Increase Ap for defending a keep

Jake1576

It is leading to ppl not caring about defending and only worrying about taking there are actually groups on ps4 na that will let the other alliance take a keep just so they can go back and get it after it flips for more ap only keeps tho resources should stay the same for defending them so it will not lead to more ppl wanting to farm a resource

Radinyn

Yes

AllPlayAndNoWork

This very thing was being discussed here... https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4703511#Comment_4703511

Turning the OP from capturing AP being too high to the possibility of getting def AP raised in line with it.

Nephimana

No, they changed this a while ago for defending and offensive ticks and increased the AP gain for turning keeps and resources. Because not too long ago, cyrodil was just a turtle fest. A zerg would sit inside a keep and wont kill everyone attacking, these things would go on for about 40 minutes to an hour because the defensive ticks would go up and up. Once I got an 28k tick, which is nothing compared to what others have gotten.

I do think you should get more for successful defences when a flagged keep then goes unflagged. But even that could get abused easily.

Its fine now (fine meaning better than before, people actually get things done)

Jake1576

.

badmojo

Nephimana wrote: »

No, they changed this a while ago for defending and offensive ticks and increased the AP gain for turning keeps and resources. Because not too long ago, cyrodil was just a turtle fest. A zerg would sit inside a keep and wont kill everyone attacking, these things would go on for about 40 minutes to an hour because the defensive ticks would go up and up. Once I got an 28k tick, which is nothing compared to what others have gotten.

I do think you should get more for successful defences when a flagged keep then goes unflagged. But even that could get abused easily.

Its fine now (fine meaning better than before, people actually get things done)

In my opinion that tick building made the fights more interesting. The longer the fight went on the more important it was for both sides to try and win, they werent fighting for the keep as much as they were fighting for that 28k tick. It actually worked to motivate players. These days people just throw themselves at each other with little investment in the outcome of the battle.

redspecter23

Perhaps consider giving defensive ticks over time instead of one lump sum at the end. The all or nothing nature of defending can be a bit of a turnoff. You could spend 10 - 20 minutes trying to defend, then a zerg shows up and wipes you along with all the time you've put in. That same 10 - 20 minutes could have earned 10 - 20k AP just flipping resources and that's nearly guaranteed AP.

Apache_Kid

AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »

This very thing was being discussed here... https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4703511#Comment_4703511

Turning the OP from capturing AP being too high to the possibility of getting def AP raised in line with it.

It already takes a very long-time to get Grand Overlord. No way should offensive ticks be reduced. I'm all for increasing defensive ticks but honestly, many times my defensive ticks are very large simply because many players run away from them before they tick because they either don't realize it is coming or don't want to wait. Many times, my defensive ticks are the largest ticks. I got an 18k tick at alessia farm the other day because there was an extremely long and drawn out battle that I showed up to right as it ended. I saw that every other AD player was running to the keep after it so I stuck around and was the only one and got the whole tick for myself.

I'm ok with raising AP gained per tick but reducing the amount of AP gained for offensive ticks is outrageously stupid and I can't even imagine a player asking for something like that. Completely boggles the mind.

Ley

I've been gone for a while. I was wondering why no one defends keeps anymore. Didn't realize that they lowered the AP.

I used to love spending hours defending keeps for massive AP gains. It wasn't just for the AP though, I enjoyed coordinating small groups to fend off large groups. The AP was nice so that I could afford all the counter siege and repair kits without having to spend gold.

Sanctum74

I'm all for increasing defense ticks if it's only for the people that are actually defending. If you are hiding upstairs doing light attacks watching the enemies getting revived over and over then you should not get any tick and it should be split up to the people downstairs and on oils. Nothing more discouraging then repeatedly wiping the majority of the group just to see them keep reviving because people upstairs will not help.

f047ys3v3n

redspecter23 wrote: »

Perhaps consider giving defensive ticks over time instead of one lump sum at the end. The all or nothing nature of defending can be a bit of a turnoff. You could spend 10 - 20 minutes trying to defend, then a zerg shows up and wipes you along with all the time you've put in. That same 10 - 20 minutes could have earned 10 - 20k AP just flipping resources and that's nearly guaranteed AP.

Bingo,

I don't think it is really about the guarantee of AP though. It is more about the aggravating waiting, and the small amount, and the fact you will share it with half an alliance of PUG leaches. Here is what typically happens when my guild has a lead decide to defend a keep (a choice that is very unpopular with me.)

