Theorycrafting the ultimate 4-man (vDSA) group

pizzaow

What classes, sets and priority skills would make for the "best" 4-man group composition?

Assume you are trying to set a new record for vDSA, so the players are experienced and can pull the high-end expected numbers for that class.

What would you build and why?

Masel

Dk Tank with earthgore. NMG in heavy and spc with blood altar and lightning staff back bar.

Then three stamina dds,nightblade with VO and hundings.

Stamsorc with VO and hundings and a negate. Maybe switch to Sunder on boss rounds.


Stamplar with war machine and powerful assault. That's the usual #1 combo.

kaithuzar

I thought it was just 4 stam wardens, or is that pvp only?

ccfeeling

4 Pet Sorc DPS .
NEC ( Highly recommand ) +
IA / Juli / Netch / Acuity , whatever you want , there are too many choices...lol

Damage is rule number 1 in this game .
Pet Sorc provides amazing dps , survivability and pick up support at the same time .

Tank is really not require in VDSA once you well know all mechanics of all stages .

Qbiken

Masel92 wrote: »

Dk Tank with earthgore. NMG in heavy and spc with blood altar and lightning staff back bar.

Then three stamina dds,nightblade with VO and hundings.

Stamsorc with VO and hundings and a negate. Maybe switch to Sunder on boss rounds.


Stamplar with war machine and powerful assault. That's the usual #1 combo.

How would a stamina warden be instead of a DK tank? You can apply and AoE fracture and with some practice I could see warden portals being just as good as chains. A warden tank can also use warmachine and use tree-ult from time to time to increase group DPS.

Masel

Qbiken wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Dk Tank with earthgore. NMG in heavy and spc with blood altar and lightning staff back bar.

Then three stamina dds,nightblade with VO and hundings.

Stamsorc with VO and hundings and a negate. Maybe switch to Sunder on boss rounds.


Stamplar with war machine and powerful assault. That's the usual #1 combo.

How would a stamina warden be instead of a DK tank? You can apply and AoE fracture and with some practice I could see warden portals being just as good as chains. A warden tank can also use warmachine and use tree-ult from time to time to increase group DPS.

Can also work yes, but chains are still easier to use, and I haven't seen anyone put the effort in to train a warden tank in there to its maximum potential...

SaintSubwayy

Warden tank is better than DK tank in vDSA and heres why;
They can use their portal to move the spawningportals from cc immune adds to your group. Thus letting the cc immune adds spawn in your group / aoes
They can have mutliple portals up at the same time, by this they can instantly chain nearly the whole addwave into your aoes.
They have decent healing so you can run wihtout a dedicated healer, and dont have to keep a 100% shield uptime

For DDs Id prefer a 2 sorc 1 stam setup (gona change with update 17 due to offbalance changes)
2 sorc with negate for certain bossfights and destroults to burn the add waves
1 stamina for vigor (if needed) and high singletarget dps

Masel

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Warden tank is better than DK tank in vDSA and heres why;
They can use their portal to move the spawningportals from cc immune adds to your group. Thus letting the cc immune adds spawn in your group / aoes
They can have mutliple portals up at the same time, by this they can instantly chain nearly the whole addwave into your aoes.
They have decent healing so you can run wihtout a dedicated healer, and dont have to keep a 100% shield uptime

For DDs Id prefer a 2 sorc 1 stam setup (gona change with update 17 due to offbalance changes)
2 sorc with negate for certain bossfights and destroults to burn the add waves
1 stamina for vigor (if needed) and high singletarget dps

When you look at the current leaderboards, the top 20-30 groups exclusively run dk tanks...

What you prefer is not relevant to the OP, because the thread is about the #1 team, and I've been in the #1 team EU and that's objectively what is used there...

Asardes

1 DK Tank + 3 Magicka NB DD

pizzaow

Masel92 wrote: »

Dk Tank with earthgore. NMG in heavy and spc with blood altar and lightning staff back bar.

Then three stamina dds,nightblade with VO and hundings.

Stamsorc with VO and hundings and a negate. Maybe switch to Sunder on boss rounds.


Stamplar with war machine and powerful assault. That's the usual #1 combo.

Thanks for the insight. I'm wondering if a magsorc would be better than a stamsorc... a magsorc would be running lightning wall (so off balance uptime should be a wash). This would free up the tank to run a resto staff where they could apply combat prayer, although the tank would need to run another ground aoe to proc NMG, but they could run ash cloud which lasts twice as long and includes a snare.

