Who was the first Vampire in TES?

kongkim

So who was the first. Lamae Bal or Lord Harkon?
Can't seem to fint out. Some lore say one and other lore say the other?

Oakmontowls_ESO

Well Lord Harkon can't be the first since it was his wife and daughter first.

MAEK

It's Lamae Bal. I've never heard of Harkon being the first though.

ANGEL_BtVS

According to the quest line to become a vampire in ESO, it's Lamae Bal. She was created by Molag Bal. But I'm no lore expert so will let others chime in.

ThePrinceOfBargains

Harkon is definitely not the first. Technically, he’s not even the first of his bloodline, since Serana and Valerica became vampires first.

JD2013

Lamae Bal. A Nedic tribeswoman defiled and made into the first vampire by Molag Bal.

dsalter

technically molag bal is.

kongkim

Ok i found a date in TES lore on Lord Harkon (4E 201)
But is there a date on Lamae Bal ?

ANGEL_BtVS

kongkim wrote: »

Ok i found a date in TES lore on Lord Harkon (4E 201)
But is there a date on Lamae Bal ?

Before that.

Skeletalkk

Considering Lamae is Nedic, it would have been sometime in the First Era, I'm assuming very early.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lamae_Beolfag

Oakmontowls_ESO

kongkim wrote: »

Ok i found a date in TES lore on Lord Harkon (4E 201)
But is there a date on Lamae Bal ?

She's a Nede and they disappeared before the second era.

Mic1007

Lamae is the first from her branch, as she was cursed by Molag Bal herself. Not sure if she was the first ever Vampire, though.

olsborg

According to a wiki.

Most vampires trace their lineage to a distant common ancestor, an unwilling Nedic virgin called Lamae Beolfag(commonly referred to as Bloodmatron Lamae, Lamae Bal and Blood-matron), who was defiled by Bal. With her, he spawned the race of monsters known as vampires, who then set upon nomads, spreading his corruption further. Other species of vampires are said to be the result of other pacts and bargains with Molag Bal, who promises immortality and power, but gives the afflicted "an eternity of damnation."

The Tribunal Temple's doctrine teaches a different version of the origin of vampires, but still sees Bal as their progenitor. In the legend, Molag Bal (called the "Father of Monsters") spawned the first vampire upon the corpse of a defeated foe, whose nature varies by account. In some versions, the foe is a Daedra Lord, in others a Temple Saint or a powerful beast. It is noted that such legend only appears in Morrowind's lore.

DedEmbryonicCell19

'"The first vampire came from Molag Bal. She... was not a willing subject. But she was still the first." — Serana, Vampire Lord of the Volkihar clan

The Opusculus Lamae Bal ta Mezzamortie tells of how the curse of vampirism came about, owing its creation to the Daedric Prince Molag Bal. The tale goes that Molag Bal disliked Arkay, an Aedra who showed great pride in his sphere of influence, the cycle of life and death. Molag Bal traveled to Tamriel (still newly-formed at the time), where he savagely *** the Nedic woman Lamae Beolfag and then departed Nirn. Lamae was found and nursed by nomads, but death eventually overtook her. On the night of her cremation, she rose again and brutally murdered the nomads. Dubbed a Daughter of Coldharbour‎, she then created more vampires, spreading the curse across Tamriel and making a mockery of Arkay's cycles.

In actuality, Lamae did not die at all but was rapidly healing from her wounds which frightened the local nedes. In fear of the disease that was spreading through Lamae, they tried to cremate her but she awoke and slaughtered them all. Once she came to her senses she was horrified of what she had done and what she had become. She beseeched Arkay only for him to forsake her. In retaliation, she began spreading vampirism to his followers. Since then, many mortals have made pacts with Molag Bal to become vampires, given rise to new bloodlines of vampires.'

From UESP Lore:Vampire ..

casparian

kongkim wrote: »

Ok i found a date in TES lore on Lord Harkon (4E 201)
But is there a date on Lamae Bal ?

4E 201 is the year TESV: Skyrim begins. Harkon became a vampire centuries before that.

Dating Harkon's conversion hinges on dating Serana's, which in turn hinges on getting both her ignorance and her knowledge to make sense: she does not know that there is an Empire in Cyrodiil, but she does know about the existence (and prestige) of the College of Winterhold. In TESV, Serana says that in her day, the College of Winterhold was the place to go to learn about anything magical, suggesting the College had been around for a decently long time when she was last awake. According to legend, the College was founded by Shalidor in the First Era. But she is also surprised by the existence of an empire in Cyrodiil. This means either that Serana is from the very beginning of the First Era before Alessia founded the empire, from the ~400 year period late in the First Era between the Alessian and Reman Empires, or from the Interregnum in the Second Era (i.e., the time period of ESO, when there is no Empire in Cyrodiil). But if she is from the early First Era, then the College would likely not have had time to gain the reputation it apparently had in Serana's day. Therefore, it is likely that she is from the Interregnum, just like the Vestige is, or the late first Era. But Lamae Bal lived much earlier than either of those time periods, since she was a Nede living in Skyrim, and there were no recognizable Nedic people groups left outside of Hammerfell by the early centuries of the First Era.

