Repentance skill & Executioner passive - feedback (and magDK briefly)

aeowulf

Please review the way these skills proc. They both use an 'on death' condition which makes them both somewhat redundant in a longer single target fight as they will not proc until the fight is over. Single target fights also tend to be the more important (boss) fights where resource management is key.


Regarding Repentance specifically, this skill becomes particularly bad when there are multiple grouped members with it slotted as corpses can only be consumed once and set proc'd 'corpses' are no longer consumable. Could this be changed be to allow consecrated corpses to give the stamina benefit to anyone ese in the group with 'Repentance' also slotted (any bar). However, it does nothing remove the on death condition which is the bigger issue with this skill. (Minor stamina steal is the logical mirror effect to radiant aura).


Regarding the NB executioner passive specifically, it's also redundant in a single target fight scenario whilst being particularly clunky for an NB tank to use even when there are adds around. Tanks (esp NB) do not have the required tools to CC everything. A 'making life a bit easier' change, it would be to proc if a mob within 28m of you dies. However, this also does nothing remove the on death condition which is the bigger issue. For that the passsive would need a significant change, ideally to to proc on a successful dodge (15% chance, blur - assasination skill line). This would be a good choice as it's something which a tanking NB would get a higher usage from, whilst they get a more limited use from the leeching strikes tree compared to a NB DPS.

On a side note, magDK. Helping Hands is pidgeon holed into restoring stamina only. I'm not sure where a magDK gets their resources from now, but there should probably be a stamina morph or two in that tree somewhere which restores magicka as that skill is particularly one sided.

Aeo

DeadlyRecluse

I don't think the "they aren't useful in single target fights" is a particularly good justification for a rework of skills/passives with "on death" conditions. Not all skills need to be optimal in every fight, for every class, imo.

Repentance, in particular, is a unique and powerful skill--it would be a real pity for it to be changed to something as bland as an application of minor stamina steal. Agreed that the issue with multiple users competing for corpses is a problem.

aeowulf

That's true, but ZoS are currently reviewing the way skills work and tweaking the unused ones.

If you think about it, neither will actually proc during a fight, which certainly flags it as unused in combat. They only proc when your fight with your target is finished. Whether you are in combat with something else or not is largely irrelevant to the function of the skill.

Not all spells need to optimal, this is right, and it would/does make certain classes particularly powerful in certain roles. However in ESO single target fights are often the ones which are important, so in this instance I do consider it a good reason to review the way certain skill types work, especially when they are not used during important fights.

Minno

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I don't think the "they aren't useful in single target fights" is a particularly good justification for a rework of skills/passives with "on death" conditions. Not all skills need to be optimal in every fight, for every class, imo.

Repentance, in particular, is a unique and powerful skill--it would be a real pity for it to be changed to something as bland as an application of minor stamina steal. Agreed that the issue with multiple users competing for corpses is a problem.

Plus these issues help offset builds stacking fully into DMG. It night not be easily accessible Regen, but it has synergy with kicking ass quickly.

DeadlyRecluse

Minno wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

I don't think the "they aren't useful in single target fights" is a particularly good justification for a rework of skills/passives with "on death" conditions. Not all skills need to be optimal in every fight, for every class, imo.

Repentance, in particular, is a unique and powerful skill--it would be a real pity for it to be changed to something as bland as an application of minor stamina steal. Agreed that the issue with multiple users competing for corpses is a problem.

Plus these issues help offset builds stacking fully into DMG. It night not be easily accessible Regen, but it has synergy with kicking ass quickly.

Exactly. And (for Repentance) it's a sustain skill that has to be cast responsively rather than maintained on a mindless timer. AND it makes use of a unique resource, corpses.

Everything about repentance, besides the competing-with-group-members thing, is amazing and interesting design.

aeowulf wrote: »

That's true, but ZoS are currently reviewing the way skills work and tweaking the unused ones.

...but neither of these skills are remotely near unused.

aeowulf wrote: »

If you think about it, neither will actually proc during a fight, which certainly flags it as unused in combat. They only proc when your fight with your target is finished. Whether you are in combat with something else or not is largely irrelevant to the function of the skill.