1) We spend 5 min riding to keep where we wipe the attacking group, burn their stuff, and repair the keep. (I do not understand why we don't just stealth up and wait for them to cap the thing and wipe them before they repair it.)
2) The keep unflags but does not reward the defensive tick yet.
3) Having seen the crossed swords followed by the keep unflagging our alliances pugs transitus there in order to leech the D tick. Having seen the crossed swords on the map and large amount of enemy siege lots of that enemies pugs head that way to leach an O tick. When they see they have lost and there is no big O tick to get they do the rational thing and suicide against the keep further delaying the D tick.
4) I expect that at some point somebody must get the tiny, less than 1k each, D tick but we left after wiping the attacking group because we know better and in that 15 min may have capped two keeps.

Bottom line, defending a keep successfully and acting in a rational way you will never see a defensive tick. The only time I ever get them is when we happen to transitus to a keep about to get one when we are on the way to somewhere else. On the bright side, there are now O ticks that happen at a predictable and controllable time when you cap the keep so there is now some reason to actually play objectives in PVP instead of just setting up farms at gates and resources. Hopefully, at some point, defense will be rewarded in a likewise predictable, remunerative, and objectives based way. It would, for instance be very nice if pugs were rewarded for defense such that it made sense for them to spend most of their time counter seiging and defending keeps instead of trying to either transitus to keeps already defended or show up at keeps being capped most of the way through the capture.

Of course it would also be nice if pugs didn't spend a huge amount of their time going to pug farms that the blues have set up near home keeps to die. I would like to imagine that with the right incentives PUGs might actually do something beneficial to their, instead of the enemys, alliance but maybe they will just keep going over to that building that the map shows has a scroll in in and just happens to be right by a town with a convenient spawn point for them if they should be so unlucky as to die. ZOS apparently seems to think that the solution to this problem may be in making "groups weaker." This presumably would be a scenario where the pugs could actually kill the farmers and take the scroll? Right, that is what is going to happen.

Ashdroid

Jake1576 wrote: »

It is leading to ppl not caring about defending and only worrying about taking there are actually groups on ps4 na that will let the other alliance take a keep just so they can go back and get it after it flips for more ap only keeps tho resources should stay the same for defending them so it will not lead to more ppl wanting to farm a resource

Saw this definitively for the first time last night. A small group was sieging a keep, while most of players of the "defensive" alliance were hanging back, with someone /yelling to just let them take the keep. Ridiculous.



So I just left and went to the Bleakers party; at least things make sense there.

dotme

Ley wrote: »

I've been gone for a while. I was wondering why no one defends keeps anymore. Didn't realize that they lowered the AP.

They didn't. D-ticks are still just as strong (Got an 11k at Chalman last night and I earned it). They boosted offensive ticks because of tower farmers and "turtling" and that, also, has worked. Cyrodiil is more active and interesting as a result of the changes.

I think people should be careful what they wish for. PvP will never be perfect, but the consequences of a change that isn't thought through very well can have very bad side effects.

Shawn_PT

In my limited PvP experience I still can't understand how ticks are calculated for keep fights. A few nights ago I was PvEing in Cyro when I noticed there were only 10k or so AP left for my next rank. Since there was a group going for Emp I decided to head for the last keep where a brawl was going on. There were about 15-20 people total, and since I was on my PvE healer I figured I'd be getting some AP for helping.

I healed the guys fighting outside the keep. I got killed a couple times, rezzed a couple people. Sieged the walls. Even got a killing blow or two with cold fires. When we broke in the fight went on inside the walls. I was waiting to see the tick when the last of the enemies died and the keep turned, crowing our Emperor. I stood there waiting inside the keep. And I waited. And then a tiny tick of 199 AP dropped. Figured it was someone out there who had expired. Nope. I waited and waited. Everyone left the area because nothing else was going on. And 199 AP was all I got for participating in the capture of a keep.

What gives???

Is it because I was not grouped with the others? Seriously? I was IN the keep. I fought just as much as everyone else. Had I known this would be all the AP gained I'd have gone around repairing walls instead of fighting because it would have earned me far, far more AP than a keep capture. 3 repair kits and I would have been covered.

