Eye of Flame/Vicious Death "zergs". Thoughts?

Raudgrani

I'm on Xbox EU.

Originally, I liked the idea of Vicious Death. it was a nice "anti zerg" tool, though I never really tried it myself. These days, it's more or less run IN (front of) zergs. We have these 1-2 full groups, with like 5-10 people running various kind of bomber builds, constantly rushing back and forth dropping Eye of Flame etc. It's becoming quite repetitive, and it more or less forced me to start using my Stamblade, with whom I don't do much more than "snipe stacking" (of course, I get hate messages about being a scrub and what not, from said Eye-of-Flame-junkies).

This is how you make nerfs come through, really. By over using (and more or less exploiting) a certain kind of setup. Sure, it might be fun and exciting to be especially cautious and look for these guys hidden while you fix doors etc., but when it becomes their one and only strategy? Seriously? Sure, "randoms" still play as we all used to, but the regulars seem to have went into complete "bomber frenzy", it's like there's no other way for these guys to play anymore. What we get are boring standoffs, where we (EP) do nothing but spam ranged attacks, at the AD (primarily, but also DC), while they rush back and forth trying the same thing over and over again. We usually find these guys going "tower farming" as well, with no real intentions to actually play the game. As more and more people don't fall for that, they seem to be getting more into the game again. But nevertheless.

What's your thoughts about this? It's starting to become quite boring, and this is one of the few times I actually call for something to be done. Eventually, we will end up with everyone just doing this thing, and really - what's the fun in that?

Sharee

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/382660/the-current-destro-pain-train-meta-needs-to-die/p1

Raudgrani

Sharee wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/382660/the-current-destro-pain-train-meta-needs-to-die/p1

AH, missed that one looking for topics on this. Thank you.

altemriel

not sure, as I am only PVEer, but in my opinion, bomber builds are a regular tactics, why not? the same as stealth ganker builds or sniper builds

Raudgrani

altemriel wrote: »

not sure, as I am only PVEer, but in my opinion, bomber builds are a regular tactics, why not? the same as stealth ganker builds or sniper builds

You answer the question yourself, you're a PVE'er. This is become the meta, magblades and a few sorcs and DK's running this setup. First off, it becomes really, really boring. And secondly, it's death for any kind of build diversity. It's ridiculously over powered, and creates a very repetitive kind of experience. I was fine with it, when this was an occasional appearance. But when you know like 10-15 gamer tags, that are your only real enemies in the whole of Cyrodiil, and when your only chance to survive is to kill them by (as in my case) snipe stacking. Yeah, very funny.

And no, I really don't die often from these myself anymore. I keep my distance, and roll dodge and sprint away (Hasty Retreat passive) 9,8/10 of the time until they die or their ultimate has run out. In fact, I die perhaps 1-2 times on a 4-5 hour session these days, because how monotonous the gameplay has become. I snipe stack, dodge away, and snipe stack. That's about it.

It's all about that same thing now. Only if you go solo and cowardly assault single or a few players traveling between fights, you'll get anything resembling what I'm used to and like about Cyrodiil. But I want to play the game, not "solo" like this. It was a social game to me.

Didgerion

I mentioned this in other related post.

We need a skill or siege or trap that works as Shrouded Daggers(hidden blade morph) but with much more loops. And it would inta-kill players after the 10th loop for example.
The ball groups meta would instantly disappear.

Raudgrani

Didgerion wrote: »

I mentioned this in other related post.

We need a skill or siege or trap that works as Shrouded Daggers(hidden blade morph) but with much more loops. And it would inta-kill players after the 10th loop for example.
The ball groups meta would instantly disappear.

I'm sure that would work, and I'm sure people would find a way to exploit that too, in a similar fashion. It kind of saddens me, that people who really are good players stick to these kind of builds and strategies. I used to love seeing their names, and engage them. These days I'm like "Hmmm, let's see if there's some other fight at the other side of the map?" instead. But people are people, if there's a way of doing things like these - they will. So something needs to be done, it's really killing PVP right now.

Dasovaruilos

There were a few posts about this recently... And yes, this meta needs to die.

It is completely killing the fun out of PvP.

It is not uncommon now to be killed instantly by 5, 6, 7 Destro ultis layered by big groups...

I'd love for the Destro ulti to get the old Caltrops treatment and not be stackable. It would still be powerful enough to spread groups, and to finish people already damaged in a big fight, but it would be the end-all-be-all-so-far-ahead-of-anything-else that it currently is.

Rianai

I see a lot more meteors, soul assaults, dawnbreakers, incaps, bow ultis and dk leaps than destro ults. Maybe because the latter isn't as good for Xvs1 ...

EotS is only really good in organized groups in combination with other skills and against a large amount of (not so organized) enemies. On its own it doesn't do much. Even multiple Storms cast at once aren't much of an issue if those players don't have coordination and support from other players.
VD is a great anti zerg tool. Yes, it can and is used by zergs too, but it is still only useful if those zergs are fighting other zergs.
Both EotS and VD aren't the main reason, why organized ball groups are hard to deal with for unorganized zergs (which seems to be your main issue - and no, snipe spamming is certainly not the best way to counter those). It has more something to do with - surprise - their organisation. And a lot of different skills. EotS is just the most obvious one. Visually.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

The problem in Cryodiil is not because of a certain meta players are using, ie. VD bomber, desto train, etc. The problem is with the attitude a lot, and I mean A LOT of people in Cryodiil have. The are there for the AP, and could not care less about the out come of the campaign. Many people just stay in Cryodiil long enough to grind out vigor and caltrops skills and then they're gone. Others are there to farm AP so they can buy motifs and popular armor sets to turn around and sell them on guild vendors for profit. So while many of the annoying metas people are using may not be the fastest way to earn AP, they certainly are the brain dead easiest. Unfortunately I don't see it changing unless ZOS decided you only get AP for winning a campaign. And then Cryodiil would become even more of an empty barren wasteland then it already is.

