I'm ok with eso being easy but... Red telegraphs should mean something
Aliyavana
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Red telegraphs and knockbacks should mean something... such things are fatal in pvp and endgame pvp and then tickling only breeds players that stand in stupid and proceed to blame their healers for not being able to heal through a one shot. So encouraging learning to block, bash, and not to stand in stupid is a nice compromise as the average player is likely to kill the mob before seeing these mechanics anyway.
Edited by Aliyavana on December 29, 2017 12:19AM 7
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Zordrage✭✭✭✭✭the game is at the point where you can level from lvl1 to all the way to 50 100% naked and you can even be a tank in Normal dungeons like that because it does not matter LOL just slot you self sustain skills your spammable aoes and a taunt and weeeeeee mindlessly...Edited by Zordrage on December 29, 2017 12:25AM8 -
Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the game is at the point where you can level from lvl1 to all the way to 50 100% naked and you can even be a tank in Normal dungeons like that because it does not matter LOL just slot you self sustain skills your spammable aoes and a taunt and weeeeeee mindlessly...
Yep, it's why punishing bad play is a must while still being easy so casuals can enjoy the story is a needed.5 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think it's fine where it is. Like there's normal-mode dungeons for a reason, not everything should be instantly fatal. They need to appeal to both the average gamer and the more competitive crowd, and I think their current balancing act is going really well.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster13 -
Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think it's fine where it is. Like there's normal-mode dungeons for a reason, not everything should be instantly fatal. They need to appeal to both the average gamer and the more competitive crowd, and I think their current balancing act is going really well.
It goes a long way to teach players on their early stages the basics of not standing on stupid... or you get players that blame the healer for their own mistakes.
If the average gamer likes the game enough and wants to delve into endgame, suddenly they learn bashing and other mechanics matter.Edited by Aliyavana on December 29, 2017 1:03AM6 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This SO much.
"Guys, you gotta bash this mechanic or we die. - How do I bash?" *facepalm*8 -
Aisle9✭✭✭✭✭
✭This SO much.
"Guys, you gotta bash this mechanic or we die. - How do I bash?" *facepalm*
Triggers PTSD from Yokeda Kai...I think it's fine where it is. Like there's normal-mode dungeons for a reason, not everything should be instantly fatal. They need to appeal to both the average gamer and the more competitive crowd, and I think their current balancing act is going really well.
Except when the average gamer proceeds to demand an easy mode for veteran dungeons and trials because they don't have access to content...
Artemis Absinthe - DC magicka nightblade (PC - EU)
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In the Game of PuGs you win or you ragequit
"Dip dip potato chip, dip dip potato chip"2 -
Houshiki✭✭✭✭
Tell that to Xal-Nur, and the stupids deeps that ignore the spice and continue dpsing while the boss is invulnerable...4 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
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Tell that to Xal-Nur, and the stupids deeps that ignore the spice and continue dpsing while the boss is invulnerable...
ignoring the last one (and maybe even the 2nd) is entirely possible...Noobplar1 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Red telegraphs and knockbacks should mean something... such things are fatal in pvp and endgame pvp and then tickling only breeds players that stand in stupid and proceed to blame their healers for not being able to heal through a one shot. So encouraging learning to block, bash, and not to stand in stupid is a nice compromise as the average player is likely to kill the mob before seeing these mechanics anyway.
It does mean something. You just said so. When people go into vet dungeons and PvP, they get crushed for standing in red. I’m thinking your expecting people to be experts at the content the first time they do it, which seems unrealistic.
Level a new character without CPs. There’s a significant difference in the level of difficulty.5 -
N00BxV1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Telegraphed attacks should also work properly. For example: boss shows a charge telegraph to the left but then charges to the right, or shows telegraph after the actual attack. Doesn't happen all the time but it has happened enough to be annoying.
PS: It could be lag because my ping in-game is usually 80-100ms. Outside of the game it's 4-5 times less...Edited by N00BxV1 on December 29, 2017 2:16PM5 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Red telegraphs and knockbacks should mean something... such things are fatal in pvp and endgame pvp and then tickling only breeds players that stand in stupid and proceed to blame their healers for not being able to heal through a one shot. So encouraging learning to block, bash, and not to stand in stupid is a nice compromise as the average player is likely to kill the mob before seeing these mechanics anyway.
It does mean something. You just said so. When people go into vet dungeons and PvP, they get crushed for standing in red. I’m thinking your expecting people to be experts at the content the first time they do it, which seems unrealistic.
Level a new character without CPs. There’s a significant difference in the level of difficulty.
