Kicked from Group at Last Boss

ghostface14

Just got kicked off group as DPS in City of Ash II vet by group after just two attempts at the boss (first one lasted 20 seconds). Took 30-45 mins to get to that point and it sucks that nobody gave me any feedback or just another shot, I’ve done some bosses 5 times before winning and Valkyn is pretty tough. Pretty discouraging to keep playing after that, why is this even allowed (late dungeon kicking)? Obviously I’m trying if i stuck around that long and it sucks to not to get to finish and get the mask. What the hell..

Jim_Pipp

It sucks to loose the mask and it really sucks not knowing why you were singled out. The implication is that the three other people in your dungeon thought you were the reason the group was failing. What is your dps on a target dummy?

Loc2262

Was your group trying the hard mode? Skoria on HM is quite a DPS race, comparatively. IIRC, ~40k group DPS and awareness of the mechanics (to avoid dying ) is a necessity. The fact that you needed ~45 minutes to get to the end boss might be an indication that your overall DPS was too low. It is a long dungeon, but shouldn't take 45 minutes for a group that is able to do the Skoria HM.

Of course that doesn't mean it was necessarily your fault. So like Jim said, your DPS on the target skeleton is a valid question. If that is below 20k, feel free to ask for some advice to improve it.

And don't feel discouraged. CoA2 is among the hardest non-DLC dungeons, if not the hardest. As far as vet content goes, there's plenty of easier stuff to do, and thus work up towards the more difficult stuff.

duendology

@Loc2262 ,
how do you measure the dps on the dummy? A single hit? light? Heavy? Skill? Over time? Critical? AFTER you "kill" a dummy?

Loc2262

The latter. DPS = damage per second, here total damage dealt divided by duration of fight. I.e. you drop the skeleton all the way from 3M/6M health to 0 and then divide its health by the number of seconds you needed.

Or you use the addon "Combat Metrics" which does the calculation (and much more) for you. Additionally the game prints a chat message whenever you leave combat with a target skeleton (or was it only when you kill the skeleton?), telling you the DPS.

This way you measure the sustained damage you can deal as opposed to burst damage, which is important since dungeon bosses have 3-6M health on veteran and you can't burst them down in a few seconds.

Generally you want at least 15-20k DPS for veteran dungeons, more for things like Skoria hard mode or DLC dungeons. Depending on the group/guild, requirements for DDs ready for vet trials are 25+k or 30-35k on the skeleton, and "high-end" DDs do 40+k. (I'm personally in the ~33k area.)

duendology

Oh my DPS sucks then. If I read it correctly I deal around 10K. I don't wear a fanciful monster set or super hyper Maelstrom staff.

Didgerion

ghostface14 wrote: »

Just got kicked off group as DPS in City of Ash II vet by group after just two attempts at the boss (first one lasted 20 seconds). Took 30-45 mins to get to that point and it sucks that nobody gave me any feedback or just another shot, I’ve done some bosses 5 times before winning and Valkyn is pretty tough. Pretty discouraging to keep playing after that, why is this even allowed (late dungeon kicking)? Obviously I’m trying if i stuck around that long and it sucks to not to get to finish and get the mask. What the hell..

Well you were after the helm - the rest were after 2 keys.

There are 3 options here:
1. No one gets what they want - the group is cancelled
2. Three players don't get what they want - they switch it to easy mode and the fight continues.
3. One player doesn't get he want. - the player is kicked out for replacement.

Which one would you pick?

duendology

If you had gotten kicked after just two attempts...from which the first lasted just 20 seconds... then my guess is... there rest of the three weren't that much of zehr fantastish champions either..or am I terribly unfair here?

Either way, I think they were rude..to put it lightly. If they had wanted a dream tream they shouldn't have gone with random dungeon finder...

Loc2262

@duendology is right here, usually a good group of three can carry a less than optimal fourth player. I'm curious if they were able to beat Skoria with the replacement DD they got.