Rianai

The brain dead easiest way to farm AP is to flip undefended (or barely defended) keeps and resources. And repairing.

Raudgrani

CalmFury wrote: »

There were a few posts about this recently... And yes, this meta needs to die.

It is completely killing the fun out of PvP.

It is not uncommon now to be killed instantly by 5, 6, 7 Destro ultis layered by big groups...

I'd love for the Destro ulti to get the old Caltrops treatment and not be stackable. It would still be powerful enough to spread groups, and to finish people already damaged in a big fight, but it would be the end-all-be-all-so-far-ahead-of-anything-else that it currently is.

If I'm not misinformed, it doesn't stack already. But when you run different staves and morphs, it obviously does stack. Other than that, I agree fully. It's a nice skill, but used in a very nasty way now, which ruins the game.

Ragnarock41

An AOE as strong as EOTS shouldn't be moving around. Simple as that.
Why does it exist then? because PvE focused game.

It came to the point that being a coordinated group means you have %90 of your raid magNB bombers, occasional magsorc for negate, a stam toon for spamming rapid non stop, and a few healers.
This is what ''coordinated raids'' are all about now.

Raudgrani

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

The problem in Cryodiil is not because of a certain meta players are using, ie. VD bomber, desto train, etc. The problem is with the attitude a lot, and I mean A LOT of people in Cryodiil have. The are there for the AP, and could not care less about the out come of the campaign. Many people just stay in Cryodiil long enough to grind out vigor and caltrops skills and then they're gone. Others are there to farm AP so they can buy motifs and popular armor sets to turn around and sell them on guild vendors for profit. So while many of the annoying metas people are using may not be the fastest way to earn AP, they certainly are the brain dead easiest. Unfortunately I don't see it changing unless ZOS decided you only get AP for winning a campaign. And then Cryodiil would become even more of an empty barren wasteland then it already is.

Rianai wrote: »

I see a lot more meteors, soul assaults, dawnbreakers, incaps, bow ultis and dk leaps than destro ults. Maybe because the latter isn't as good for Xvs1 ...

EotS is only really good in organized groups in combination with other skills and against a large amount of (not so organized) enemies. On its own it doesn't do much. Even multiple Storms cast at once aren't much of an issue if those players don't have coordination and support from other players.
VD is a great anti zerg tool. Yes, it can and is used by zergs too, but it is still only useful if those zergs are fighting other zergs.
Both EotS and VD aren't the main reason, why organized ball groups are hard to deal with for unorganized zergs (which seems to be your main issue - and no, snipe spamming is certainly not the best way to counter those). It has more something to do with - surprise - their organisation. And a lot of different skills. EotS is just the most obvious one. Visually.

Their organisation is basically: "Stand in a doorway/tower/bridgehead, build ultimate, drop barrier, drop several destro ultis and spam sap essence and proximity detonations (etc.) while rushing forward, get killed, be revived, build ultimate.... (repeat)". There's not much more to it, really. They rarely wipe an entire team, but keep doing this to farm ap. It's becoming really boring in the long run.

And what do you suggest should be done as a "surprise" to a group such as this? I am genuinely curious (I mean, you might have a good idea). As I've written already, I have taken down these "bombers" like 2-10 times over and over again in fights such as these, but it's hard to prevent them from being resurrected when they have a handful of healers and tanks picking them up over and over again. And don't say "get the healers", it would just prove you have no clue what you are talking about. If they stand in a breached postern door doing this, it isn't like you can even see them - or get past the +20 people standing in the breach either. It's foul play, and they don't give a f**k about the campaign or anything else but doing their thing.

Rianai

I don't really understand what your issue is.

Ball groups turtle up inside a tower? Ignore them. They farm AP? Why care? YOU dont need to donate them AP ... Their playstyle is boring? YOU don't have to play like this ... Players get ressed after dieing? Well, that will always happen if you face multiple players and can't wipe them all at once. Take away EotS and VD and nothing of those points will change.

VaranisArano

It happens because not all zergs are equal.

There's the "zerg" made up of disorganized or loosely grouped players and then there's the organized raid "zerg." (I tend to be stingy with what I call a zerg. For me, a zerg is one or more organized raids +PUGs)

Any tool that you give to players to deal with the zerg of disorganized or loosely grouped players is going to be wildly successful. Vicious Death. Eye of Flame. Proxy Det. Then, that tool will get picked up by the organized raid and used far more effectively than you thought possible because its being wielded by a bunch of people in an organized manner.

Hence, we arrive at the current meta. Organized groups, balling up and throwing eye of the flame and other ultimates, wearing vicious death, then running away with Earthgore to cover their behinds while they wait for their ultimates to recharge again. (You can't forget the Earthgore, that's the set that carries them when another organized raid tries to kill them with the same maneuver.)

So the problem with dealing with these groups becomes that no skill added to the game is going to remove the organization that allows them to use those skills effectively. Whatever skills you add to the game to deal with them, an organized raid will use right back at you. IDK, add a massive bomb skill that can only be used by a single player and you can bet that raid will have someone running solo with them just to use that massive bomb. Worse, you can't even nerf what they use to heal because their healers can compensate better than their less organized opponents. (Actually, ZOS, if you're listening, Earthgore could really use a nerf. But you won't because HotR is still too new and a cash cow.)

