Is that good idea? [Bot problem resolving]

Getern

I am just recently wondering. There is a few, definitely more than one, tho I dont really know how many. The forum modders, what they basically do is checking out if your comment is salty enough to warn you or they simply remove it. Same time they don't really care about feedback what gives my idea even more sense.

How about making one of those guys dedicated Bot hunter? Its just forum here, not a big deal. What is a big deal tho is the state of the game. I dont really mind sacrifacing one forum modder to make Tamriel zones free from Bots, do you? I think that just one is enough, all he had to do is to head to the most bot occupied zones and simply permaban obvious cheaters, simple as that. Same time it either removes cheater permamently or makes him buy the game again. What then? Simple, ban him again. Profit.

I mean this is just pure logic. Maybe there is something wrong with me, maybe ppl always vote against me, maybe they are trolling, maybe it because of general stupidity. Although I cant really come up with a single reason why shouldn't they do that. We are basically spliting barely important resources for something actually relevant.

Can I have some Dev/Mod response on this?

DoctorESO

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Elsonso

I have previously said that if the forum mods were in charge of taking care of botting, cheating, and exploiting in the game, these problems would not exist. They are efficient, attentive, and they mean business. I am glad they are around. I am not just saying that in attempt to bank points with them, either. (Although, if it isn't too much to trouble...)

I would rather have them in the forum, though.

Getern

DoctorESO wrote: »

Well, let's assume you pay someone $36,000 per year to be a bot hunter. That comes out to 5.04 million crowns per year. Does the community think it's worth 5.04 million crowns per year?

Wtf?

This is not about hiring new staff. What I propose is to move one modder from forums to do GM's work in game. There is literally no more expenses. That assumed $36k is payed anyway.

lordrichter wrote: »

I have previously said that if the forum mods were in charge of taking care of botting, cheating, and exploiting in the game, these problems would not exist. They are efficient, attentive, and they mean business. I am glad they are around. I am not just saying that in attempt to bank points with them, either. (Although, if it isn't too much to trouble...)

I would rather have them in the forum, though.

Aren't those good features enough to utilize them in game, where assistence is actually needed? It is all about Zenimax just moving one modder to do GM's job in game. How is that a problem?

You can stalker ur beloved modder in game too.

VaranisArano

If you want to be a self-appointed Bot Buster, here is the addon for you: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1818-BotScanner2000.html

You can quickly and easily scan groups of obvious bots and send reports in to ZOS for each of them. I like to grab a screenshot or two to attach to the report, but that's not necessary.

Getern

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you want to be a self-appointed Bot Buster, here is the addon for you: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1818-BotScanner2000.html

You can quickly and easily scan groups of obvious bots and send reports in to ZOS for each of them. I like to grab a screenshot or two to attach to the report, but that's not necessary.

...

Are u aware that those reports are pointless, do see less bots at any point? Did someone ever seen GM in the game to deal with it? Reporting is far from enough, although it could help mentioned "bot hunter" to actually remove them for good.

Elsonso

Getern wrote: »

Aren't those good features enough to utilize them in game, where assistence is actually needed? It is all about Zenimax just moving one modder to do GM's job in game. How is that a problem?

It is needed in the forum 100x more than it is needed in the game.

NewBlacksmurf

No, because forums are more important.

If it’s that which becomes required the development team should change things so it’s harder to automate.

If they didn’t want them in the game they wouldn’t be paying to have bots to help them test development.

Think about it...

VaranisArano

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you want to be a self-appointed Bot Buster, here is the addon for you: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1818-BotScanner2000.html

You can quickly and easily scan groups of obvious bots and send reports in to ZOS for each of them. I like to grab a screenshot or two to attach to the report, but that's not necessary.

...

Are u aware that those reports are pointless, do see less bots at any point? Did someone ever seen GM in the game to deal with it? Reporting is far from enough, although it could help mentioned "bot hunter" to actually remove them for good.

Yes, actually. A couple months ago now, a GM popped around several zones on PC/NA clearing out major groups of bots, some of which I'd reported along with other people. I was online and got to actually point out a bot the GM missed.