For the DPS:
* The nightblade should be equivalent (since they wouldn't benefit from combat prayer).
* The stamplar should see an 8% boost with combat prayer, everything else would remain the same
* The mag sorc would:
lose out on ~5% DPS (since physicial pen from NMG doesn't matter; I'm using the estimate that every 1000K pen roughly equals 2% DPS ).
gain 8% DPS from combat prayer
gain AOE damage
lose single target damage

If you are running sunder then I think the scale would tip to the stam sorc side, but it seems pretty close. Is there something else I'm not considering?

pizzaow

Qbiken wrote: »

How would a stamina warden be instead of a DK tank? You can apply and AoE fracture and with some practice I could see warden portals being just as good as chains. A warden tank can also use warmachine and use tree-ult from time to time to increase group DPS.

A DK can run AOE major fracture (noxious breath). I think the biggest benefit of a warden is survivability... You basically have built in ebon (minor toughness) and you'd be giving everyone their major resistances. I like the war machine+tree theory; do you think that's better than SPC+Warhorn? It definitely adds even more survivability! If you are excellent about portal placement, you could pull enemies (theoretically faster) than chains. However, if you don't pre-lay the portals, then I'd image it's a little slower.

@Liofa, you have a lot of experience with both a DK and Warden tanks. Which would you recommend for leader-board runs in vDSA?

WrathOfInnos

I think ideally it would be:

DK tank with Ebon + Dragonguard + Bloodspawn, Infused Crusher, Chains, Warhorn

Mag NB DPS with funnel health (HoT) wearing SPC + Master Architect

Mag Sorc DPS with Twilight Matriarch (burst heal), Crystal Frags (minor prophecy), Crushing Shock (interrupt)

Stamplar DPS with Power of the Light (min Frac, Breach, and Sorcery), Vigor, Repentence, War Machine or Powerful Assault, Two Fang

Liofa

pizzaow wrote: »

A DK can run AOE major fracture (noxious breath). I think the biggest benefit of a warden is survivability... You basically have built in ebon (minor toughness) and you'd be giving everyone their major resistances. I like the war machine+tree theory; do you think that's better than SPC+Warhorn? It definitely adds even more survivability! If you are excellent about portal placement, you could pull enemies (theoretically faster) than chains. However, if you don't pre-lay the portals, then I'd image it's a little slower.

@Liofa, you have a lot of experience with both a DK and Warden tanks. Which would you recommend for leader-board runs in vDSA?

It is indeed about portal placement . If you are good at that , portals are faster and more reliable than chains . For example , you can chains 3 enemies at once while still debuffing boss , prepare portals between rounds and fights to make it faster .

I've never ran it for score or did any tactics that make it faster . To my experience , chaining is far superior on Warden tank . Not only because it has more range and can be used as a trap , because it can pull large and immune targets . For example , you can pull Frost Mages that hide behind a frost wall that normally prevents Unrelenting Grip . I am not sure if you can pull the big Gargoyles in the Curse Platform stage (can't remember the name) with Unrelenting Grip but with portals you definitely can . Portals are superior to chains if you know how to place them . Again , I am not a DSA master so that's all I will say .

Teuton67

My favorite current setup when I'm tanking is:

DK tank with Livewire on the front with shock staff on the back bar plus Dragon.

Magblade with Funnel Health, SPC and Master Architect

Stamsorc with NMG and Negate

StamDK with Sunderflame

Teuton67

My favorite current setup when I'm tanking is:

DK tank with Livewire on the front with shock staff on the back bar plus Dragon.

Magblade with Funnel Health, SPC and Master Architect

Stamsorc with NMG and Negate

StamDK with Sunderflame

Masel

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think ideally it would be:

DK tank with Ebon + Dragonguard + Bloodspawn, Infused Crusher, Chains, Warhorn

Mag NB DPS with funnel health (HoT) wearing SPC + Master Architect

Mag Sorc DPS with Twilight Matriarch (burst heal), Crystal Frags (minor prophecy), Crushing Shock (interrupt)

Stamplar DPS with Power of the Light (min Frac, Breach, and Sorcery), Vigor, Repentence, War Machine or Powerful Assault, Two Fang

As I already said, the top teams use 3 stamina dds...

And the tank setup I listed is the one that the #1 EU tank uses. I have yet to see a setup that can beat the one I listed, in a real score scenario.

The only thing you can technically swap is a magsorc for one of the stamina dds for the execute and to maximise AoE potential. I've used my charged magsorc build for a score up to 47763.. Which is still about 1k off the current world record.

WrathOfInnos

Masel92 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I think ideally it would be:

DK tank with Ebon + Dragonguard + Bloodspawn, Infused Crusher, Chains, Warhorn

Mag NB DPS with funnel health (HoT) wearing SPC + Master Architect

Mag Sorc DPS with Twilight Matriarch (burst heal), Crystal Frags (minor prophecy), Crushing Shock (interrupt)

Stamplar DPS with Power of the Light (min Frac, Breach, and Sorcery), Vigor, Repentence, War Machine or Powerful Assault, Two Fang

As I already said, the top teams use 3 stamina dds...