Not all spells need to optimal, this is right, and it would/does make certain classes particularly powerful in certain roles. However in ESO single target fights are often the ones which are important, so in this instance I do consider it a good reason to review the way certain skill types work, especially when they are not used during important fights.

Fights don't "reset" after one target dies, and I would not agree, in the slightest, that single target fights are the most important...especially in PvP.

Danksta

How many fights are truly single target though?? And if Repentance was reworked you still have the issue of PotL only being able to be run by one person, so optimally you'd still just have one stamplar in group.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Danksta wrote: »

How many fights are truly single target though?? And if Repentance was reworked you still have the issue of PotL only being able to be run by one person, so optimally you'd still just have one stamplar in group.

What do you mean "being able to be run by one person". You ought to be able to get damage out of power of the light but of course the minor debuffs don't.

ccfeeling

Executioner passive is not really helpful for NB tank even ZOS had already updated on last patch . It's absolutely for DPS role lol
There is only one effective class active method to regain stam or mag ( If you are light armor tank ) is the Siphoning Strikes . 4270 after 20 sec with 920 stam cost , we could try to light weaving to get more juice from the trash bosses and mobs . End game boss ? it's possible we fail we die .

No passive could help us at all unless we picked Argonian unlike DK and Warden .

As a NB tank , basically we have no space to slot Assassin's Blade / Teleport Strike . We have to balance control , resistance , especially the HOT skills on both bars , rebuffs , boss and mobs control are busy enough , how we check the mobs hp 1 by 1 to cast Assassination skills .

Thanks ZOS you guys at least try once to help NB tank role but the direction was totally wrong . Combat team , you guys may need to work a little bit hard . At least you guys have to play a NB tank once .

I also have Sorc and DK tank for guild and open trial , the difference was too much , too much .

aeowulf

Unlike DK, warden and sorc, NB and templar cannot pick and choose when they get the resources back from these skills. They could be full and not need it, but that's their only window for the proc.

I do love the idea of repentance, yes it's unique and a very cool idea, especially if you style your templar on a priest. But it's not useful when grouped with multiple templars (but atleast you can get the other morph which is good) and it's not useful against single target. Any parses done on a skeleton will not use this so all practicing will be done without this skill. It needs some help.

Executioner passive is the same in that regard, it will not proc during a single target, be it against a boss or a parse skeleton. 'good' DPS rotations will not rely on a random chance - none of these 40k single target dummy parses will change. If it were changed to activate on a dodge, it will be useful for NB tanks in the real world, & it might proc a bit more during longer fights and less often on trash for all NB, although I tornado spam in trash, not execute until the last mob or two anyway. So again, it's not useful until the fight is almost over and you are being the most efficient you can by not targetting single mobs. The NB tank really needs some help, they have all but disappeared & blur would also be the best way of procing it for an NB tank. It would not affecting stamNB DPS much. magNB would probably the most affected, but they are also the class which gets the most use from leeching strikes, it's a lot tougher for a mob to move out of range of a staff light attack than a melee light attack.

I'm referencing PvE in my posts btw, i am not a very good PVP player^^ sometimes i wonder if i'm help the other teams more when i play!

DeadlyRecluse

aeowulf wrote: »

I do love the idea of repentance, yes it's unique and a very cool idea, especially if you style your templar on a priest. But it's not useful when grouped with multiple templars (but atleast you can get the other morph which is good) and it's not useful against single target. Any parses done on a skeleton will not use this so all practicing will be done without this skill. It needs some help.

Absolutely agreed that the issue with multiple templars in group is super frustrating, but you are still arguing from the standpoint that all skills need to be useful in a single target fight--and even against the dummy. That's simply not the case and has never been.

aeowulf wrote: »

I'm referencing PvE in my posts btw, i am not a very good PVP player^^ sometimes i wonder if i'm help the other teams more when i play!