There's not really a solution when the root of the problem is an organized raid figured out something that works really well and is going to use it until ZOS decides they don't want that meta anymore and removes the pieces that make it possible. And then the organized raid moves onto something else as soon as they figure out the next most effective tactic.

Didgerion

Raudgrani wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

I mentioned this in other related post.

We need a skill or siege or trap that works as Shrouded Daggers(hidden blade morph) but with much more loops. And it would inta-kill players after the 10th loop for example.
The ball groups meta would instantly disappear.

I'm sure that would work, and I'm sure people would find a way to exploit that too, in a similar fashion. It kind of saddens me, that people who really are good players stick to these kind of builds and strategies. I used to love seeing their names, and engage them. These days I'm like "Hmmm, let's see if there's some other fight at the other side of the map?" instead. But people are people, if there's a way of doing things like these - they will. So something needs to be done, it's really killing PVP right now.

Depends how you look at it and what you play.
Yeas it is frustrating that this kind of groups don't get punished and they earn way to much AP for spamming AOE skills and heals and following the crown.

On the other hand it is fun to kill the players that fall behind - or the "super-heros" that are chasing you.
But you have to play a range class with good escape capabilities in case the gorup is focused on you - I'm playing mag sorc and getting some fun out of those groups. But still frustration is there that most players go away with ton of AP just for following the train.

Raudgrani

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

An AOE as strong as EOTS shouldn't be moving around. Simple as that.
Why does it exist then? because PvE focused game.

It came to the point that being a coordinated group means you have %90 of your raid magNB bombers, occasional magsorc for negate, a stam toon for spamming rapid non stop, and a few healers.
This is what ''coordinated raids'' are all about now.

That's exactly right. It's not only about negate, the death is so fast that you can't even use Vigor either. It's too slow. It's quite a thing to take down such a "flame train". At least on my server, these doesn

Rianai wrote: »

I see a lot more meteors, soul assaults, dawnbreakers, incaps, bow ultis and dk leaps than destro ults. Maybe because the latter isn't as good for Xvs1 ...

EotS is only really good in organized groups in combination with other skills and against a large amount of (not so organized) enemies. On its own it doesn't do much. Even multiple Storms cast at once aren't much of an issue if those players don't have coordination and support from other players.
VD is a great anti zerg tool. Yes, it can and is used by zergs too, but it is still only useful if those zergs are fighting other zergs.
Both EotS and VD aren't the main reason, why organized ball groups are hard to deal with for unorganized zergs (which seems to be your main issue - and no, snipe spamming is certainly not the best way to counter those). It has more something to do with - surprise - their organisation. And a lot of different skills. EotS is just the most obvious one. Visually.

I run with a couple of the strongest groups on XBOX EU server, but to be fair - we don't have much discipline or strategy. Everyone does their own thing, those who are "in the know" stick to some certain other players for better group dynamics. We have healers, and a natural occurrence of everything necessary.

Rianai wrote: »

I don't really understand what your issue is.

Ball groups turtle up inside a tower? Ignore them. They farm AP? Why care? YOU dont need to donate them AP ... Their playstyle is boring? YOU don't have to play like this ... Players get ressed after dieing? Well, that will always happen if you face multiple players and can't wipe them all at once. Take away EotS and VD and nothing of those points will change.

Most often, it seems that they are being ignored nowadays. But as they realize that their "you-can't-catch-me" games are becoming less popular, they start to turtle up in strategic locations too. Most often some final emp keep, of course. Only thing that matters, is that a certain color doesn't get emp. No matter if they don't even have their own home keeps anymore. Farming ap seems more interesting.

I came to think of a solution for this, and most other bad player behavior: Put a time limit on resurrects. Same as for spawning at a forward camps. After one resurrect, you'd be forced to spawn in a keep (or forward camp), or wait until the time has passed.
For example "tower farmers" these destro ulti/vd groups would be gone overnight. I'd rather see that than these constant nerfs all the time. It's frustrating when really good sets are destroyed one after another, just because of things like these.

Drakkdjinn

These sorts of groups are common but much, much less common & frustrating to deal with than the factionstack faceroll true zergs that this playstyle is designed to engage. You'd see fewer of them if the pvp player base was less content with holding hands in piles of 30+ players to "pvp".

VaranisArano

Raudgrani wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

An AOE as strong as EOTS shouldn't be moving around. Simple as that.
Why does it exist then? because PvE focused game.

It came to the point that being a coordinated group means you have %90 of your raid magNB bombers, occasional magsorc for negate, a stam toon for spamming rapid non stop, and a few healers.
This is what ''coordinated raids'' are all about now.

That's exactly right. It's not only about negate, the death is so fast that you can't even use Vigor either. It's too slow. It's quite a thing to take down such a "flame train". At least on my server, these doesn

Rianai wrote: »

I see a lot more meteors, soul assaults, dawnbreakers, incaps, bow ultis and dk leaps than destro ults. Maybe because the latter isn't as good for Xvs1 ...

EotS is only really good in organized groups in combination with other skills and against a large amount of (not so organized) enemies. On its own it doesn't do much. Even multiple Storms cast at once aren't much of an issue if those players don't have coordination and support from other players.
VD is a great anti zerg tool. Yes, it can and is used by zergs too, but it is still only useful if those zergs are fighting other zergs.
Both EotS and VD aren't the main reason, why organized ball groups are hard to deal with for unorganized zergs (which seems to be your main issue - and no, snipe spamming is certainly not the best way to counter those). It has more something to do with - surprise - their organisation. And a lot of different skills. EotS is just the most obvious one. Visually.