I wish they did it more often, but yeah, they do sometimes go in game and clear out bots when the playerbase can see them. Its not completely the labor of Sisyphus.

DoctorESO

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krachall

Poorly worded poll. I think it’s a bad idea and it has nothing to do with the forums.

Nightfall12

I would totally apply for a job playing a game, you know as a secret under cover agent hunting bots…i'd take min wage to to do it….but I would want to change my account name to Botocalyspe

DoctorESO

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Slick_007

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you want to be a self-appointed Bot Buster, here is the addon for you: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1818-BotScanner2000.html

You can quickly and easily scan groups of obvious bots and send reports in to ZOS for each of them. I like to grab a screenshot or two to attach to the report, but that's not necessary.

...

Are u aware that those reports are pointless, do see less bots at any point? Did someone ever seen GM in the game to deal with it? Reporting is far from enough, although it could help mentioned "bot hunter" to actually remove them for good.

yes people have reported seeing gms bot killing.

Sathukai

It would be nice to see something done with all the bots roaming around.

Getern

DoctorESO wrote: »

There is an opportunity cost to everything.

Moving a forum mod to being an in-game GM means one less forum. And that presupposes that the forum mod has the present knowledge, skills, and abilities to be an in-game GM dedicated to wiping out bots.

Why do you think ZOS hasn't done this already?

Why do u ppl give a damn about that forum so bad? The point of that forum is just to argue with casuals. There is nothing constructive going on ever and even when it is, its still not being taken into account.

I belive that the modder already do have some knowledge, there is not much he had to learn. Permabaning must be so complicated, oh my gosh. One or few step which can be learn in no time.

Why did Zose not do that? I personally think (don't you dare removing that comment) that money from subsription being paid by cheaters outweights money from neccesity of buying the game again after ban. Also that might mean denying additional revenue.
Ironic, they dont mind that income but same time they refusing simple changes to bring playerbase and money.

Getern

Slick_007 wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you want to be a self-appointed Bot Buster, here is the addon for you: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1818-BotScanner2000.html

You can quickly and easily scan groups of obvious bots and send reports in to ZOS for each of them. I like to grab a screenshot or two to attach to the report, but that's not necessary.

...

Are u aware that those reports are pointless, do see less bots at any point? Did someone ever seen GM in the game to deal with it? Reporting is far from enough, although it could help mentioned "bot hunter" to actually remove them for good.

yes people have reported seeing gms bot killing.

How often tho?

BlazingDynamo

Do you have to buy the game again if you get banned on PC? On console you just make a new free account.

Getern

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

Do you have to buy the game again if you get banned on PC? On console you just make a new free account.

It doesnt make sense, shouldn't your account be blocked after permaban?

Turelus

No, because forums are more important.

Well do we know for sure that the forums mods are purely employed as forums mods?

From what we've seen and heard from ZOS in recent months it seems like bots are taken out the game, the issue is just the speeds at which they're being replaced. I guess if this is something the forums staff could take on then sure why not.

Although that said... The forums are more important.

Getern

Turelus wrote: »

Although that said... The forums are more important.

son of a ...

Merlin13KAGL

Getern wrote: »

I am just recently wondering. There is a few, definitely more than one, tho I dont really know how many. The forum modders, what they basically do is checking out if your comment is salty enough to warn you or they simply remove it. Same time they don't really care about feedback what gives my idea even more sense.

How about making one of those guys dedicated Bot hunter? Its just forum here, not a big deal. What is a big deal tho is the state of the game. I dont really mind sacrifacing one forum modder to make Tamriel zones free from Bots, do you? I think that just one is enough, all he had to do is to head to the most bot occupied zones and simply permaban obvious cheaters, simple as that. Same time it either removes cheater permamently or makes him buy the game again. What then? Simple, ban him again. Profit.

I mean this is just pure logic. Maybe there is something wrong with me, maybe ppl always vote against me, maybe they are trolling, maybe it because of general stupidity. Although I cant really come up with a single reason why shouldn't they do that. We are basically spliting barely important resources for something actually relevant.

Can I have some Dev/Mod response on this?