Then again, 10k is really low. You can do that with just your DOTs ticking. You don't really need a monster set, and most certainly don't need Maelstrom weapons (I don't have the latter either, not bothered to push myself through vMA yet) to get to 20+k. On my magblade I use 5xJulianos, 4xMoondancer, 2xSkoria with fire/lightning staves and reach ~32k. You can use Ilambris or Grothdarr instead of Skoria which are easy to get, and e.g. 4xTreasure Hunter instead of Moondancer if you don't wish to run trials, or 3xWillpower and setless staves.

duendology

@Loc2262

Edit:
Julianos and Necropotence here. Moondancer or Monster sets are beyond my reach at the moment. I am sure I'll put my hands on them eventually.

As for the OP. I somehow doubt. Or maybe they did finish it?... After an hour or two. I mean, I am not an expert.. but from what I've seen, and experienced during my only one vet dungeon run (fI was a noob in the group.. but on my Stamblade not SorcMag) 20 seconds suggests that none of them was an experienced player. :P

Loc2262

Yeah you really don't need a monster set at your stage, if you're at 10k DPS right now, there's a lot of other things to improve before a monster set will pay off. Monster sets usually do around 1.5-2k DPS (I'm curious if ZOS is gonna nerf that 4k Zaan before it goes live ), but they're worth pursuing only if you have 25+k anyway.

Julianos is a very solid magicka set, part of nearly any "meta" build. As for Necropotence, I suppose you're aware that's only useful for pet builds. A really nice alternative for monster set-less builds is using 3 pieces Willpower jewelry, 5xJulianos including staves, and three pieces of some set of your choice that gives max magicka, spell damage or spell crit.

Wiping after 20 seconds on Skoria indeed does not bode well for the group overall. Really shouldn't happen. The fight isn't difficult in terms of survival if the tank keeps aggro and the healer keeps his springs down. It's more a matter of doing enough damage to finish the guy before all platforms are gone.

WrathOfTheRipper

That is just the way the game is now. Yea i agree with you it totally sucks. You have to understand though that when people get in these groups, they want to get through it quickly, and when they stumble and fail they look for the lowest cp player in the group and kick them thinking they must be the problem.

Its not you with low cp, could be the healer or tank nor other dps nit doing their job, but the *** will always fall to the lowest/ most inexperienced players. If you can show them that you are not the problem right off the bat by not dying and killing stuff really fast, then you wont have a problem anymore. Just look up a pve build for your class on google. Alcast makes good builds, and go from there.

duendology

It's all true what you said, @WrathOfTheRipper ,
except that from what the OP said, the whole group couldn't even survive 20 seconds.. so somehow I doubt it was the OP's fault they couldn't beat the final Boss. And the OP's role was DPSing..so I'd have to assume the healer sucked big a***...or there were no real healer on the board in the first place...just a player with some "back bar" or one skill even?

xb1LL_mr_sir_LL

get in a guild. when you run with random people youll get random outcomes.

SirDopey

Were you in the dungeon the whole time? Like, did you get through Horvantud with the group? If your DPS was good enough to get through him you should have fairly been given the opportunity to do Skoria

Kuramas9tails

Sadly, it sounds like your DPS is a little low. I have guild members who hit that much and when my boyfriend and I try to help them, we tend to stray away from vet dungeons with them because they do make it hard, especially if they die all the time. We will do some Vet dudgeons if him and I know we can two man it or close to but some, like COAII, no. Eventually, even in trials, I stop resing people who die all the time. It's a loss of DPS and it's better to just keep them down sometimes and finish the task. But I have seen VCOA II be completed by two people, a DK tank and a DPS mageblade so with the right DPS, you can carry a second DPS so it probably wasn't just you but the group as a whole.

Rotation is key to high DPS.

LeagueTroll

If Op is a 10k dps, the fact they are willing to waste time with op after 1st boss is already pretty amazing.

10k is not a rotation problem. 10k means pure trash build, equip elegance spam heavy attack over and over and over is already 10k dps. 10k is like spam wrecking blow, spam snipe, spam crystal that tier of bad.

And that healer clearly don’t suck, bad healer won’t even pass deadroth boss.