I run with a couple of the strongest groups on XBOX EU server, but to be fair - we don't have much discipline or strategy. Everyone does their own thing, those who are "in the know" stick to some certain other players for better group dynamics. We have healers, and a natural occurrence of everything necessary.

Rianai wrote: »

I don't really understand what your issue is.

Ball groups turtle up inside a tower? Ignore them. They farm AP? Why care? YOU dont need to donate them AP ... Their playstyle is boring? YOU don't have to play like this ... Players get ressed after dieing? Well, that will always happen if you face multiple players and can't wipe them all at once. Take away EotS and VD and nothing of those points will change.

Most often, it seems that they are being ignored nowadays. But as they realize that their "you-can't-catch-me" games are becoming less popular, they start to turtle up in strategic locations too. Most often some final emp keep, of course. Only thing that matters, is that a certain color doesn't get emp. No matter if they don't even have their own home keeps anymore. Farming ap seems more interesting.

I came to think of a solution for this, and most other bad player behavior: Put a time limit on resurrects. Same as for spawning at a forward camps. After one resurrect, you'd be forced to spawn in a keep (or forward camp), or wait until the time has passed.
For example "tower farmers" these destro ulti/vd groups would be gone overnight. I'd rather see that than these constant nerfs all the time. It's frustrating when really good sets are destroyed one after another, just because of things like these.

Uh, there already is a time limit on forward camps. The first one is free. After that, you are on a five minute timer. If the nearby keep is flagged (one wall below 50%) you can't rez up inside the keep either. That's a pretty integral part of Cyrodiil strategy right there.

If you want to make that more difficult by having the timer start right away or limit rezzing and getting back to the fight, you'll remove a lot of the fluidity of the combat in Cyrodiil and make the horse riding simulator worse. I don't like the ball groups anymore than the rest of you, but I'm not willing to shoot my gameplay in the foot to do it.

Dasovaruilos

Raudgrani wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

An AOE as strong as EOTS shouldn't be moving around. Simple as that.
Why does it exist then? because PvE focused game.

It came to the point that being a coordinated group means you have %90 of your raid magNB bombers, occasional magsorc for negate, a stam toon for spamming rapid non stop, and a few healers.
This is what ''coordinated raids'' are all about now.

That's exactly right. It's not only about negate, the death is so fast that you can't even use Vigor either. It's too slow. It's quite a thing to take down such a "flame train". At least on my server, these doesn

Rianai wrote: »

I see a lot more meteors, soul assaults, dawnbreakers, incaps, bow ultis and dk leaps than destro ults. Maybe because the latter isn't as good for Xvs1 ...

EotS is only really good in organized groups in combination with other skills and against a large amount of (not so organized) enemies. On its own it doesn't do much. Even multiple Storms cast at once aren't much of an issue if those players don't have coordination and support from other players.
VD is a great anti zerg tool. Yes, it can and is used by zergs too, but it is still only useful if those zergs are fighting other zergs.
Both EotS and VD aren't the main reason, why organized ball groups are hard to deal with for unorganized zergs (which seems to be your main issue - and no, snipe spamming is certainly not the best way to counter those). It has more something to do with - surprise - their organisation. And a lot of different skills. EotS is just the most obvious one. Visually.

I run with a couple of the strongest groups on XBOX EU server, but to be fair - we don't have much discipline or strategy. Everyone does their own thing, those who are "in the know" stick to some certain other players for better group dynamics. We have healers, and a natural occurrence of everything necessary.

Rianai wrote: »

I don't really understand what your issue is.

Ball groups turtle up inside a tower? Ignore them. They farm AP? Why care? YOU dont need to donate them AP ... Their playstyle is boring? YOU don't have to play like this ... Players get ressed after dieing? Well, that will always happen if you face multiple players and can't wipe them all at once. Take away EotS and VD and nothing of those points will change.

Most often, it seems that they are being ignored nowadays. But as they realize that their "you-can't-catch-me" games are becoming less popular, they start to turtle up in strategic locations too. Most often some final emp keep, of course. Only thing that matters, is that a certain color doesn't get emp. No matter if they don't even have their own home keeps anymore. Farming ap seems more interesting.

I came to think of a solution for this, and most other bad player behavior: Put a time limit on resurrects. Same as for spawning at a forward camps. After one resurrect, you'd be forced to spawn in a keep (or forward camp), or wait until the time has passed.
For example "tower farmers" these destro ulti/vd groups would be gone overnight. I'd rather see that than these constant nerfs all the time. It's frustrating when really good sets are destroyed one after another, just because of things like these.

Exactly this last part... They now stack on the last Emp keep, or they get the scroll and just keep it until it resets, or flag a keep but doesn't take it and just keep farming people there. Or they break the stairs inside keeps and stay there...

It is not like the old days of tower farming in a resource where you could just ignore them and keep doing the campaign objectives.

At least on Xbox NA it has become VERY common that there is a Destro bomb group in a vital place for those wanting to to the campaign objectives.

Raudgrani

VaranisArano wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

An AOE as strong as EOTS shouldn't be moving around. Simple as that.
Why does it exist then? because PvE focused game.

It came to the point that being a coordinated group means you have %90 of your raid magNB bombers, occasional magsorc for negate, a stam toon for spamming rapid non stop, and a few healers.
This is what ''coordinated raids'' are all about now.