So your options are: * Yes, I don't see why they shouldn't do that. * No, because forums are more important.

• If it requires a poll to determine if it's a good idea, the answer is probably already 'no.'
• Pure logic would be involve a "Yes" or a "No" option. The qualifiers you add forces someone to agree with the secondary statement by association with the first. You're also trying apply logic to an opinion based poll.
• As a result, you either need to simplify your poll choices, or you need to allow for more than the two possibilities

Everything decision they make that requires financial investment gets examined for Return on Investment (ROI), I almost guarantee it. The forums get moderated because they are in the public eye, and peoples' feelings get hurt. The game, without legal purchase, or a free-to-play event, is not.

That is the reason the forums get more attention than bots do. I also think you vastly underestimate the work involved in policing numerous zones, instances, and times of day, let alone the time required to verify, investigate, and document all of the above thing. You equally underestimate the ingenuity of botters' owners' programming ability and the ability of same to acquire additional, possibly illegitimately acquired accounts.

Numerous suggestions have been offered up on how to deal with this, some player based (no salary required), some semi to fully automated.

So, have to go with nonexistant Option 3: "No," because I don't believe this is even remotely the ideal way.

Tandor

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you want to be a self-appointed Bot Buster, here is the addon for you: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1818-BotScanner2000.html

You can quickly and easily scan groups of obvious bots and send reports in to ZOS for each of them. I like to grab a screenshot or two to attach to the report, but that's not necessary.

...

Are u aware that those reports are pointless, do see less bots at any point? Did someone ever seen GM in the game to deal with it? Reporting is far from enough, although it could help mentioned "bot hunter" to actually remove them for good.

You can't remove them for good, they are already being perma-banned but they create a new account and make a new character just like the old on, farming the same spot as before (hence it looking like ZOS haven't done anything).

Remember also that there are not only an awful lot of spots to monitor, but there are 6 servers each made up with multiple instances of those spots, so it isn't quite as simple as having one GM checking out the spot that may bother you on your particular server.

Could they put in more resources and make a bigger impact on bots? Undoubtedly. Could they remove the problem entirely? Not a chance.

Elsonso

DoctorESO wrote: »

There is an opportunity cost to everything.

Moving a forum mod to being an in-game GM means one less forum. And that presupposes that the forum mod has the present knowledge, skills, and abilities to be an in-game GM dedicated to wiping out bots.

Why do you think ZOS hasn't done this already?

If I had to answer that, I would say because ZOS still runs the forum and the forum staff works for ZOS. In contrast, I think that Customer Support is provided by Bethesda, and Customer Support does Bots. Maybe they are all one happy family, but if they wanted to permanently change assignments, my guess is that person would have to change companies.

Getern

Tandor wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you want to be a self-appointed Bot Buster, here is the addon for you: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1818-BotScanner2000.html

You can quickly and easily scan groups of obvious bots and send reports in to ZOS for each of them. I like to grab a screenshot or two to attach to the report, but that's not necessary.

...

Are u aware that those reports are pointless, do see less bots at any point? Did someone ever seen GM in the game to deal with it? Reporting is far from enough, although it could help mentioned "bot hunter" to actually remove them for good.

You can't remove them for good, they are already being perma-banned but they create a new account and make a new character just like the old on, farming the same spot as before (hence it looking like ZOS haven't done anything).

Remember also that there are not only an awful lot of spots to monitor, but there are 6 servers each made up with multiple instances of those spots, so it isn't quite as simple as having one GM checking out the spot that may bother you on your particular server.

Could they put in more resources and make a bigger impact on bots? Undoubtedly. Could they remove the problem entirely? Not a chance.

While 2 PC ones are moslty affected. These are the servers they gotta work on. Isn't making the new account requires to purchasing the game? Cause you guys somehow gives me idea, that isn't.

Merlin13KAGL

Getern wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Getern wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you want to be a self-appointed Bot Buster, here is the addon for you: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info1818-BotScanner2000.html

You can quickly and easily scan groups of obvious bots and send reports in to ZOS for each of them. I like to grab a screenshot or two to attach to the report, but that's not necessary.