I think the problem is that players are being trained to suck at the game (ignoring the entire ability to bash, standing in all red AoE, dealing like 3K or less DPS, etc). Then they go to a Vet dungeon and get completely slaughtered by the first set of mobs at any CP level and complain because they want monster sets. Leads to a bad experience.
There is no difficulty inbetween Overland/Normal dungeon difficulty which is abysmally easy stand still+light attack to win gameplay and Vet where you need to build with good sets and understand mechanics/play a role decently. It’s a massive gap. No training exists in this game for you to cross the gap between the skill level of a new player and that of someone who understands how to bash, move out of AoE, deal okay damage, etc. Also lots of essential info about stats and status effects is not found in the game itself! ESO is horrible at helping the player learn.
It’s one thing for content to be made for new players.... but it’s another thing entirely when you can run around naked with a sword under-leveled at 0CP and beat every Overland quest/delve with one heal slotted.....Edited by Vaoh on December 29, 2017 2:44PM12 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Red telegraphs and knockbacks should mean something... such things are fatal in pvp and endgame pvp and then tickling only breeds players that stand in stupid and proceed to blame their healers for not being able to heal through a one shot. So encouraging learning to block, bash, and not to stand in stupid is a nice compromise as the average player is likely to kill the mob before seeing these mechanics anyway.
It does mean something. You just said so. When people go into vet dungeons and PvP, they get crushed for standing in red. I’m thinking your expecting people to be experts at the content the first time they do it, which seems unrealistic.
Level a new character without CPs. There’s a significant difference in the level of difficulty.
I think the problem is that players are being trained to suck at the game (ignoring the entire ability to bash, standing in all red AoE, dealing like 3K or less DPS, etc). Then they go to a Vet dungeon and get completely slaughtered by the first set of mobs at any CP level and complain because they want monster sets. Leads to a bad experience.
There is no difficulty inbetween Overland/Normal dungeon difficulty which is abysmally easy stand still+light attack to win gameplay and Vet where you need to build with good sets and understand mechanics/play a role decently. It’s a massive gap. No training exists in this game for you to cross the gap between the skill level of a new player and that of someone who understands how to bash, move out of AoE, deal okay damage, etc. Also lots of essential info about stats and status effects is not found in the game itself! ESO is horrible at helping the player learn.
It’s one thing for content to be made for new players.... but it’s another thing entirely when you can run around naked with a sword under-leveled at 0CP and beat every Overland quest/delve with one heal slotted.....
This is spot on...listen to this guy, even if some don't like it...he's totally right...Noobplar0 -
Dawnblade✭✭✭✭✭Red telegraphs and knockbacks should mean something... such things are fatal in pvp and endgame pvp and then tickling only breeds players that stand in stupid and proceed to blame their healers for not being able to heal through a one shot. So encouraging learning to block, bash, and not to stand in stupid is a nice compromise as the average player is likely to kill the mob before seeing these mechanics anyway.
It does mean something. You just said so. When people go into vet dungeons and PvP, they get crushed for standing in red. I’m thinking your expecting people to be experts at the content the first time they do it, which seems unrealistic.
Level a new character without CPs. There’s a significant difference in the level of difficulty.
Leveling without CP and random quest gear is a slog - especially in the early game where ESO feels more like a cheap hack and slash than a AAA MMORPG.
It isn't super difficult, but it certainly feels like a slog.Red telegraphs and knockbacks should mean something... such things are fatal in pvp and endgame pvp and then tickling only breeds players that stand in stupid and proceed to blame their healers for not being able to heal through a one shot. So encouraging learning to block, bash, and not to stand in stupid is a nice compromise as the average player is likely to kill the mob before seeing these mechanics anyway.
It does mean something. You just said so. When people go into vet dungeons and PvP, they get crushed for standing in red. I’m thinking your expecting people to be experts at the content the first time they do it, which seems unrealistic.
Level a new character without CPs. There’s a significant difference in the level of difficulty.
I think the problem is that players are being trained to suck at the game (ignoring the entire ability to bash, standing in all red AoE, dealing like 3K or less DPS, etc). Then they go to a Vet dungeon and get completely slaughtered by the first set of mobs at any CP level and complain because they want monster sets. Leads to a bad experience.
There is no difficulty inbetween Overland/Normal dungeon difficulty which is abysmally easy stand still+light attack to win gameplay and Vet where you need to build with good sets and understand mechanics/play a role decently. It’s a massive gap. No training exists in this game for you to cross the gap between the skill level of a new player and that of someone who understands how to bash, move out of AoE, deal okay damage, etc. Also lots of essential info about stats and status effects is not found in the game itself! ESO is horrible at helping the player learn.