The same happens when I'm PvPing with my guild. After a couple of hours they like to do a small tally, to see how much AP people have earned. I am always woefully behind with about half as much AP as the top scorers, and definitely the least in the group. Why? I really don't get it. I guess the AP gods truly have it against me out there lol

Reverb

I feel like there needs to be a happy medium between the current AP earning structure, and the way it used to be when d-ticks were all important, to the point that people wouldn't leave a keep to defend the rest of the map if there was an impending tick.

The move to offensive AP gains was good in theory, but was done in a way that encourages PvDoor, and flipping undefended resources. Meanwhile we feel grateful for a 7k tick after spending an hour defending a keep, getting dozens of kills.

I don't know what the right middle-ground is, but I know we're not there.

badmojo

The problem was groups turtling on resources, not keeps being defended. So keep the same low d ticks for resources and buff the keep defense ticks. Turtling on a keep is the point of Cyrodiil. Some of the best memories I have of this game are when few stood against many and defended Fort Ash for hours.

Ley

dotme wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

I've been gone for a while. I was wondering why no one defends keeps anymore. Didn't realize that they lowered the AP.

They didn't. D-ticks are still just as strong (Got an 11k at Chalman last night and I earned it). They boosted offensive ticks because of tower farmers and "turtling" and that, also, has worked. Cyrodiil is more active and interesting as a result of the changes.

I think people should be careful what they wish for. PvP will never be perfect, but the consequences of a change that isn't thought through very well can have very bad side effects.

Makes sense. Just makes me sad that keeps feel mostly deserted these days. People just capturing deserted keeps then abandoning them for the other factions to flip. Used to take some real team work to take a keep that was being heavily defended. The groups I've been running with lately tend to move onto new objectives at the first sign of resistance.

Maybe I just haven't been back long enough to be in some good fights.

To me PvP options currently feel like:

1. Flip abandoned resources/keeps
2. Join pug zerg and get farmed by other faction at a gate
3. Farm pug zerg at gate with small organized group
4. Hide around edges of zerg or well traveled routs and pick off stragglers

Draxys

Nephimana wrote: »

No, they changed this a while ago for defending and offensive ticks and increased the AP gain for turning keeps and resources. Because not too long ago, cyrodil was just a turtle fest. A zerg would sit inside a keep and wont kill everyone attacking, these things would go on for about 40 minutes to an hour because the defensive ticks would go up and up. Once I got an 28k tick, which is nothing compared to what others have gotten.

I do think you should get more for successful defences when a flagged keep then goes unflagged. But even that could get abused easily.

Its fine now (fine meaning better than before, people actually get things done)

I disagree that it’s fine now, for a couple reasons.

1) having big offensive ticks has led to people avoiding pvp in a pvp zone. Kinda strange, don’t you think? For example, last time I was in vicec prime time, AD’s latest zone herding group was pushing farra. Reds were pushing for bleak/ales, and blues were working on roe. The current system encourages abusing the system and avoiding actual pvp.

2) I don’t think turtling is less fun than pvdooring in circles around each other. At least there’s action and sometimes a surprise outcome.

I do like the suggestion for ticks to be split up into waves, and only being awarded if you contribute to the fight (damaging enemies or healing someone who does.)

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

here is a better idea. FIX THE DAMN LAGFEST!

Hallothiel

Damn haven't been in Cyrodiil for a while but I loved being one of those who valiently defend a keep against all the odds, trying to repel atracks whilst frantically asking for help in text chat. Felt great when only a few of you managed to see off a large zerg. Shame if that does not happen now.

(Used to love pacing the battlements, knowing an attack is coming - but when -
anticipation was intense!)

Goshua

Hallothiel wrote: »

Damn haven't been in Cyrodiil for a while but I loved being one of those who valiently defend a keep against all the odds, trying to repel atracks whilst frantically asking for help in text chat. Felt great when only a few of you managed to see off a large zerg. Shame if that does not happen now.

(Used to love pacing the battlements, knowing an attack is coming - but when -
anticipation was intense!)

Does feel satisfying defending against many for sure, it also feels great overwhelming a strong defense as well.
It's what I enjoy the most about ESO pvp

And it still happens but it depends on the keep, some are expendable. What also happens is just plain numbers rolling around essentially pvdooring, which faction is doing it depends on the time of day.

geonsocal

home run on this thread mister jake...

thanks for caring enough to make the threads which you do - much appreciated @Jake1576