Nestor

Vet CoAII is a painful dungeon. I am not sure if I have ever beat it with a Pug. Guildmates, sure, but not a Pug.

duendology

LeagueTroll wrote: »

If Op is a 10k dps, the fact they are willing to waste time with op after 1st boss is already pretty amazing.

10k is not a rotation problem. 10k means pure trash build, equip elegance spam heavy attack over and over and over is already 10k dps. 10k is like spam wrecking blow, spam snipe, spam crystal that tier of bad.

And that healer clearly don’t suck, bad healer won’t even pass deadroth boss.

@LeagueTroll

You scrolled through the thread rather than read it, right? o_0
Nowhere it's said that the OP had a low dps. 10dps appears in a short conversation here between me and @Loc2262 . And I said it's MY dps NOT the OP's. o_0
And I wouldn't call Julianos and Mother's Sorrow or Julianos and Necro (for pets) a trash build. It is perhaps not a fancy pancy build, but certainly not a trash one, thank you very much... And worry not, I stay away from the random finder.. to avoid people like you.

Also, I very much doubt it was a dream team if they had happened to get wiped within matter of seconds. and I mean ALL OF THEM, not just the OP. You would have known that if you had read the op

LeagueTroll

duendology wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

If Op is a 10k dps, the fact they are willing to waste time with op after 1st boss is already pretty amazing.

10k is not a rotation problem. 10k means pure trash build, equip elegance spam heavy attack over and over and over is already 10k dps. 10k is like spam wrecking blow, spam snipe, spam crystal that tier of bad.

And that healer clearly don’t suck, bad healer won’t even pass deadroth boss.

@LeagueTroll

You scrolled through the thread rather than read it, right? o_0
Nowhere it's said that the OP had a low dps. 10dps appears in a short conversation here between me and @Loc2262 . And I said it's MY dps NOT the OP's. o_0
And I wouldn't call Julianos and Mother's Sorrow or Julianos and Necro (for pets) a trash build. It is perhaps not a fancy pancy build, but certainly not a trash one. thank you very much... And worry not, I stay away from the random finder.. to avoid people like you.

Also, I very much doubt it was a dream team if they had happened to get wiped within matter of seconds. and I mean ALL OF THEM, not just the OP. You would have known that if you had read the op

Funny how 10k ppl think it is ok when the other guy is pulling 30k+ and ppl who hit harder should just carry 10k folks, or even worse some 10k folks think they pull their own weight. Like what i said run elegance and heavy attack over and over and over is already 10k dps.

duendology

Did you even read what I wrote? What are you replying to? 10k was the number I mentioned.. why did you assume it's the OPs? Maybe because you DID NOT read the thread?
Also, I don't wear elegant or whatever...
Ahh and also, I double checked my dps.. and it turned out it's around 24k..I am sure it's still low but f*** it.

And what is this "assuming" game again? "10 k ppl" think what? Are you thinking aloud or something? Or asking me? I can't reply for so called "10k ppl". 0_o
I told you.. you will not find me in dungeons via random dungeon finder...so what's the problem here?

I also love how you assume that low level players or inexperienced ones can't wait, just can't contains themselve, but being carried through dungeons. Lovely.You really must have a bad luck with a random finder. I bet that most of those "10 K people" want to be helpful and also get EXPERIENCE and a BETTER GEAR to, guess what, be BETTER! And guess what, again, some items can be found only in dungeons and only on vet mode! Unbelievable! Also.. you can only GET BETTER THROUGH PRACTISING. You do it, ACTUALLY while running a dungeon whether on a normal or vet mode. I know, I know.. it's impossible to imagine..

You, of course, must have started playing eso in your crib so you no longer remember you were a total noob to this game once upon a time and how many times you got killed before figuring out stuff?

I love how you whine about so called "10k ppl"... and I keep saying... want a dream team? Avoid random finder... it's THAT simple

edit:
Wish I could have the eso knowledge and all that s**t just loaded up to my brain.. and, like Neo in Matrix, say "I know jujitsu" *coughs* eso, I mean..

VaranisArano

So, I've done Vet COAII with a group who's DPS had around 10-15K single target DPS each. Not Hard Mode, obviously, but its doable (barely). At the very end, we struggled more due to lag. It wasn't an easy run, given that it was our first run of the dungeon as well, so DPS was lower due to learning mechanics, but its not impossible.