It’s one thing for content to be made for new players.... but it’s another thing entirely when you can run around naked with a sword under-leveled at 0CP and beat every Overland quest/delve with one heal slotted.....
This is a bit of hyperbole.
A player with 0 CP is going to do far less damage than a max CP character, even with a full set of enchanted set bonus gear (which they most likely will not have), while taking significantly more damage, and burning through resources much sooner.
That isn't to say that the general leveling / overland part of the game is hard, nor that it might not be possible to level up naked with 0 CP, but to say you can level up naked with 0 CP while just LOL'ing through all non Vet content and such is a bit exaggerated
The issue I see is that the developers have to push top end content to a high difficulty level to deliver any kind of challenge to players with max CP, full gold set gear with gold enchants, quaffing potions, using max stat food, and having a lot of experience with the game, while simultaneously setting the difficulty level for the base / quest / leveling content such that a new player with 0 CP using random gear hacking around with a 2H can progress.
Unless they narrow the power / performance gap between max CP players with BIS gear using every boost item with meta builds and new players with no CP, using random gear and random skills, and / or bring back the idea of progressively difficult zones (which they removed in 1T), we will continue to have a large gap in the difficulty between content designed to be accessible for new players (which is like all of the overworld post 1T) and that designed for vets.
Edited by Dawnblade on December 29, 2017 3:06PM2 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Red telegraphs and knockbacks should mean something... such things are fatal in pvp and endgame pvp and then tickling only breeds players that stand in stupid and proceed to blame their healers for not being able to heal through a one shot. So encouraging learning to block, bash, and not to stand in stupid is a nice compromise as the average player is likely to kill the mob before seeing these mechanics anyway.
It does mean something. You just said so. When people go into vet dungeons and PvP, they get crushed for standing in red. I’m thinking your expecting people to be experts at the content the first time they do it, which seems unrealistic.
Level a new character without CPs. There’s a significant difference in the level of difficulty.
Leveling without CP and random quest gear is a slog - especially in the early game where ESO feels more like a cheap hack and slash than a AAA MMORPG.
It isn't super difficult, but it certainly feels like a slog.Red telegraphs and knockbacks should mean something... such things are fatal in pvp and endgame pvp and then tickling only breeds players that stand in stupid and proceed to blame their healers for not being able to heal through a one shot. So encouraging learning to block, bash, and not to stand in stupid is a nice compromise as the average player is likely to kill the mob before seeing these mechanics anyway.
It does mean something. You just said so. When people go into vet dungeons and PvP, they get crushed for standing in red. I’m thinking your expecting people to be experts at the content the first time they do it, which seems unrealistic.
Level a new character without CPs. There’s a significant difference in the level of difficulty.
I think the problem is that players are being trained to suck at the game (ignoring the entire ability to bash, standing in all red AoE, dealing like 3K or less DPS, etc). Then they go to a Vet dungeon and get completely slaughtered by the first set of mobs at any CP level and complain because they want monster sets. Leads to a bad experience.
There is no difficulty inbetween Overland/Normal dungeon difficulty which is abysmally easy stand still+light attack to win gameplay and Vet where you need to build with good sets and understand mechanics/play a role decently. It’s a massive gap. No training exists in this game for you to cross the gap between the skill level of a new player and that of someone who understands how to bash, move out of AoE, deal okay damage, etc. Also lots of essential info about stats and status effects is not found in the game itself! ESO is horrible at helping the player learn.
It’s one thing for content to be made for new players.... but it’s another thing entirely when you can run around naked with a sword under-leveled at 0CP and beat every Overland quest/delve with one heal slotted.....
This is a bit of hyperbole.
A player with 0 CP is going to do far less damage than a max CP character, even with a full set of enchanted set bonus gear (which they most likely will not have), while taking significantly more damage, and burning through resources much sooner.
That isn't to say that the general leveling / overland part of the game is hard, nor that it might not be possible to level up naked with 0 CP, but to say you can level up naked with 0 CP while just LOL'ing through all non Vet content and such is a bit exaggerated
The issue I see is that the developers have to push top end content to a high difficulty level to deliver any kind of challenge to players with max CP, full gold set gear with gold enchants, quaffing potions, using max stat food, and having a lot of experience with the game, while simultaneously setting the difficulty level for the base / quest / leveling content such that a new player with 0 CP using random gear hacking around with a 2H can progress.