That's exactly right. It's not only about negate, the death is so fast that you can't even use Vigor either. It's too slow. It's quite a thing to take down such a "flame train". At least on my server, these doesn

Rianai wrote: »

I see a lot more meteors, soul assaults, dawnbreakers, incaps, bow ultis and dk leaps than destro ults. Maybe because the latter isn't as good for Xvs1 ...

EotS is only really good in organized groups in combination with other skills and against a large amount of (not so organized) enemies. On its own it doesn't do much. Even multiple Storms cast at once aren't much of an issue if those players don't have coordination and support from other players.
VD is a great anti zerg tool. Yes, it can and is used by zergs too, but it is still only useful if those zergs are fighting other zergs.
Both EotS and VD aren't the main reason, why organized ball groups are hard to deal with for unorganized zergs (which seems to be your main issue - and no, snipe spamming is certainly not the best way to counter those). It has more something to do with - surprise - their organisation. And a lot of different skills. EotS is just the most obvious one. Visually.

I run with a couple of the strongest groups on XBOX EU server, but to be fair - we don't have much discipline or strategy. Everyone does their own thing, those who are "in the know" stick to some certain other players for better group dynamics. We have healers, and a natural occurrence of everything necessary.

Rianai wrote: »

I don't really understand what your issue is.

Ball groups turtle up inside a tower? Ignore them. They farm AP? Why care? YOU dont need to donate them AP ... Their playstyle is boring? YOU don't have to play like this ... Players get ressed after dieing? Well, that will always happen if you face multiple players and can't wipe them all at once. Take away EotS and VD and nothing of those points will change.

Most often, it seems that they are being ignored nowadays. But as they realize that their "you-can't-catch-me" games are becoming less popular, they start to turtle up in strategic locations too. Most often some final emp keep, of course. Only thing that matters, is that a certain color doesn't get emp. No matter if they don't even have their own home keeps anymore. Farming ap seems more interesting.

I came to think of a solution for this, and most other bad player behavior: Put a time limit on resurrects. Same as for spawning at a forward camps. After one resurrect, you'd be forced to spawn in a keep (or forward camp), or wait until the time has passed.
For example "tower farmers" these destro ulti/vd groups would be gone overnight. I'd rather see that than these constant nerfs all the time. It's frustrating when really good sets are destroyed one after another, just because of things like these.

Uh, there already is a time limit on forward camps. The first one is free. After that, you are on a five minute timer. If the nearby keep is flagged (one wall below 50%) you can't rez up inside the keep either. That's a pretty integral part of Cyrodiil strategy right there.

If you want to make that more difficult by having the timer start right away or limit rezzing and getting back to the fight, you'll remove a lot of the fluidity of the combat in Cyrodiil and make the horse riding simulator worse. I don't like the ball groups anymore than the rest of you, but I'm not willing to shoot my gameplay in the foot to do it.

You misunderstood me: Put the same time limit on being resurrected on other players, such as on forward camps. So, basically: You would be able to get resurrected once, and spawn at a forward camp once. I basically thought of that thing defending a keep against both the AD and DC at the same time (who as usual fought side by side), after more than an hour - they managed to breach both postern doors and the front door at the same time, and in they went with destro ulti/vd guys in front. So much for a fair fight.

Had there been such a time limit on resurrects, we would really have had a chance. But when everyone can be resurrected indefinitely, all you can hope for is another group to flank them and kill all of them at the same time. That's pretty flawed to say the least, especially with this new kind of destro kamikaze playstyle.

Edit:
And yes, I understand what you mean. I suppose this would lead to people being more careful, instead of rushing everyone and everything all the time. I.e. a more intelligent and strategic way of playing. They seem to try to take the steam out of the fighting by nerfing all kinds of sets, or by making sustain worse and what not - when what they really should do is, make people more careful of dying in the first place. I suppose it would also lead to a more defensive playstyle, these huge zergs riding around like a swarm of locusts would not be able to move around as freely as before. I dunno, but I really think it's worth considering.

VaranisArano

Raudgrani wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

An AOE as strong as EOTS shouldn't be moving around. Simple as that.
Why does it exist then? because PvE focused game.

It came to the point that being a coordinated group means you have %90 of your raid magNB bombers, occasional magsorc for negate, a stam toon for spamming rapid non stop, and a few healers.
This is what ''coordinated raids'' are all about now.

That's exactly right. It's not only about negate, the death is so fast that you can't even use Vigor either. It's too slow. It's quite a thing to take down such a "flame train". At least on my server, these doesn

Rianai wrote: »

I see a lot more meteors, soul assaults, dawnbreakers, incaps, bow ultis and dk leaps than destro ults. Maybe because the latter isn't as good for Xvs1 ...

EotS is only really good in organized groups in combination with other skills and against a large amount of (not so organized) enemies. On its own it doesn't do much. Even multiple Storms cast at once aren't much of an issue if those players don't have coordination and support from other players.
VD is a great anti zerg tool. Yes, it can and is used by zergs too, but it is still only useful if those zergs are fighting other zergs.
Both EotS and VD aren't the main reason, why organized ball groups are hard to deal with for unorganized zergs (which seems to be your main issue - and no, snipe spamming is certainly not the best way to counter those). It has more something to do with - surprise - their organisation. And a lot of different skills. EotS is just the most obvious one. Visually.

I run with a couple of the strongest groups on XBOX EU server, but to be fair - we don't have much discipline or strategy. Everyone does their own thing, those who are "in the know" stick to some certain other players for better group dynamics. We have healers, and a natural occurrence of everything necessary.

