Zos's statement about why it can t balance PvP and pve separately.

Rjizzle09

I see all of these comments about how to fix the game and am shaking my head. Combat was DESTROYED in morrowind because sustain in PvP had just gotten out of hand. Proc sets ruined a lot of things in PvP because of the fact that they were allowed to be taken in alliance zones. This should have never happened . Pv p and PvP should honestly never cross each other unless you can do it correctly.

Since they have proven they can't they literally refuse to balance PvP and PvP separately. You wanna know why? Get out your lol buttons. I forget which dev it was, but he literally said balancing the two separately would be TOO HARD. After hearing that I can see why we have so many lazy fixes (mag dks flame lash getting a cooldown).

Zos needs to just get up and reverse all of this morrowind mess. Bring back sustain so combat is cool again. We used to have every class competing for spots but now it's mag blade or stam setups or gtfo. They just need to finally separate PvP and pve and a lot of the issues will be fixed. You can NEVER balance this game as long as you keep approaching things so lazily with comments such as "it's too hard". That's honestly just ridiculous.

Mic1007

#BringBackPatch1.5

Nestor

Actually, if they would just go ahead and separate PvP and PvE skills, then they could balance one without messing up the other. Because, as it stands now, it probably is too hard to make both sides happy. Which is why one side gets upset with each balance change. OK, both sides get upset, but that is because they try to please both sides.

They can even keep the same skill names and intended effects, but the scale and power and costs can be completely different. You enter Cyrodiil, you get different skill sets or loadouts, you come back to the real world, you get your PvE skills and loadouts.

ADarklore

I don't know WHY they say it's "too hard" because currently they already add 'changes' to various things once you enter Cyrodiil though Battle Spirit. You have changes to CP, changes to healing, etc... so why can't they do the same thing with each skill set?!?

However, not only did they say it was 'too hard' they also previously said that they, "wanted all skills to play exactly the same across PvE/PvP" and yet... they still make various changes through Battle Spirit anyway. So much for that argument.

BlazingDynamo

Why does battle spirit exist if they don't use it?

I'm no expert but it seems to me that would be the best solution to seperate PvE and PvP balances without destroying crucial skills. Cause lets be honest, nothing in this game has ever been nerfed because the PvE community complained about a certain skill being too OP. Without that said, even the skills that get complained about on the PvE side of things because they're useless don't get changed.

#MakeBarrierGreatAgain

radiostar

Thought that's what BS is for.

LadyLavina

No, anonymous ZOS developer. It's not "Too Hard". Don't defend your higher-ups who don't wanna spend the man hours on it because they'd rather bilk us for every last cent they can.

Yeah it probably IS hard, but not beyond the reach of a billion dollar entity with a significant team size.

Moloch1514

I remember that ESO Live episode. It was baffling but the answer really is that it is too hard and too time consuming.

xaraan

The bad thing is, they have battle spirit in the game, it's a thing that already exists - adding a few more variables to that (without even making them complicated) could go a long way.

ol_BANK_lo

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

I see all of these comments about how to fix the game and am shaking my head. Combat was DESTROYED in morrowind because sustain in PvP had just gotten out of hand. Proc sets ruined a lot of things in PvP because of the fact that they were allowed to be taken in alliance zones. This should have never happened . Pv p and PvP should honestly never cross each other unless you can do it correctly.

Since they have proven they can't they literally refuse to balance PvP and PvP separately. You wanna know why? Get out your lol buttons. I forget which dev it was, but he literally said balancing the two separately would be TOO HARD. After hearing that I can see why we have so many lazy fixes (mag dks flame lash getting a cooldown).

Zos needs to just get up and reverse all of this morrowind mess. Bring back sustain so combat is cool again. We used to have every class competing for spots but now it's mag blade or stam setups or gtfo. They just need to finally separate PvP and pve and a lot of the issues will be fixed. You can NEVER balance this game as long as you keep approaching things so lazily with comments such as "it's too hard". That's honestly just ridiculous.

In theory, I have wanted to separate the two for a long time. But using "lol" and making fun of "too hard" is immature and childish. You are not a dev, don't work there, have no idea what their thought process is as it pertains to this. I do believe that it is nearly impossible to balance. You can't ever make both sides happy. But if you are going to post, grow up first.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

@Rjizzle09 this could had easily be prevented if we had PvP sets with pvp only specific bonuses...why? cuz it would be much more beneficial to use them instead of pve ones mostly...but what happened it was total nerf of proc sets+ adding the combat spirit+ the destruction of sustain...I have no issue with the current sustain...I have an issue with how the items and combat spirit was handled.

LadyLavina

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

it is nearly impossible to balance. You can't ever make both sides happy. But if you are going to post, grow up first.