Yep, I gathered as much and that's fine--but it's one of those situations where not every skill is for every context. Repentance, as currently implemented (and even more so if they let multiple people use it) is a powerful, unique skill for templars in PvP that rewards aggression with sustain. Changing it so that everyone enjoys similar target skeleton parse experiences would be....undesirable.

aeowulf

Actually i'm arguing it more from a NB tank perspective, I don't play my templar much (my partner plays healer/magplar and i daren't touch templar in case we start competing for sets - she would always get them ^^) but I see Repentence as a skill which shares some of the same 'problem' in that it's major effect is useless in a long single target fight. How many times can you expect it to be used on a trial boss?

Re not every skill should be used in every context - I agree as it is a good way to provide flavour. Except when it comes to resource regeneration. These 'on death' procs are entirely out of your control during some fights. Should every boss spawn adds just for you to proc a corpse? no. But most classes have no limitation on when they use their skills to regen resources, they can choose when, and where.These limitations should be changed to be a lot less limiting, and somehow usable during combat.

Every skill you cast hinges on resource management and when this is not in your hands it is not balanced. The ability to generate resources is fundamental to all classes. DK, warden and sorc don't even need to be in combat for their's to be used, and they can time the exact moment the fancy some resources.

I'm not sure how on earth a NB or templar tank could manage vBF, and DLC & should be accessible to all classes in all roles - I would love to know how many have successfully tanked it. Scored trials, I can see arguments for min/maxing characters, but not 4 man DLC.

The dummy is only an example target as it can be very easily seen to be not useful in the slightest, for either class.

aeowulf

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

...but neither of these skills are remotely near unused.

Actually, Executioner is very unused. It seems to be partially broken where it does not proc if your killing blow is an assasination tree skill. Only one person noticed and this was back in November. There is a bug report in the correct forum...

Illurian

An easier solution for Repentance would be to enable each corpse to be repented more than once. This requires no new, complicated coding, just a lift on the repentance cap per corpse.

aeowulf

Also a very sensible fix.

The other things that actually make the difference between these skills quite large are Repentence does not care who killed the mob or when it was killed. The corpse lingers after death to be claimed. Executioner requires 2 things Repentence doesn't, these are perfect timing & for you to get some assasination damage on the mob (but not the kiling blow otherwise it does not go off - might be a bug, or working as intended? unsure) The 'on death' penalty is already pretty steep even without these additional requirements.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@aeowulf stop acting like that passive is the only thing nbs have. You have leeching strikes. If you don't want to use it, that is your fault.

You really ought to be comparing leaching and repentance. As they are "active" skills not one that is "passive" and one that is "active".

If you want to go further, nightblades already have the best regen passive, " refreshing shadows", 15% on top of all other regen passives. This is better then the only resourse passive that temps have, a mere 4% cost reduction on all skills. But wait you have more, nbs get 20 ulti every time they drink a pot and then they still have the passive you so very malign.

Repentance is literally the only way Stam dps and tankplars have to get stam back. You (nbs) have at least 2 and a passive for faster regen. And you don't have to fight other nbs to use these ablities. I say fix repentance before anything gets touched on a nb.

aeowulf

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@aeowulf stop acting like that passive is the only thing nbs have. You have leeching strikes. If you don't want to use it, that is your fault.

Directly telling people how to act is personal and not constructive to any discussion. I remember my father telling me years ago if I ever had to resort to a personal attack in an argument i'd already lost. Fortunately this is a discussion, not an argument

Yes NB get leeching strikes this is correct, but did you know DK & warden also each get two skills? (if we're bringing the additional skills into consideration, which they should be) I guess every class should get comparable resource regen, be it via one source or two. The trick is to flavour the sources in unique and interesting ways. Please don't think i did not consider leeching/siphoning strikes before the initial post.