And the tank setup I listed is the one that the #1 EU tank uses. I have yet to see a setup that can beat the one I listed, in a real score scenario.

Yeah, I believe you. Still, I would say 9/10 healerless groups will score better with Magicka than Stamina due to vitality alone. Magicka nightblade can very nearly compete with stamina for single target DPS, and provides more passive healing. And once things get chained in it's hard to beat a Mag Sorc for AoE.

The 1/10 groups that can go deathless on stamina without a healer will likely pull more DPS and get record breaking scores. Especially since stamina have so much synergy with sets like Sunderflame and Night Mothers. Maybe this is the scenario OP is thinking, but in my experience, completely self-sustaining stamina DPS are rare.

This might change slightly with the upcoming bone shield buff. If it becomes a shield that is worth using on stamina and provides a nice synergy.

Asardes

I tried Warden Frozen Device and disliked them. Placement is one thing, but they take 3 seconds to arm. You can cast them at the rate of one second you can pull 3 enemies in 7 seconds, and more if you keep casting them; yes for the first 3 enemies in a round may be OK, since you can indeed leave them armed, but as they keep spawning chains are more reliable. And another problem is aiming, especially at longer ranges. If the enemy moves before the portal arms, or if you lift your cursor a bit high, you'll end up missing them and wasting magicka. Also the 28 m vs. 22 m range isn't that much, since Unrelenting Grip gives major expedition for a few seconds, and you can simply move a bit and grab enemies faster. I find them really clunky and I also disliked the Warden heals. They are simply too slow and won't cut it when you are taking heavy damage in a short time. Even if you stack Leeching Vines, Arctic Wind and Vigor you simply can't heal fast enough in some fights, and then you'll have to sacrifice Aggressive Horn for Healing Thicket just to keep yourself alive. On a DK you can heal from the brink of death for almost 50% with Green Dragon Blood (with your other buffs), top that up with a few ticks of Vigor and you're at full health in 3s. That's crucial when not running a dedicated healer. Warden can tank well if it has adequate support, and in some situations it's better than the DK chiefly due to one skill - Shimmering Shield, if you have a ranged attack coming at you. But without support, the gap is really big. I've abandoned the idea of making a Warden tank because I tried it and disliked it; it's simply worse than the DK in practice.

Asardes

Also if I tank vDSA, or any 4 man content without a healer, I want to have as strong sustain as possible, without affecting group utility. And it simply boiled down to 2 sets, and 2 disparate monster sets. 5 Armor of the Seducer 5 Akaviri Dragonguard 1 Choklethorn 1 Shadowrend. Because all your skills are magicka, and better magicka sustain means better stamina sustain, and more ultimate, and cheaper ultimates mean better healing and sustain in turn. If there's only one warhorn in group you want that to be up as much as possible. Also this setup is good when off-tanking, when you don't need the absolute maximum debuffs but you need to keep mobs on you for prolonged periods without assistance. Next patch sustain becomes even more important since minimum block cost - I don't minimize that anyway - will be higher, and you can't simply rely on blocking forever.

RazorCaltrops

Masel92 wrote: »

Dk Tank with earthgore. NMG in heavy and spc with blood altar and lightning staff back bar.

Then three stamina dds,nightblade with VO and hundings.

Stamsorc with VO and hundings and a negate. Maybe switch to Sunder on boss rounds.


Stamplar with war machine and powerful assault. That's the usual #1 combo.

Pretty much this OP. You can talk with your friends you run DSA with and play around with this composition (i.e. magblade instead of stamblade, NMG on a DD and Torug’s + SPC on tank etc.). Calculate the max penetration you can achieve as a group of 4 and adjust CP / Mundus stones according to group composition.

In the end, support sets that are mentioned (NMG + PA + WM + SPC) are the essentials for an optimal DSA score run group that allow you to burst things down if the players are experienced.

mursie

Masel92 wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Warden tank is better than DK tank in vDSA and heres why;
They can use their portal to move the spawningportals from cc immune adds to your group. Thus letting the cc immune adds spawn in your group / aoes
They can have mutliple portals up at the same time, by this they can instantly chain nearly the whole addwave into your aoes.
They have decent healing so you can run wihtout a dedicated healer, and dont have to keep a 100% shield uptime

For DDs Id prefer a 2 sorc 1 stam setup (gona change with update 17 due to offbalance changes)
2 sorc with negate for certain bossfights and destroults to burn the add waves
1 stamina for vigor (if needed) and high singletarget dps

When you look at the current leaderboards, the top 20-30 groups exclusively run dk tanks...

What you prefer is not relevant to the OP, because the thread is about the #1 team, and I've been in the #1 team EU and that's objectively what is used there...

@Masel92 Is the main tank DK a magDK or stamDK? WOuld you have a build for this tank?