Rianai wrote: »

I don't really understand what your issue is.

Ball groups turtle up inside a tower? Ignore them. They farm AP? Why care? YOU dont need to donate them AP ... Their playstyle is boring? YOU don't have to play like this ... Players get ressed after dieing? Well, that will always happen if you face multiple players and can't wipe them all at once. Take away EotS and VD and nothing of those points will change.

Most often, it seems that they are being ignored nowadays. But as they realize that their "you-can't-catch-me" games are becoming less popular, they start to turtle up in strategic locations too. Most often some final emp keep, of course. Only thing that matters, is that a certain color doesn't get emp. No matter if they don't even have their own home keeps anymore. Farming ap seems more interesting.

I came to think of a solution for this, and most other bad player behavior: Put a time limit on resurrects. Same as for spawning at a forward camps. After one resurrect, you'd be forced to spawn in a keep (or forward camp), or wait until the time has passed.
For example "tower farmers" these destro ulti/vd groups would be gone overnight. I'd rather see that than these constant nerfs all the time. It's frustrating when really good sets are destroyed one after another, just because of things like these.

Uh, there already is a time limit on forward camps. The first one is free. After that, you are on a five minute timer. If the nearby keep is flagged (one wall below 50%) you can't rez up inside the keep either. That's a pretty integral part of Cyrodiil strategy right there.

If you want to make that more difficult by having the timer start right away or limit rezzing and getting back to the fight, you'll remove a lot of the fluidity of the combat in Cyrodiil and make the horse riding simulator worse. I don't like the ball groups anymore than the rest of you, but I'm not willing to shoot my gameplay in the foot to do it.

You misunderstood me: Put the same time limit on being resurrected on other players, such as on forward camps. So, basically: You would be able to get resurrected once, and spawn at a forward camp once. I basically thought of that thing defending a keep against both the AD and DC at the same time (who as usual fought side by side), after more than an hour - they managed to breach both postern doors and the front door at the same time, and in they went with destro ulti/vd guys in front. So much for a fair fight.

Had there been such a time limit on resurrects, we would really have had a chance. But when everyone can be resurrected indefinitely, all you can hope for is another group to flank them and kill all of them at the same time. That's pretty flawed to say the least, especially with this new kind of destro kamikaze playstyle.

Edit:
And yes, I understand what you mean. I suppose this would lead to people being more careful, instead of rushing everyone and everything all the time. I.e. a more intelligent and strategic way of playing. They seem to try to take the steam out of the fighting by nerfing all kinds of sets, or by making sustain worse and what not - when what they really should do is, make people more careful of dying in the first place. I suppose it would also lead to a more defensive playstyle, these huge zergs riding around like a swarm of locusts would not be able to move around as freely as before. I dunno, but I really think it's worth considering.

Now imagine it from the other side. You're a bunch of beleagered defenders. You are whittling down their numbers but they are killing you too. Then a chunk of your players die on the top from siege. You could rez them and get them back up for the defense, but oh no! They're on rez timers. Guess you got screwed.

Access to rezzing as along as another player can get to you is something that works equally in favor of all players. Maybe one day you lose a keep because of it. Maybe one day you save a keep because of it

Raudgrani

VaranisArano wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

An AOE as strong as EOTS shouldn't be moving around. Simple as that.
Why does it exist then? because PvE focused game.

It came to the point that being a coordinated group means you have %90 of your raid magNB bombers, occasional magsorc for negate, a stam toon for spamming rapid non stop, and a few healers.
This is what ''coordinated raids'' are all about now.

That's exactly right. It's not only about negate, the death is so fast that you can't even use Vigor either. It's too slow. It's quite a thing to take down such a "flame train". At least on my server, these doesn

Rianai wrote: »

I see a lot more meteors, soul assaults, dawnbreakers, incaps, bow ultis and dk leaps than destro ults. Maybe because the latter isn't as good for Xvs1 ...

EotS is only really good in organized groups in combination with other skills and against a large amount of (not so organized) enemies. On its own it doesn't do much. Even multiple Storms cast at once aren't much of an issue if those players don't have coordination and support from other players.
VD is a great anti zerg tool. Yes, it can and is used by zergs too, but it is still only useful if those zergs are fighting other zergs.
Both EotS and VD aren't the main reason, why organized ball groups are hard to deal with for unorganized zergs (which seems to be your main issue - and no, snipe spamming is certainly not the best way to counter those). It has more something to do with - surprise - their organisation. And a lot of different skills. EotS is just the most obvious one. Visually.

I run with a couple of the strongest groups on XBOX EU server, but to be fair - we don't have much discipline or strategy. Everyone does their own thing, those who are "in the know" stick to some certain other players for better group dynamics. We have healers, and a natural occurrence of everything necessary.

Rianai wrote: »

I don't really understand what your issue is.

Ball groups turtle up inside a tower? Ignore them. They farm AP? Why care? YOU dont need to donate them AP ... Their playstyle is boring? YOU don't have to play like this ... Players get ressed after dieing? Well, that will always happen if you face multiple players and can't wipe them all at once. Take away EotS and VD and nothing of those points will change.

Most often, it seems that they are being ignored nowadays. But as they realize that their "you-can't-catch-me" games are becoming less popular, they start to turtle up in strategic locations too. Most often some final emp keep, of course. Only thing that matters, is that a certain color doesn't get emp. No matter if they don't even have their own home keeps anymore. Farming ap seems more interesting.