For example Leeching strikes is very comparable to netch, wrt. to resource return IF the full 20 second duration is reached. Netch starts immediately and can be refreshed before it ends without penalty. It also does not require 9 seconds to 'break even' and that's only if you are light attacking perfectly. Which in turns means unless you are using animation cancelling you are not doing anything else. Animation cancelling is the most advanced playstyle in ESO, and something that most people don't even know about until they have been playing a long time. Getting efficient use from a resource skill should not have animation cancelling as almost a requirement. The animation cancelling 'requirement' on relentless is perfect as that comes into trial efficiency territory. Executioner is not comparable to natures gift (@250/s) in the slightest. The sorc skill is particularly powerfull, able to generate around 4k resource per <on demand> cast but does have quite a limitiation in PvP and tanking due to the cast time as well as a significant 'other' resource cost. DK has quite a nice flavour overall too, but helping hands is very one sided towards stamina. 'Waiting' is not really a 'fast paced action thing, and NB in particular are not the class I'd consider the most combat patient, at least descriptively. So when both resource management skills require the NB to wait, i'm asking for a review from this perspective too, and for every role of the class to be taken into consideration.

I am also asking for a review of both Repentence & Executioner, not just one. I feel overall the way these are triggered is very restrictive especially Executioner. I felt it was unfair to ask for only one two be looked at as they both share a trigger feature which I consider somewhat uncommon in a fast paced game and neither are useable if your resources get low. Both skills are only usable when something dies, they do not care if you have a full or empty resource pool. Infact Leeching strikes is also not useable if your resources get low, by then it's too late. Repentence has a bigger issue re multiple stamplars in PUGs, and then there is also the issue that Executioner may or may not be bugged. Trouble with Repentence is it's very cool and fits well with a templar. Changes should certainly not affect the 'coolness' factor of this skill!

Re siphoning/leeching strikes - these still work for NB DPS just fine, both can be put in to a rotation and both will restore 100ish resource a second. On paper it's not much, but coupled with a set like VO I do not have resource issues as stamina DPS in a trial, even as an imperial. But the skill does not work well for NB tanks. Tanks do not have a rotation, they do not get to light attack when they want, they do get to block when the game mechanics dictate. The upfront cost does not help either. When a tank runs out of resources the whole group knows about it in a really bad way.

Re class/roles rather than the skills

Pre Morrowind NB tanks were uncommon, and now borderline extict... when was the last time you saw one in a vet PUG? I've not seen a single one since Morrowind. A huge part of this comes back to resource management. The general cp changes didn't kill them off, it was the removal on any effective way for a NB tank to return resources.

Templar tanks have all but gone too, these are past the 'endangered species' classification and are slowly moving to extinction. The cp crawl may save them. But at least they are not in quite as bad a place as DK healers.

It's these class/role combinations that need reviewing the most. The combinations that simply do not exist in any significant way outside of a 'no role needed' environment. These are ALL the class/role combinations with serious limitations in one way or another. By significant, I mean they run a chance to get kicked from a group before they've even been given a chance to prove themselves. It's horrifying to see the pop up and it's happening way more often than a year ago. Personally I like seeing how others try to play these rare combinations, it adds a flavour to the game and for once puts a different spin on a dungeon trawl. I will always give people a chance.

aeowulf

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

I say fix repentance before anything gets touched on a nb.

& I request 'review both'. It's not down to use to dictate to Zos what they do & don't do nor to to decide if something needs fixing. That would indicate it's broken. We don't even know if Executioner not returning resources if you kill a mob is a bug or as intended due to tooltip wording Repentence is not 'broken' as it behaves exactly as the tooltip is worded but I don't think it's as useful as it should be and I beleive the way it works in practice may not of been considered by the combat team at the time.

The best we can do is highlight things and hope a ZoS representative will answer or guide us.

You also forgot the 10% resource regen templars get. Infact all classes get resource regen of some description. And that templar 4% cost redux applies to ultimate too. I think you'll find most classes get ulti-help too.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

this was fun to write out, enjoy.

@aeowulf I remember my father telling me years ago if I ever had to resort to a personal attack in an argument i'd already lost.

first, i ain't your daddy.

second, there is nothing personal about telling you to "stop acting like that passive is the only thing nbs have. You have leeching strikes. If you don't want to use it, that is your fault." not s single word of that is an attack. it is a statement, this crusade you have to buff nbs comes from this thread, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4661581/#Comment_4661581, where you state " It's now by far the worst sustain skill in the game" this patently false and i showed you that repentence is far worse.

