" if it avoids pressure and I'll show you a bad build.

For people that are under pressure and taking damage Vigor is not that strong, hence the dependence on Rally as well (or on Thicket/Shrooms for Wardens).

My only problems with some of these stamina heals like Vigor, is their AoE nature. Turning tanky or dodge builds with already high mitigation into team healers on top of it. Warden in particular with spores and thicket. You have 2-3 wardens grouping together and they work as each-others heal bots. The amount of support heals each one gets from the other is insane.

Was in a BG yesterday with friends and in a Chaosball game our heavy armor Stamina Warden (2h/sb classic) managed to put out 370k heals towards the group (and an unknown amount of self heals). I was on Sorc with Resto Ult and put out 60k heals. That's insane team heals for a build with both tremendous tankability and top class burst due to Sub Assault + DB combo.

However this is not a StamDen QQ thread. Returning to the Vigor discussion, I play with heavy armor StamBlade friend and he consistently puts out 150k heals with Vigor alone. That's what I don't like about Vigor. Not the single target heals it delivers.

GreenhaloX

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

There is a reason stamina has no burst heals outside Rally. Blocking and dodging. First of all, turning resolving vigor into a burst heal would make taking FM a no brainer, no one would have to decide between better snare handling or a better heal. And second, you’d have powerful healing on top of already strong mitigation via blocking and dodging.

It’s a terrible idea.

This.
Fear, you wanna bet how long it'll take people to bring up shields and turn this into a nerf sorc thread, buddy?
(^_-)

#nerfsorcs

#noneedtonerfanything
#nerfingskillsandtoonsarepisspoorbackwardprogress
#buffskillsforbalanceisforwardprogress
#buffvigorformagtoons
#bringbackannulmentforallarmortypes
#bringbackoriginalwarlockandmagician
#separatetoondissectionfrompveandpvp
#maketoonsgreatagain
#whatthehellisthishashtag#thinganyways
#ImcopyingthishashtagthingbutIdontunderstandit

raasdal

No thanks.

I play all Stam currently. Giving out universal burst heal would make stam even more OP than it already is.

Stam has dodgeroll, block etc etc. There is no universal magicka heal, so why should there be a stamina.

Slick_007

Asardes wrote: »

Most stamina players in PvP already run Rally on top of vigor and some classes have other heals as well. And I stand by it. There should be a reduction on heals from Vigor. I do agree that costs should be reduced as well by maybe 10-20% to encourage people to use it more proactively. You almost burst someone then casts vigor and fully heals in ~5s. That's not balanced by any means.

and what about all the stam people who dont run 2h? 5s is a long time for you to sit there and let them heal, which is apparently what you do.

Maulkin

Slick_007 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Most stamina players in PvP already run Rally on top of vigor and some classes have other heals as well. And I stand by it. There should be a reduction on heals from Vigor. I do agree that costs should be reduced as well by maybe 10-20% to encourage people to use it more proactively. You almost burst someone then casts vigor and fully heals in ~5s. That's not balanced by any means.

and what about all the stam people who dont run 2h? 5s is a long time for you to sit there and let them heal, which is apparently what you do.

What about all the magicka people that also want a burst heal without slotting resto? Sorcs, NBs and Wardens say hi.

The answer to you is the same as the answer to them. Deal with it.

Chrlynsch

If you want a burst heal as a stamina character just go werewolf, just be sure to stack magicka and Spell power... wait a second... that's a really dumb design...

JobooAGS

Maulkin wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Most stamina players in PvP already run Rally on top of vigor and some classes have other heals as well. And I stand by it. There should be a reduction on heals from Vigor. I do agree that costs should be reduced as well by maybe 10-20% to encourage people to use it more proactively. You almost burst someone then casts vigor and fully heals in ~5s. That's not balanced by any means.

and what about all the stam people who dont run 2h? 5s is a long time for you to sit there and let them heal, which is apparently what you do.

What about all the magicka people that also want a burst heal without slotting resto? Sorcs, NBs and Wardens say hi.

The answer to you is the same as the answer to them. Deal with it.

Wardens have a burst heal, enchanted growth...

Maulkin

JobooAGS wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Most stamina players in PvP already run Rally on top of vigor and some classes have other heals as well. And I stand by it. There should be a reduction on heals from Vigor. I do agree that costs should be reduced as well by maybe 10-20% to encourage people to use it more proactively. You almost burst someone then casts vigor and fully heals in ~5s. That's not balanced by any means.

and what about all the stam people who dont run 2h? 5s is a long time for you to sit there and let them heal, which is apparently what you do.

What about all the magicka people that also want a burst heal without slotting resto? Sorcs, NBs and Wardens say hi.

The answer to you is the same as the answer to them. Deal with it.

Wardens have a burst heal, enchanted growth...

I think our definition of burst is different. Enchanted growth does not compare to bust heal you get from skills like: HtD/BoL, Heal Ward, Rally, Burning Embers etc. If you cast it at low health you barely get to mid-health, never mind low to full. Most mag wardens use Heal Ward because it’s so much better.