I came to think of a solution for this, and most other bad player behavior: Put a time limit on resurrects. Same as for spawning at a forward camps. After one resurrect, you'd be forced to spawn in a keep (or forward camp), or wait until the time has passed.
For example "tower farmers" these destro ulti/vd groups would be gone overnight. I'd rather see that than these constant nerfs all the time. It's frustrating when really good sets are destroyed one after another, just because of things like these.

Uh, there already is a time limit on forward camps. The first one is free. After that, you are on a five minute timer. If the nearby keep is flagged (one wall below 50%) you can't rez up inside the keep either. That's a pretty integral part of Cyrodiil strategy right there.

If you want to make that more difficult by having the timer start right away or limit rezzing and getting back to the fight, you'll remove a lot of the fluidity of the combat in Cyrodiil and make the horse riding simulator worse. I don't like the ball groups anymore than the rest of you, but I'm not willing to shoot my gameplay in the foot to do it.

You misunderstood me: Put the same time limit on being resurrected on other players, such as on forward camps. So, basically: You would be able to get resurrected once, and spawn at a forward camp once. I basically thought of that thing defending a keep against both the AD and DC at the same time (who as usual fought side by side), after more than an hour - they managed to breach both postern doors and the front door at the same time, and in they went with destro ulti/vd guys in front. So much for a fair fight.

Had there been such a time limit on resurrects, we would really have had a chance. But when everyone can be resurrected indefinitely, all you can hope for is another group to flank them and kill all of them at the same time. That's pretty flawed to say the least, especially with this new kind of destro kamikaze playstyle.

Edit:
And yes, I understand what you mean. I suppose this would lead to people being more careful, instead of rushing everyone and everything all the time. I.e. a more intelligent and strategic way of playing. They seem to try to take the steam out of the fighting by nerfing all kinds of sets, or by making sustain worse and what not - when what they really should do is, make people more careful of dying in the first place. I suppose it would also lead to a more defensive playstyle, these huge zergs riding around like a swarm of locusts would not be able to move around as freely as before. I dunno, but I really think it's worth considering.

Now imagine it from the other side. You're a bunch of beleagered defenders. You are whittling down their numbers but they are killing you too. Then a chunk of your players die on the top from siege. You could rez them and get them back up for the defense, but oh no! They're on rez timers. Guess you got screwed.

Access to rezzing as along as another player can get to you is something that works equally in favor of all players. Maybe one day you lose a keep because of it. Maybe one day you save a keep because of it

Yes, I'm fine with that. I really am. As long as it actually makes it POSSIBLE to defend against a faction merge mob, of like 2-4 full groups. As it is now, it's just a matter of time before you go down.

VaranisArano

Raudgrani wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

An AOE as strong as EOTS shouldn't be moving around. Simple as that.
Why does it exist then? because PvE focused game.

It came to the point that being a coordinated group means you have %90 of your raid magNB bombers, occasional magsorc for negate, a stam toon for spamming rapid non stop, and a few healers.
This is what ''coordinated raids'' are all about now.

That's exactly right. It's not only about negate, the death is so fast that you can't even use Vigor either. It's too slow. It's quite a thing to take down such a "flame train". At least on my server, these doesn

Rianai wrote: »

I see a lot more meteors, soul assaults, dawnbreakers, incaps, bow ultis and dk leaps than destro ults. Maybe because the latter isn't as good for Xvs1 ...

EotS is only really good in organized groups in combination with other skills and against a large amount of (not so organized) enemies. On its own it doesn't do much. Even multiple Storms cast at once aren't much of an issue if those players don't have coordination and support from other players.
VD is a great anti zerg tool. Yes, it can and is used by zergs too, but it is still only useful if those zergs are fighting other zergs.
Both EotS and VD aren't the main reason, why organized ball groups are hard to deal with for unorganized zergs (which seems to be your main issue - and no, snipe spamming is certainly not the best way to counter those). It has more something to do with - surprise - their organisation. And a lot of different skills. EotS is just the most obvious one. Visually.

I run with a couple of the strongest groups on XBOX EU server, but to be fair - we don't have much discipline or strategy. Everyone does their own thing, those who are "in the know" stick to some certain other players for better group dynamics. We have healers, and a natural occurrence of everything necessary.

Rianai wrote: »

I don't really understand what your issue is.

Ball groups turtle up inside a tower? Ignore them. They farm AP? Why care? YOU dont need to donate them AP ... Their playstyle is boring? YOU don't have to play like this ... Players get ressed after dieing? Well, that will always happen if you face multiple players and can't wipe them all at once. Take away EotS and VD and nothing of those points will change.

Most often, it seems that they are being ignored nowadays. But as they realize that their "you-can't-catch-me" games are becoming less popular, they start to turtle up in strategic locations too. Most often some final emp keep, of course. Only thing that matters, is that a certain color doesn't get emp. No matter if they don't even have their own home keeps anymore. Farming ap seems more interesting.

I came to think of a solution for this, and most other bad player behavior: Put a time limit on resurrects. Same as for spawning at a forward camps. After one resurrect, you'd be forced to spawn in a keep (or forward camp), or wait until the time has passed.
For example "tower farmers" these destro ulti/vd groups would be gone overnight. I'd rather see that than these constant nerfs all the time. It's frustrating when really good sets are destroyed one after another, just because of things like these.

Uh, there already is a time limit on forward camps. The first one is free. After that, you are on a five minute timer. If the nearby keep is flagged (one wall below 50%) you can't rez up inside the keep either. That's a pretty integral part of Cyrodiil strategy right there.