Re siphoning/leeching strikes - these still work for NB DPS just fine, both can be put in to a rotation and both will restore 100ish resource a second

@SodanTok did the math in that very thread showing you that this is plain false, to quote, "Lets do! Without any cost reduction, Leeching strikes costs 920 stamina and restores 4270 stamina after 20s. That is 3350 stamina every 20 sec, making it 167/s gain. So even without light attacks, it is already better at stamina return that Netch"

But the skill does not work well for NB tanks.

how does it not? you say "Tanks do not have a rotation" this is absurd as well, they have to keep taunt up. i know as a tank i am never not doing something, like they have to buff their team with whatever, they have to keep their resources up. leeching strikes fit perfectly into that last one. if you can't keep a constant flow of stamina with leeching as a tank, that sounds like a learn to play problem, unlike a tankplar that depends on not having a stamplar in the group AND dead bodys.

You also forgot the 10% resource regen templars get. Infact all classes get resource regen of some description. And that templar 4% cost redux applies to ultimate too. I think you'll find most classes get ulti-help too.

EDIT: you fix your statements in the next post. thanks.

i did not forget, you don't know what you are talking about. i specifically stated "on top of all other regen passives", "that "10%" is from repentance. a skill that HAS to be on your bar to get the regen, if it is on your back bar or not on your bar, you get nothing. that "10%" is also a minor buff called Minor Intellect for magic or Minor Endurance for stam. a minor buff that can also be applied to a nb by an outside source for minor intellect, usually a sorc using empowered ward or a warden using Enchanted Growth or from Relentless Focus for the minor endurace. the nb is the ONLY class that as a 15% regen passive to all, for free. you have to do nothing to get it. the closest 2 passives are "Daedric Protection" (20% stam regen) in the "Daedric Summoning" skill line for a sorc and "Flourish" (12% regen for Magicka and Stamina) for the warden, from the "Animal Companions" skill line, even then they both have to slot something from that line to get it. and i will mention dks "regen" passive, lol, it is called "Elder Dragon" and Increases your Health Recovery by 5% for each Draconic Power ability slotted. worthless. sorcs also have "Capacitor", which is just 10% magic regen.

And that templar 4% cost redux applies to ultimate

this is 10 ulti on a 250 ulti. you (nbs) get 20 ulti every 45 second from pots. does this seem even? sorcs get 15% cost reduction on ultis, 37 ulti on a 250 ulti. this is fine though, they do not have a passive like NB "Transfer", Temps "prism", dks "Mountain's Blessing" or wardens "Savage Beast" which all, if used on cooldown, give at most 30 extra ulti a minute.

lastly, want to reiterate, have you ever been kicked from a group from using your passive? i understand that it might be bugged, but you still can use it sometimes. i have been kicked from a group becuase the other stamplar did not want to share. this is far more serious then a buggy passive.

aeowulf

btw, I do consider templar resource management to be worse than NB. I consider both significantly worse (when the role of nb tank is considered) that the other three classes. That does not mean only templar should be reviewed.

The templar cost regen is not a passive, so costs a 'skill slot', the cost redux is only 4%, which when combined with the 10% regen marks it as sub par compared to the 15% across the board regen a NB gets. Minor magicka steal is not a templar exclusive thing, any class has access to it buy equipping a destro staff. Templar should probably have exclusive access to minor magicka & stamina steal. Yet even with these comments, both templar (all) & NB (particularly tank) pale in comparison to the other three classes in the area of resource management.

aeowulf

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

this was fun to write out, enjoy.

@aeowulf I remember my father telling me years ago if I ever had to resort to a personal attack in an argument i'd already lost.

first, i ain't your daddy.

I'm kinda glad you're aint my daddy and yes i am enjoying chatting about this with you.