Asardes

Most standard tanks have about 18-20K in both stamina and magicka, the former a bit high in order to make use of the synergies to restore it, with the remaining in health. With Glyphs of Prismatic Defense, Undaunted Mettle, various racial passives, depending on gear, you're looking at between 38-45K health. Having high health benefits a DK because you have two important skills that scale off it: Green Dragon Blood, that heals for 1/3 of your missing health - but can be buffed to up to almost 50% in practice with various bonuses to healing done & taken - and Igneous Shield that scales to 1/3 of your health for you and 1/6 for others in range - buffed by up to 25% by CP in Bastion. Also having a high HP means you can reduce the risks of using Balance to recover magicka, since it's cost is proportionally lower; obviously you won't use that in vDSA or other 4 man content if running without a dedicated healer, and sustain in other ways, such as stacking high magicka recovery.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. Igneous Shield that scales to 1/3 of your health for you and 1/6 for others in range

They nerfed the ward you give to the team, it is now 10% of your max health or in the terms you are using, 1/10. And now that I think about it, it was 15% of your max health before, not 1/6, 1/6 is 17% and 1/3 is 33% which is wrong too, it is only 30% of your max health. Not quite sure why you are using fractions when they are percentages.

I really do not recommend using CP to buff igneous shields much either. You need to use those CP in the damage reduction nodes and since those nodes also apply for sheilds, it is like you are buffing your sheilds as well.

Masel

mursie wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Warden tank is better than DK tank in vDSA and heres why;
They can use their portal to move the spawningportals from cc immune adds to your group. Thus letting the cc immune adds spawn in your group / aoes
They can have mutliple portals up at the same time, by this they can instantly chain nearly the whole addwave into your aoes.
They have decent healing so you can run wihtout a dedicated healer, and dont have to keep a 100% shield uptime

For DDs Id prefer a 2 sorc 1 stam setup (gona change with update 17 due to offbalance changes)
2 sorc with negate for certain bossfights and destroults to burn the add waves
1 stamina for vigor (if needed) and high singletarget dps

When you look at the current leaderboards, the top 20-30 groups exclusively run dk tanks...

What you prefer is not relevant to the OP, because the thread is about the #1 team, and I've been in the #1 team EU and that's objectively what is used there...

@Masel92 Is the main tank DK a magDK or stamDK? WOuld you have a build for this tank?

I usually tank it with 10k stamina and 30k magicka so you can infinetely sustain throughout the rounds. Build i use is this one:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/401772/igneous-lizard-wizard-dk-pve-tank-build-dragon-bones#latest

Asardes

Masel92 wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Warden tank is better than DK tank in vDSA and heres why;
They can use their portal to move the spawningportals from cc immune adds to your group. Thus letting the cc immune adds spawn in your group / aoes
They can have mutliple portals up at the same time, by this they can instantly chain nearly the whole addwave into your aoes.
They have decent healing so you can run wihtout a dedicated healer, and dont have to keep a 100% shield uptime

For DDs Id prefer a 2 sorc 1 stam setup (gona change with update 17 due to offbalance changes)
2 sorc with negate for certain bossfights and destroults to burn the add waves
1 stamina for vigor (if needed) and high singletarget dps

When you look at the current leaderboards, the top 20-30 groups exclusively run dk tanks...

What you prefer is not relevant to the OP, because the thread is about the #1 team, and I've been in the #1 team EU and that's objectively what is used there...

@Masel92 Is the main tank DK a magDK or stamDK? WOuld you have a build for this tank?

I usually tank it with 10k stamina and 30k magicka so you can infinetely sustain throughout the rounds. Build i use is this one:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/401772/igneous-lizard-wizard-dk-pve-tank-build-dragon-bones#latest

That's a nice build, and it includes a lot of utility, but it's too tightly tailored for a single piece of content to my liking. Also in vDSA there are few fights where you need to block for a long time, but it's indeed a strain on magicka due to the trash packs. I also found quite easy to sustain even without Balance, and with a magicka pool of only about 18-19K, even without the Argonian passive, or even destruction staff since I have 1H+S on both bars by simply pushing the recovery to about 1.8K and using potions from time to time (dropped magicka ones for the most part). I could actually try to copy it, since I have SPC 1H & Shield, as well as Ebon or Torug.

The only part I dislike is the 10K stamina pool, which is too low to make use of Battle Roar passive efficiently, which is 11.5K restore for a Warhorn, meaning each time you use horn, at least 1.5K will be wasted there, even if you don't also count the Argonian Resourceful passive, that's another 4.6K. I would still go for at least 16K there. Having a large magicka pool offers no particular advantage when it comes to healing since Blood Altar life steal is a fixed amount and the synergy heal scales on your allies health. Your damaging abilities like Engulfing Flames and Blockade will receive a slight boost but that's inconsequential.