Unless they narrow the power / performance gap between max CP players with BIS gear using every boost item with meta builds and new players with no CP, using random gear and random skills, and / or bring back the idea of progressively difficult zones (which they removed in 1T), we will continue to have a large gap in the difficulty between content designed to be accessible for new players (which is like all of the overworld post 1T) and that designed for vets.
Nope, not hyperbole. Have you tried it? You really can beat it that way. It’s that easy. There’s very little Overland/delve content you can’t beat that way and I can tell you because I already tried it on every class for laughs.
Problem isn’t how strong gear can make you lol. It’s 100% a L2P issue. The problem is that ZOS make no effort at all to help and actually reinforces bad habits and playing poorly over the course of your entire experience in ESO..... until reaching Vet content where players need to know everything the game failed to teach you.6 -
Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Red telegraphs and knockbacks should mean something... such things are fatal in pvp and endgame pvp and then tickling only breeds players that stand in stupid and proceed to blame their healers for not being able to heal through a one shot. So encouraging learning to block, bash, and not to stand in stupid is a nice compromise as the average player is likely to kill the mob before seeing these mechanics anyway.
It does mean something. You just said so. When people go into vet dungeons and PvP, they get crushed for standing in red. I’m thinking your expecting people to be experts at the content the first time they do it, which seems unrealistic.
Level a new character without CPs. There’s a significant difference in the level of difficulty.
I always label without cps, but then not being experts doesn't accuse them from learning from their mistakes early on0 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Red telegraphs and knockbacks should mean something... such things are fatal in pvp and endgame pvp and then tickling only breeds players that stand in stupid and proceed to blame their healers for not being able to heal through a one shot. So encouraging learning to block, bash, and not to stand in stupid is a nice compromise as the average player is likely to kill the mob before seeing these mechanics anyway.
It does mean something. You just said so. When people go into vet dungeons and PvP, they get crushed for standing in red. I’m thinking your expecting people to be experts at the content the first time they do it, which seems unrealistic.
Level a new character without CPs. There’s a significant difference in the level of difficulty.
I did and I can confirm you can heavy attack everything to death with 0 cp and in underleveled gear while standing in red. Okay, maybe while also having 1 heal/shield slotted. The other 9 skill slots are not needed. It takes longer and soloing WB is an actual challenge, but that's about it.
I don't think anyone here believes ESO should teach fresh level 3s how to do endgame rotations and why Lover Munsuds beats Apprentice in solo scenarios but Apprentice(or whichever it was) is better for Trials due to penetration cap already being reached there. But the game SHOULD teach them SOMETHING. The very basics of the game - red is bad, attacks with interrupt cue can and should be bashed, you can dodge things, you need aoe to deal with multiple enemies, food will help you survive longer, your skills scale with the stat they cost(max stam/mag, which is super unobvious for many people), etc...currently it doesn't.
I do actually enjoy teaching new people, and I do think we should help each other out, but I don't think it should be players' job to explain what an interrupt cue looks like, how to bash, why you shouldn't stand in red and why Jesus Beam does crap damage on a stamina build despite looking cool. This isn't some complicated dungeon mechanics, it's the damn BASICS of the game.Edited by Magdalina on December 29, 2017 7:25PM4 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I do understand what the OP is saying but I actually groaned when I read this.Red telegraphs and knockbacks should mean something...
Making players step out of red circles has become the gold standard of modern MMO combat design.
Am I only the one bored by this? And mystified. Am I psychic? How the %^&* do I know where all of those aoes are going to land?3 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the game is at the point where you can level from lvl1 to all the way to 50 100% naked and you can even be a tank in Normal dungeons like that because it does not matter LOL just slot you self sustain skills your spammable aoes and a taunt and weeeeeee mindlessly...
and yet we still have trouble finding tanks...0 -
Esha76✭✭✭✭✭I've been with this game since beta. My very first character, a Stamina Nightblade, played right through Cadwells Gold in the VR zones shortly after launch. At that time, standing in red in overland, was certain death. At least for a medium armor Stamblade.
Today... such as a troll ground pound for example... I just stand there and take it. Maybe... maybe I'll be down 25% health at the end of the fight. Granted she is much better geared. But still, I'm not opposed to red being a little more painful."There is no moisture in your angry stares." - Laughs-at-All
"I don't know why I bother guarding you horrible people." - Orama Sadas
"Scales here is about to have a really bad day..." - Valeric
"Just tell me what you're doing here before I turn your heart into a tomato..." - Sereyne
"Break those rocks! Dig those ditches! Why??? Because I want you to!!!" - Ifriz the Unraveller
"There are worse masters than I. Far worse." - Molag Bal
"I humiliated the Daedra in Mehrunes Spite." - You, when turning in a specific Undaunted Daily.