@BANK_IT_HERE

Drakkdjinn

Remove CP from PvP (or add a PvP-only/specific tree) and reverse previous balance changes implemented to compensate for CP power creep. Voila PvE and PvP are balanced separately and everyone gets a natural base sustain boost.

LadyLavina

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Remove CP from PvP (or add a PvP-only/specific tree) and reverse previous balance changes implemented to compensate for CP power creep. Voila PvE and PvP are balanced separately and everyone gets a natural base sustain boost.

I used to hate this idea but it would require one to posses more actual skill rather than simply relying on ones accumulated cp.

+1

Edziu

Moloch1514 wrote: »

I remember that ESO Live episode. It was baffling but the answer really is that it is too hard and too time consuming.

hahaha yeah
to ZOS then how they did this??


that was probably done by other ZOS team which doesnt exist and is replaced by nonexperienced lazy greedy leechers as this is TO HARD to make rest skills same way with balance to not screw them in one game mode because in another its to OP

Ydrisselle

Nestor wrote: »

Actually, if they would just go ahead and separate PvP and PvE skills, then they could balance one without messing up the other. Because, as it stands now, it probably is too hard to make both sides happy. Which is why one side gets upset with each balance change. OK, both sides get upset, but that is because they try to please both sides.

They can even keep the same skill names and intended effects, but the scale and power and costs can be completely different. You enter Cyrodiil, you get different skill sets or loadouts, you come back to the real world, you get your PvE skills and loadouts.

So your suggestion is that ESO should have 5 classes for PvE and 5 classes for PvP with different skillsets, maybe even different names (like templar/dragon knight/nightblade/sorcerer/warden for PvE and crusader/arcane warrior/shadow fighter/ nether wizard/forest guardian for PvP or vice versa). That means there would be essentially 2 different games under one name. I definitely can see why would it be hard to keep up that status quo and why would it be very confusing for somebody who only casually tries him/herself in PvP.

NewBlacksmurf

Edziu wrote: »

Moloch1514 wrote: »

I remember that ESO Live episode. It was baffling but the answer really is that it is too hard and too time consuming.

hahaha yeah
to ZOS then how they did this??


that was probably done by other ZOS team which doesnt exist and is replaced by nonexperienced lazy greedy leechers as this is TO HARD to make rest skills same way with balance to not screw them in one game mode because in another its to OP

I recall the ESO Live the OP is referring to but I don’t think they actually said too hard. They said they didn’t want to put players in a position to be required to learn two different sets of skills.

Then you see the above as well as looking at builds......uuhhmmm..... @ZOS_RichLambert you guys have nerfed skills to be less useful in either PvP or PvE so why not go all in. Have the skills flip the tool tip and apply effects differently in one vs the other.

Sevalaricgirl

BANK_IT_HERE wrote: »

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

I see all of these comments about how to fix the game and am shaking my head. Combat was DESTROYED in morrowind because sustain in PvP had just gotten out of hand. Proc sets ruined a lot of things in PvP because of the fact that they were allowed to be taken in alliance zones. This should have never happened . Pv p and PvP should honestly never cross each other unless you can do it correctly.

Since they have proven they can't they literally refuse to balance PvP and PvP separately. You wanna know why? Get out your lol buttons. I forget which dev it was, but he literally said balancing the two separately would be TOO HARD. After hearing that I can see why we have so many lazy fixes (mag dks flame lash getting a cooldown).

Zos needs to just get up and reverse all of this morrowind mess. Bring back sustain so combat is cool again. We used to have every class competing for spots but now it's mag blade or stam setups or gtfo. They just need to finally separate PvP and pve and a lot of the issues will be fixed. You can NEVER balance this game as long as you keep approaching things so lazily with comments such as "it's too hard". That's honestly just ridiculous.

In theory, I have wanted to separate the two for a long time. But using "lol" and making fun of "too hard" is immature and childish. You are not a dev, don't work there, have no idea what their thought process is as it pertains to this. I do believe that it is nearly impossible to balance. You can't ever make both sides happy. But if you are going to post, grow up first.

Disagree. They can make both sides happy by separating the skill sets. One set for PvE and one set for PvP. Balance each separately. PvE is much easier to balance. Once that is done, just leave it be for PvE and strictly focus on balancing PvP.. It is not too hard. It is time consuming.

KingYogi415

I’m still mad about bloodthirst not being usable.

Heavy attack meta is garbage.

Nestor

Ydrisselle wrote: »

So your suggestion is that ESO should have 5 classes for PvE and 5 classes for PvP with different skillsets, maybe even different names (like templar/dragon knight/nightblade/sorcerer/warden for PvE and crusader/arcane warrior/shadow fighter/ nether wizard/forest guardian for PvP or vice versa). That means there would be essentially 2 different games under one name. I definitely can see why would it be hard to keep up that status quo and why would it be very confusing for somebody who only casually tries him/herself in PvP.