However, we were all friends and in voice comms. It makes a world of difference when you can laugh about wipes, complain about lag, and strategize about the next try together. Groupfinder is a totally different experience.

Loc2262

VaranisArano wrote: »

So, I've done Vet COAII with a group who's DPS had around 10-15K single target DPS each. Not Hard Mode, obviously, but its doable (barely). At the very end, we struggled more due to lag. It wasn't an easy run, given that it was our first run of the dungeon as well, so DPS was lower due to learning mechanics, but its not impossible.

However, we were all friends and in voice comms. It makes a world of difference when you can laugh about wipes, complain about lag, and strategize about the next try together. Groupfinder is a totally different experience.

That is very true!

Alcast streamed a PTS session a few days ago, his group (of apparent end game players, they were in Teamspeak and had titles like Tick-Tock Tormentor) kept wiping over and over for like two hours at the endboss of Scalecaller Peak HM, before they decided to do non-HM and beat the boss in 2 minutes. Yet they indeed had good laughs about a lot of the wipes.

(Also, Zenimax really needs to adjust the difficulty spike between HM and non-HM on that boss if even Alcast's team fails so badly three weeks into the PTS cycle.)

altemriel

ghostface14 wrote: »

Just got kicked off group as DPS in City of Ash II vet by group after just two attempts at the boss (first one lasted 20 seconds). Took 30-45 mins to get to that point and it sucks that nobody gave me any feedback or just another shot, I’ve done some bosses 5 times before winning and Valkyn is pretty tough. Pretty discouraging to keep playing after that, why is this even allowed (late dungeon kicking)? Obviously I’m trying if i stuck around that long and it sucks to not to get to finish and get the mask. What the hell..

I am with you, such a behaviour of the other group mates is not ok. they should have at least tell you why they kick you.
but I would not take it personaly, maybe there were just *********. that happens.

Asardes

If you are DD you, and probably the other DD were very bad if it took you 45 minutes to reach the boss. If you don't pull >50K DPS as a group there he'll break the last platform before you down him. As others have suggested, do a DPS parse on the 6M dummy and check your DPS in the chat window at the end of the fight. If it's less than 25K you need to seriously revise your rotation, gear and CP distribution. Check build guides for ideas.
http://deltiasgaming.com/
https://alcasthq.com/

Minyassa

Disgusting. There's never an excuse to do that to someone, just never. If they had time to limp through that far they had time to keep plugging at it with better strategy and learn from mistakes until they finished. Lazy, lame, and rude. I hope they failed with their replacement, too, and had to give up.

Apache_Kid

Loc2262 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So, I've done Vet COAII with a group who's DPS had around 10-15K single target DPS each. Not Hard Mode, obviously, but its doable (barely). At the very end, we struggled more due to lag. It wasn't an easy run, given that it was our first run of the dungeon as well, so DPS was lower due to learning mechanics, but its not impossible.

However, we were all friends and in voice comms. It makes a world of difference when you can laugh about wipes, complain about lag, and strategize about the next try together. Groupfinder is a totally different experience.

That is very true!

Alcast streamed a PTS session a few days ago, his group (of apparent end game players, they were in Teamspeak and had titles like Tick-Tock Tormentor) kept wiping over and over for like two hours at the endboss of Scalecaller Peak HM, before they decided to do non-HM and beat the boss in 2 minutes. Yet they indeed had good laughs about a lot of the wipes.

(Also, Zenimax really needs to adjust the difficulty spike between HM and non-HM on that boss if even Alcast's team fails so badly three weeks into the PTS cycle.)

Yeah can't wait for even more content with acheivments that are out of reach for 99.9% of the player-base!

munster1404

Apache_Kid wrote: »

Loc2262 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So, I've done Vet COAII with a group who's DPS had around 10-15K single target DPS each. Not Hard Mode, obviously, but its doable (barely). At the very end, we struggled more due to lag. It wasn't an easy run, given that it was our first run of the dungeon as well, so DPS was lower due to learning mechanics, but its not impossible.