...

Are u aware that those reports are pointless, do see less bots at any point? Did someone ever seen GM in the game to deal with it? Reporting is far from enough, although it could help mentioned "bot hunter" to actually remove them for good.

You can't remove them for good, they are already being perma-banned but they create a new account and make a new character just like the old on, farming the same spot as before (hence it looking like ZOS haven't done anything).

Remember also that there are not only an awful lot of spots to monitor, but there are 6 servers each made up with multiple instances of those spots, so it isn't quite as simple as having one GM checking out the spot that may bother you on your particular server.

Could they put in more resources and make a bigger impact on bots? Undoubtedly. Could they remove the problem entirely? Not a chance.

While 2 PC ones are moslty affected. These are the servers they gotta work on. Isn't making the new account requires to purchasing the game? Cause you guys somehow gives me idea, that isn't.

Do you honestly think they're not getting a return on their investment in order to bot continuously?

Whether it's gold selling, mat selling, gear selling (all for IRL $$ , even if unadvertised), it's worth their time to do it or botting wouldn't be a viable thing.

Also, yes, it requires a game purchase. You're assuming the game purchases used by botters are acquired with their own money. Unlawfully acquired accounts likely only take hours to benefit the botter, whether purchased via stolen CC numbers, or any other means.

Your suggestions do nothing for either circumstance, because the botter is not losing their investment at all (time, nor money.)

dennissomb16_ESO

Far easier to use one of the multitudes of Business Intelligence software products on the market. So easy for these software products to track things such as Bots residing in one spot for hours on end. Set your parameters and when Bots hit the threshold a GM logs in, goes and takes a look and starts the removal if they are indeed bots.

Secondly ESO could make the reporting function far easier for players. present system is clunky and difficult. Trying to remember which MMO it is but when reporting a player you right click player option to report pops immedietly, type what you want and the ticket also includes screen shot, time and location automatically

swippy

someone has a gross misapprehension of what "pure logic" means (not naming and shaming)

the most obvious answer is re-training. the rest is so glaringly plain that it's tough to tell which part to explain.

6/10 made me respond

Nestor

Its not that ZOS does not remove Bots, its that ZOS won't hardware and IP ban the people running them.

VaranisArano

One of the issues I had with bot-monitoring is that there are multiple instances of zones. One instance of Grahtwood may look clear and the other instance may have bots on the Haven beach and the Karthdar senche loop. Or in Rivenspire, there are two instances, and both may have different groups of bots farming the harpies at Silverhoof Vale.

So reporting bots got tiresome when there's multiple instances and I can't determine which one I end up in until I went out to the location and figured out whether it was the same bots I reported that morning or a different group.

Elsonso

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

Secondly ESO could make the reporting function far easier for players. present system is clunky and difficult. Trying to remember which MMO it is but when reporting a player you right click player option to report pops immedietly, type what you want and the ticket also includes screen shot, time and location automatically

PC has an add-on that makes reporting bots simple and easy. It does not make bots disappear any faster.

ESO pretty much does the popup thing, without the add-on. We can't "right click" on them because we don't use the mouse in the UI in that manner, but it is close. The main downside is that you have to get close enough to them to trigger the interaction. That is where the add-on makes it easier.

If there is a player reporting issue, it is more along the lines of apathy than anything else. Players simply don't report. Make it super easy to report, and players will still simply not report. I don't report them. I would report if I felt that it would do any good. I have a list of 80 bots I could have reported just in the last two weeks, but it isn't worth the time. In two weeks, the bulk of those 80 would still be in the game, and any that had disappeared would simply be replaced by new ones.

Depending on players to report bots is not a sustainable approach to bots. ZOS has to detect bots the day they are inserted into the game, without players having to report them. Yes, it is possible for them to detect these bots through behavioral analysis. I am sure the Business Analytics people can detect them, if ZOS has paid attention to making their game properly measurable.

The question is whether the players are really interested enough to do something about it. If the players are not interested, should the studio be? Botters and gold sellers have to find games with players apathetic to their methods a rich playground to be in. I fear that ESO is becoming one of those games.