@Ydrisselle

Two different skill sets. Classes can be the same, with obviously the different skill sets. So, for example, we can still have a Flame Whip, just, for example, in PvP, it has the cool down, but in PvP it does not. They do not have to be dramatically different skills or skill outcomes for lack of a better word.

Thing is, people use different skill rotations in PvP and Pve, and most of them use different gear sets too. So, we already have huge differences in a PvP loadout and a PvE loadout. This is nothing new.

LadyLavina

Nestor wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

So your suggestion is that ESO should have 5 classes for PvE and 5 classes for PvP with different skillsets, maybe even different names (like templar/dragon knight/nightblade/sorcerer/warden for PvE and crusader/arcane warrior/shadow fighter/ nether wizard/forest guardian for PvP or vice versa). That means there would be essentially 2 different games under one name. I definitely can see why would it be hard to keep up that status quo and why would it be very confusing for somebody who only casually tries him/herself in PvP.

@Ydrisselle

Two different skill sets. Classes can be the same, with obviously the different skill sets. So, for example, we can still have a Flame Whip, just, for example, in PvP, it has the cool down, but in PvP it does not. They do not have to be dramatically different skills or skill outcomes for lack of a better word.

Thing is, people use different skill rotations in PvP and Pve, and most of them use different gear sets too. So, we already have huge differences in a PvP loadout and a PvE loadout. This is nothing new.

@Nestor is Bestor

Ydrisselle

Nestor wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

So your suggestion is that ESO should have 5 classes for PvE and 5 classes for PvP with different skillsets, maybe even different names (like templar/dragon knight/nightblade/sorcerer/warden for PvE and crusader/arcane warrior/shadow fighter/ nether wizard/forest guardian for PvP or vice versa). That means there would be essentially 2 different games under one name. I definitely can see why would it be hard to keep up that status quo and why would it be very confusing for somebody who only casually tries him/herself in PvP.

@Ydrisselle

Two different skill sets. Classes can be the same, with obviously the different skill sets. So, for example, we can still have a Flame Whip, just, for example, in PvP, it has the cool down, but in PvP it does not. They do not have to be dramatically different skills or skill outcomes for lack of a better word.

Thing is, people use different skill rotations in PvP and Pve, and most of them use different gear sets too. So, we already have huge differences in a PvP loadout and a PvE loadout. This is nothing new.

@Nestor

I'm used this methodology on purpose. I've seen such debates for different MMOs, and every time the devs reasoning was "what you want us to do is essentially ship two different games under one banner". Yeah, in most cases they compromised with minor adjustments like "this spell stuns mobs for longer than players", and for some players it's still hard to understand why are their skills different if they change target... Of course the best case for the devs would be to ship a pure PvE game, or a pure PvP game - however the latter aren't really self-sustaining in the current market (for example: Darkfall and its continuous relaunches).

Nestor

A skill is nothing more than this: For this cost, this happens, and these things modify it. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not require a new game or game system to implement.

NewBlacksmurf

Nestor wrote: »

A skill is nothing more than this: For this cost, this happens, and these things modify it. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not require a new game or game system to implement.

Yes but the last part....no
It would require a new system if the intent is for behavior, effects, etc to change depending upon environment.

There would need to be something that triggers in the game that isn’t triggering now. Maybe not a system but a notable change.

Cadbury

I always thought their intention was to keep PvE/P together. Wasn't that a selling point back then?

Ydrisselle

Nestor wrote: »

A skill is nothing more than this: For this cost, this happens, and these things modify it. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not require a new game or game system to implement.

That's the current system in the game

Nestor

Exactly, change the skills for each half the game. The rest of the game itself can stay as it is now

TequilaFire

I wish they would balance the modes separately if only to hear what PvE players would blame their nerfs on then.

SydneyGrey

Can't they just make it so that skills affect other players differently than they affect NPCs?

It just seems doable to me. Then we won't have these unending, constant "nerf this - nerf that" threads that would destroy those skills for PvE.

Ydrisselle

Nestor wrote: »

Exactly, change the skills for each half the game. The rest of the game itself can stay as it is now

That means a new system: "determine if it's PvP or not". It's easy since PvP is in separated zones... however in those zones there are still PvE goals and quests. Plus it doesn't help with what should happen during duels (like in Alik'r).

Nestor

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Yes but the last part....no
It would require a new system if the intent is for behavior, effects, etc to change depending upon environment.

There would need to be something that triggers in the game that isn’t triggering now. Maybe not a system but a notable change.

Its not an environment, its a zone. Battle Spirit was already mentioned, that is just one way to do this, there are many others. It does not have to change the underlying game. We already have PvP skills that are only useful in PvP, but they run on the same game system we have now.

Now, if someone was standing in freezing water and they get a snare for 60 seconds, that is environmental. But, heck, that can be done in the existing game system. The last festival showed us that.