That said, it's possible to doubt that Shalidor actually did found the College of Winterhold. Perhaps that is just one of the many great feats erroneously attributed to him. If this is true, then it might be even older, allowing us to date Serana earlier than the founding of the first Empire -- and thus potentially older than Lamae Bal.

Opusculus Lamae Bal ta Mezzamortie says that Lamae Bal is the one "from which came the vampires", which has suggested to many that she was the first vampire. But it's important to note that that book itself says it is a "translation". When that translation says "the vampires", it might be translating a word which in its original language only refers to a specific clan or bloodline of vampires. So this book isn't decisive evidence one way or the other.

In short, while I don't believe there is a conclusive way to demonstrate who was the first vampire, it's most likely that Lamae Bal was at least earlier than Harkon.

Edit: Harkon also claims, at some point in the Dawnguard questline, to have "the wisdom of a dozen lifetimes". He's presumably not trying to be terribly precise, but a dozen lifetimes is ~850 years, give or take a few decades. That would place his birth almost immediately after ESO is set.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

There's a dev Q/A on the Imperial City Library stating Serana was stuffed in her crypt in the Second Era if that helps.

arpadsweb16_ESO

Mic1007 wrote: »

Lamae is the first from her branch, as she was cursed by Molag Bal herself. Not sure if she was the first ever Vampire, though.

Lamae spawned several branches.

Froil

Lamae Beolfag was the first vampire according to the lore.

Seperatist

Seems Lamae was the first and Serana just from interregnum, that’s why she didn’t knew much about empires.

ghastley

Where is the idea that Valerica and Serana were vampires before Harkon coming from? There seems to be evidence that vampires do not breed, implying that Harkon and Valerica were not vampires before the conception of Serana, but none on the sequence of their "conversion". The fact that the child vampire Babette stays the same age suggests that they all do that, so their apparent ages should provide a clue to the sequence. Harkon is not noticeably older-looking, so I wouldn't think he was turned later.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

@ghastley We actually know they CAN breed; Oblivion spoilers ahead:

The Arena Champion in ESIV Oblivion is the son of a vampire, and his father was a vampire when he was conceived

Mind, I doubt they were turned before Serana was born regardless.

VaranisArano

ghastley wrote: »

Where is the idea that Valerica and Serana were vampires before Harkon coming from? There seems to be evidence that vampires do not breed, implying that Harkon and Valerica were not vampires before the conception of Serana, but none on the sequence of their "conversion". The fact that the child vampire Babette stays the same age suggests that they all do that, so their apparent ages should provide a clue to the sequence. Harkon is not noticeably older-looking, so I wouldn't think he was turned later.

Well, looking back at the dialogue in Dawnguard, the chronology is interesting.

From Harkon, we hear: "In an age long forgotten to history, I ruled as a mighty king. My domain was vast, my riches endless and my power infinite. And yet, as my mortal life neared an end, I faced a seemingly invincible enemy -- my own mortality. I pledged myself to Molag Bal, and in his name I sacrificed a thousand innocents. In reward, he gave everlasting life to myself, my wife and my daughter. And so I have defeated mortality itself."

From Serana, we hear: "How did you actually become a vampire, then?" .... "The ceremony was... degrading. Let's not revisit that. But we all took part in it. Not really wholesome family activity, but I guess it's something you do when you give yourselves to a daedric lord."

From Valerica we hear: "Like myself, Serana was a human once. We were devout followers of Lord Molag Bal. Tradition dictates the females be offered to Molag Bal on his summoning day. Few survive the ordeal. Those that do emerge as a pure-blooded vampire. We call such confluences the "Daughters of Coldharbour.""

So its a little unclear as to whether they all became vampires together after Harkon sacrifices a bunch of people, or whether Serana and Valerica become Daughters of Coldharbor in their ceremony and Harkon becomes a pure-blooded Vampire Lord from his own bargain. Certainly, Harkon is not the same as Serana and Valerica, since his blood doesn't work for the Tyranny of the Sun.

ghastley

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

@ghastley We actually know they CAN breed; Oblivion spoilers ahead:

The Arena Champion in ESIV Oblivion is the son of a vampire, and his father was a vampire when he was conceived

Mind, I doubt they were turned before Serana was born regardless.

Yes, but the order of conception and turning is unclear there. We know which order the son believes, but have no proof of it. Evidence is inconclusive in that case.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Well, looking back at the dialogue in Dawnguard, the chronology is interesting.