"I'm not finding you very pleasant!" - Adla the Brewer
"Old Ri'hirr likes his birds slow and stupid!" - Old Ri'hirr
"When things get dirty... Oh, I get so flustered." - Meredil the Archivist
"Too many Argonians about these days..." - Davon's Watch Guard (though I think this one has been removed from game)0 -
Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭i agree with this...a red telegraphed attack should do a lot more damage - honestly in overland i don't even care and just stay where i am.... i think a red telegraph should basically cut 60% HP of a non cp player and somewhere take 35% if youre geared / cp'ed upEdited by Nemesis7884 on December 30, 2017 4:30AM0 -
Bryanonymous✭✭✭✭✭Am I only the one bored by this? And mystified. Am I psychic? How the %^&* do I know where all of those aoes are going to land?
Great point. Like making us jump through hoops instead of actually having to have a little foresight. I tried turning all red tells off a long time ago. Some of them just won’t go away.Edited by Bryanonymous on December 30, 2017 5:03AM0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭every time I see people in these threads talk about how they just heavy attack everything to death while standing in red with zero cp, I have to wonder if we are playing the same game. becasue i most certainly HAVE to move out of the red in overland content, while having cp allocated, OR die. I mean, yeah, i can kill things with heavy attacks. but I cannot just stand there and not move, not interrupt, etc while doing that. and I absolutely positively cannot do it but with the easiest of mobs without any cp/random quest gear.
so are you all skilled players SURE you are playing in a way that new player would? or are you responding to mechanics and attacking more efficiently without even realizing that you are doing it, becasue its so ingrained?dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭every time I see people in these threads talk about how they just heavy attack everything to death while standing in red with zero cp, I have to wonder if we are playing the same game. becasue i most certainly HAVE to move out of the red in overland content, while having cp allocated, OR die. I mean, yeah, i can kill things with heavy attacks. but I cannot just stand there and not move, not interrupt, etc while doing that. and I absolutely positively cannot do it but with the easiest of mobs without any cp/random quest gear.
so are you all skilled players SURE you are playing in a way that new player would? or are you responding to mechanics and attacking more efficiently without even realizing that you are doing it, becasue its so ingrained?
are you running a rp build?0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭every time I see people in these threads talk about how they just heavy attack everything to death while standing in red with zero cp, I have to wonder if we are playing the same game. becasue i most certainly HAVE to move out of the red in overland content, while having cp allocated, OR die. I mean, yeah, i can kill things with heavy attacks. but I cannot just stand there and not move, not interrupt, etc while doing that. and I absolutely positively cannot do it but with the easiest of mobs without any cp/random quest gear.
so are you all skilled players SURE you are playing in a way that new player would? or are you responding to mechanics and attacking more efficiently without even realizing that you are doing it, becasue its so ingrained?
are you running a rp build?
no.
the only characters that can stand in red that I have? are tanks. everyone else has to move or suffer the consequences. even my sorc's shields run out after a few seconds.
maybe if you pull one mob at a time or something, though they are never just one at a time in delves, etc, they are usually in groups. I have NEVER been able to stand in red. I have seen dps stand in red in dungeons and cursed them and this is THE main reason why I dislike that there is no triage in this game. its very difficult to selectively let people die on purpose, so that they learn not to stand in bad. in Vet, I often cannot heal through red anyways, but in normal, just residual smart healing keeps them up. maybe that's what you mean about red meaning something? solo though, it very much does mean something.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
monktoasty✭✭✭✭✭You mean those things that are spammed by enemies and on consoles you can not see them all and extremely hard to dodge? No thanks0
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Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Honestly,
It's probably only top tier who get away with this. We are sitting on a lot of champion points and having them allocated to highest potential. Not to mention self healing... it's really a question why should we get out of stupid.
Problem: we are out growing game play.
Soultion: ...Edited by Tasear on December 30, 2017 9:45AM0 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Honestly,
It's probably only top tier who get away with this. We are sitting on a lot of champion points and having them allocated to highest potential. Not yo mention self healing... it's really a question why should we get out of stupid.
Problem: we are out growing game play.
Soultion: ...
Even on a new Character without CP you don't have o care about AoEs in open world....that's the real problem. New players just learn: Ignore red, it doesn't do anything...Noobplar2