Regarding most of the rest, yes, it's called education. I took the information you and other people gave me a while back and now consider some of the things posted in that old thread outdated/incorrect, especially leeching being the worst resource skill in the game. I could argue it still is because 'the meat' of repentence literally does nothing without a corpse, but that's just semantics and it actually has the regen portion. The short version is I have checked out repentence, on my templar, and now agree with you. Repentence is not good in it's current form. I then took it a step further and checked out everything else, to try to be more acurate with my next post, and it turns out but Executioner is worse, skill to skill at least. You are responsible for this thread in many ways :P

Comparing classes as a whole, stamplar IS worse off than NB. Magplar I didn't examine in depth but they share minor magicka steal with destro staff (ie potentially everyone) so it's not awesome.

I consider you as having taught me about the state stamplar/tank templar is in wrt. resource management. I have you and others to thank for that. I am now taking that education and have posted about exactly what you educated me about. Repentence. I am also posting about another skill that behaves in a similar fashion, which is Executioner. Please note all information in this thread is of todays <right this second> understanding, whereas all your links above are old. This thread is not about leeching strikes.

aeowulf

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

lastly, want to reiterate, have you ever been kicked from a group from using your passive? i understand that it might be bugged, but you still can use it sometimes. i have been kicked from a group becuase the other stamplar did not want to share. this is far more serious then a buggy passive.

Are you 100% sure it was due to Repentence? I have actually been kicked from a group because I was not/did not speak Italian...

There are many things that I feel need some help in this game, every class/role combination you do not see in finder. Stamplar are heading this way too, they are rare, could easily be down to fear of this. happening. Infact i see way more ranged DPS than melee these days. Finder itself should also get some love, i hate queueing for 45 mins as a dps, to only kill the last mob of a pledge (Selenes if i remember correctly), complete it, queue again AND HAVE THE SAME THING HAPPEN!!!! I didn't complete the full pledge that day

and how can '@Aeowulf stop acting' not be considered not directly telling someone how to/not to behave

and please, before you mention 'learn to play' issue again, please ensure it is actually an L2P issue. I am taking my data from class/role combinations I have seen played over the last 6 months, and the polls someone did a little while back. Only ZoS can get the exact answer, but I would really love to know how many NB tanks have completed vBF with a DK healer and 2 stamplars. If 2% plays a certain class/role combination is that an L2P issue for 33% of people or does that class/role combination need looking at quite badly?

If you still think it's L2P, then maybe you can help me and many others L2P? I'll log on my DK healer, don't worry i'm well over cp cap and will be for at least the next few years. I hope under your guidance I can join an end game trial guild and replace a Templar

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

this crusade you have to buff nbs comes from this thread, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4661581/#Comment_4661581,

Actually that's one of the first incorrect thing you have posted. It does not stem from that at all, and I do not seek to buff NB in the slightest. NB DPS certainly don't need it, although their rotation is certainly the toughest and least forgiving of all. In fact i'm not sure I agree with the upcoming change to relentless, it's going to make me lazier, but otherwise works with a similar mechanic to the current siphoning morphs. I'm wondering the reason, and whether or not that because it relies so heavily on animation cancelling, that as a feature AC may be destined for a removal. It's also a big contributor to the 'experienced vs new player' gap.

If anything, it goes back to the change to siphoning strikes with Morrowind. Whilst it was too good to exist in a post-morrowind world the changes were harsh. NB DPS roles could adapt to this, and that line of skill works perfectly fine for NB DPS. NB DPS continued to stay very viable, albeit with a little practice. Adapting to the change was not the case for NB tanks, this can be very clearly seen with dungeon finder. Look at the class polls from a while back, you will see massive trends in some combinations.

My 'crusade' as you put it is now to look at every under-represented class/role combination & try to figure out & highlight issues ONCE I have a solid understand of why, and that's with an assumption it's down to something lacking on class/role combination as opposed to just everyone's preference to just not play that combo. Although 'crusade' is somewhat of a strong word


Your education in the previous thread was very useful, consider this thread dedicated to thanking you.