From Harkon, we hear: "In an age long forgotten to history, I ruled as a mighty king. My domain was vast, my riches endless and my power infinite. And yet, as my mortal life neared an end, I faced a seemingly invincible enemy -- my own mortality. I pledged myself to Molag Bal, and in his name I sacrificed a thousand innocents. In reward, he gave everlasting life to myself, my wife and my daughter. And so I have defeated mortality itself."

From Serana, we hear: "How did you actually become a vampire, then?" .... "The ceremony was... degrading. Let's not revisit that. But we all took part in it. Not really wholesome family activity, but I guess it's something you do when you give yourselves to a daedric lord."

From Valerica we hear: "Like myself, Serana was a human once. We were devout followers of Lord Molag Bal. Tradition dictates the females be offered to Molag Bal on his summoning day. Few survive the ordeal. Those that do emerge as a pure-blooded vampire. We call such confluences the "Daughters of Coldharbour.""

So its a little unclear as to whether they all became vampires together after Harkon sacrifices a bunch of people, or whether Serana and Valerica become Daughters of Coldharbor in their ceremony and Harkon becomes a pure-blooded Vampire Lord from his own bargain. Certainly, Harkon is not the same as Serana and Valerica, since his blood doesn't work for the Tyranny of the Sun.

Note that Serana and Valerica concur on the detail, and Harkon is the self-centered villain of the piece, who may well exaggerate his own status. And that part about his life nearing an end doesn't fit with observation, either. He's not even greying at the temples.

Yes, he probably did bribe Molag Bal with a slaughter-fest, but the other two got their own deals, which I suspect were less than willing, as Molag Bal prefers it that way. Note the phrasing "be offered to ..." rather than "offer themselves to ..." in what Valerica tells you.

Rickter

casparian wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

Ok i found a date in TES lore on Lord Harkon (4E 201)
But is there a date on Lamae Bal ?

4E 201 is the year TESV: Skyrim begins. Harkon became a vampire centuries before that.

Dating Harkon's conversion hinges on dating Serana's, which in turn hinges on getting both her ignorance and her knowledge to make sense: she does not know that there is an Empire in Cyrodiil, but she does know about the existence (and prestige) of the College of Winterhold. In TESV, Serana says that in her day, the College of Winterhold was the place to go to learn about anything magical, suggesting the College had been around for a decently long time when she was last awake. According to legend, the College was founded by Shalidor in the First Era. But she is also surprised by the existence of an empire in Cyrodiil. This means either that Serana is from the very beginning of the First Era before Alessia founded the empire, from the ~400 year period late in the First Era between the Alessian and Reman Empires, or from the Interregnum in the Second Era (i.e., the time period of ESO, when there is no Empire in Cyrodiil). But if she is from the early First Era, then the College would likely not have had time to gain the reputation it apparently had in Serana's day. Therefore, it is likely that she is from the Interregnum, just like the Vestige is, or the late first Era. But Lamae Bal lived much earlier than either of those time periods, since she was a Nede living in Skyrim, and there were no recognizable Nedic people groups left outside of Hammerfell by the early centuries of the First Era.

That said, it's possible to doubt that Shalidor actually did found the College of Winterhold. Perhaps that is just one of the many great feats erroneously attributed to him. If this is true, then it might be even older, allowing us to date Serana earlier than the founding of the first Empire -- and thus potentially older than Lamae Bal.

Opusculus Lamae Bal ta Mezzamortie says that Lamae Bal is the one "from which came the vampires", which has suggested to many that she was the first vampire. But it's important to note that that book itself says it is a "translation". When that translation says "the vampires", it might be translating a word which in its original language only refers to a specific clan or bloodline of vampires. So this book isn't decisive evidence one way or the other.

In short, while I don't believe there is a conclusive way to demonstrate who was the first vampire, it's most likely that Lamae Bal was at least earlier than Harkon.

Edit: Harkon also claims, at some point in the Dawnguard questline, to have "the wisdom of a dozen lifetimes". He's presumably not trying to be terribly precise, but a dozen lifetimes is ~850 years, give or take a few decades. That would place his birth almost immediately after ESO is set.

/thread

WhiteCoatSyndrome

ghastley wrote: »

Yes, but the order of conception and turning is unclear there. We know which order the son believes, but have no proof of it. Evidence is inconclusive in that case.

On the contrary, it's very clear. Source:

Entry 6: Betrayal! Foul and loathsome harlot! How dare Luktuv question my motives, question the love I have for my own unborn child! When she learned the truth, that I, the Lord Lovidicus, am no longer human, that I have walked Tamriel as a vampire for the past two hundred years, how quickly she judged me!

Unless you want to argue that Orc gestation lasts over two hundred years, he was definitely a vampire before he sired Agronak.