However, we were all friends and in voice comms. It makes a world of difference when you can laugh about wipes, complain about lag, and strategize about the next try together. Groupfinder is a totally different experience.

That is very true!

Alcast streamed a PTS session a few days ago, his group (of apparent end game players, they were in Teamspeak and had titles like Tick-Tock Tormentor) kept wiping over and over for like two hours at the endboss of Scalecaller Peak HM, before they decided to do non-HM and beat the boss in 2 minutes. Yet they indeed had good laughs about a lot of the wipes.

(Also, Zenimax really needs to adjust the difficulty spike between HM and non-HM on that boss if even Alcast's team fails so badly three weeks into the PTS cycle.)

Yeah can't wait for even more content with acheivments that are out of reach for 99.9% of the player-base!

I have always felt that dungeons should have more levels of difficulty and perhaps raise the party cap to 5 or 6 but still retaining the option to start the dungeon when 4 slots have been filled.

Magdalina

Loc2262 wrote: »

Was your group trying the hard mode? Skoria on HM is quite a DPS race, comparatively. IIRC, ~40k group DPS and awareness of the mechanics (to avoid dying ) is a necessity.

Eh. Tbh you can beat Skoria with literally any dps even on hm at this point. You don't need to die once platforms are gone even I'm also fairly sure you need way less than 40k to do it before platforms go, although I'm not 100% sure on that. I know it's been nerfed so so SO many times it's doable even with the weakest teams - long as they're willing to try and follow mechanics at least. I've done vet CoA 2 with pugs many, many, many times.

To OP, I wasn't in the team so I obviously can't say for sure, but there can be one very valid reason to kick people off the last fight - if it's obvious it's simply not possible with these people on the team. Of course it's generally common courtesy to at least say what the problem is and give people a chance to redeem themselves(use food, slot a couple different skills, watch mechanics more closely, etc), but there's only so much you can do...

I kicked a "healer" on Skoria the other day. They didn't have a resto staff, other dps and tank were obviously also weak and inexperienced, so I had to go full healer mode on Ash Titan to have at least some way to get through("healer" spent most of the fight dead despite getting healed and being told to use Annulment, I ended up heavy attacking atros and then boss to death in between frantically spamming heals), but there was just no way it was happening on Skoria. They didn't even HAVE a resto staff to equip. I told them to just dps but they kept dying while standing in my Springs regardless. The other 2 people needed non stop heals as well pretty much so our group dps plummeted to like below 10k. Skoria would break all platforms while being at 80% health and they'd proceed to run off into lava and die despite being told where the safe place is. Was either no one gets the completion or we kick someone and the other three actually make it. Kicked the "healer", invited a dps friend while healing myself, got HM first try(pretty much 2 manned it).

As a dps - were you dying a lot? Were you breaking Skoria's shield in time(before he starts summoning more atros) and then killing atros? Do you know how much dps you were doing?

Waffennacht

This isn't directed at OP.

But my God, the DPS of some PuGs is just.... Like how do you even get that low of Dps?

Just for @#_& and giggles, I used Infernal Guardian, Alchemist, and Necropotence on my Sorc with horrid rotation and hit 26k dps.

Also, kicking kind is the only option, not gonna pump someone's dps by 15k on the fly

TheDarkShadow

Minyassa wrote: »

Disgusting. There's never an excuse to do that to someone, just never. If they had time to limp through that far they had time to keep plugging at it with better strategy and learn from mistakes until they finished. Lazy, lame, and rude. I hope they failed with their replacement, too, and had to give up.

If the OP's dps only around 10k, then indeed he is the weak link and was carried the whole dungeon up the that point. If they could keep carry him thru the last boss, probably they would, but experience players can know if the boss can be done after a few attempts or it will just hopelessly banging your head into a wall over and over and over, waste everyone time, gold to repair, and soul gems. A lack of understanding in mechanic can be learn after a few attempts, but a lack of dps can't. An experience group will also know who is the weak link, not even need an addon, just by looking at the skills a player use. He can't blame them for not wanting to waste more time and gold banging head into wall.