If you want to make that more difficult by having the timer start right away or limit rezzing and getting back to the fight, you'll remove a lot of the fluidity of the combat in Cyrodiil and make the horse riding simulator worse. I don't like the ball groups anymore than the rest of you, but I'm not willing to shoot my gameplay in the foot to do it.

You misunderstood me: Put the same time limit on being resurrected on other players, such as on forward camps. So, basically: You would be able to get resurrected once, and spawn at a forward camp once. I basically thought of that thing defending a keep against both the AD and DC at the same time (who as usual fought side by side), after more than an hour - they managed to breach both postern doors and the front door at the same time, and in they went with destro ulti/vd guys in front. So much for a fair fight.

Had there been such a time limit on resurrects, we would really have had a chance. But when everyone can be resurrected indefinitely, all you can hope for is another group to flank them and kill all of them at the same time. That's pretty flawed to say the least, especially with this new kind of destro kamikaze playstyle.

Edit:
And yes, I understand what you mean. I suppose this would lead to people being more careful, instead of rushing everyone and everything all the time. I.e. a more intelligent and strategic way of playing. They seem to try to take the steam out of the fighting by nerfing all kinds of sets, or by making sustain worse and what not - when what they really should do is, make people more careful of dying in the first place. I suppose it would also lead to a more defensive playstyle, these huge zergs riding around like a swarm of locusts would not be able to move around as freely as before. I dunno, but I really think it's worth considering.

Now imagine it from the other side. You're a bunch of beleagered defenders. You are whittling down their numbers but they are killing you too. Then a chunk of your players die on the top from siege. You could rez them and get them back up for the defense, but oh no! They're on rez timers. Guess you got screwed.

Access to rezzing as along as another player can get to you is something that works equally in favor of all players. Maybe one day you lose a keep because of it. Maybe one day you save a keep because of it

Yes, I'm fine with that. I really am. As long as it actually makes it POSSIBLE to defend against a faction merge mob, of like 2-4 full groups. As it is now, it's just a matter of time before you go down.

And I'm not. Thing is, gameplay changes aren't going to help in those situations. If you are plain outnumbered, you either need more numbers or you need to get organized. One organized group can change the course of the battle.

I run in an organized raid and we wound up at one of those situations not too long ago. We snuck out of the keep, swept in behind the enemy and wiped their siege line, so that the defenders could break the stalemate going on inside. But it wasn't just our extra 15 players that made for the victory. Our 15 could have stayed inside the keep and been whittled down as surely as anyone else. It was what we did with those 15 players.

So I'm against gameplay changes to deal with what is effectively an organization problem. If the enemy is both more numerous and more organized that you, gameplay changes aren't going to change a thing. Gameplay changes can deal with numbers only. When sheer numbers are the problem, Vicious Death, Proxy Det, Eye of Flame become super helpful. But when the problem is the enemy organization, Vicious Death, Proxy Det, Eye of Flame are now being used against you by those organized players. Its the same here. Change the rez timers, okay. Now who's at a greater disadvantage, the organized raid or you? The organized raid can compensate for that much more easily. They can change to have more healers if necessary.

An organized raid can adapt to gameplay changes because they are organized and will do so better than any amount of disorganized players. Changing how the game is played, whether that's rez timers or zerg-busting skills or lowering healing, will not protect you from an organized raid that can adapt. All you can do is get organized yourselves and do it better than the enemy raid. Break the stalemate with better tactics and organization.

jaws343

CalmFury wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

An AOE as strong as EOTS shouldn't be moving around. Simple as that.
Why does it exist then? because PvE focused game.

It came to the point that being a coordinated group means you have %90 of your raid magNB bombers, occasional magsorc for negate, a stam toon for spamming rapid non stop, and a few healers.
This is what ''coordinated raids'' are all about now.

That's exactly right. It's not only about negate, the death is so fast that you can't even use Vigor either. It's too slow. It's quite a thing to take down such a "flame train". At least on my server, these doesn

Rianai wrote: »

I see a lot more meteors, soul assaults, dawnbreakers, incaps, bow ultis and dk leaps than destro ults. Maybe because the latter isn't as good for Xvs1 ...

EotS is only really good in organized groups in combination with other skills and against a large amount of (not so organized) enemies. On its own it doesn't do much. Even multiple Storms cast at once aren't much of an issue if those players don't have coordination and support from other players.
VD is a great anti zerg tool. Yes, it can and is used by zergs too, but it is still only useful if those zergs are fighting other zergs.
Both EotS and VD aren't the main reason, why organized ball groups are hard to deal with for unorganized zergs (which seems to be your main issue - and no, snipe spamming is certainly not the best way to counter those). It has more something to do with - surprise - their organisation. And a lot of different skills. EotS is just the most obvious one. Visually.

I run with a couple of the strongest groups on XBOX EU server, but to be fair - we don't have much discipline or strategy. Everyone does their own thing, those who are "in the know" stick to some certain other players for better group dynamics. We have healers, and a natural occurrence of everything necessary.

Rianai wrote: »

I don't really understand what your issue is.

Ball groups turtle up inside a tower? Ignore them. They farm AP? Why care? YOU dont need to donate them AP ... Their playstyle is boring? YOU don't have to play like this ... Players get ressed after dieing? Well, that will always happen if you face multiple players and can't wipe them all at once. Take away EotS and VD and nothing of those points will change.

Most often, it seems that they are being ignored nowadays. But as they realize that their "you-can't-catch-me" games are becoming less popular, they start to turtle up in strategic locations too. Most often some final emp keep, of course. Only thing that matters, is that a certain color doesn't get emp. No matter if they don't even have their own home keeps anymore. Farming ap seems more interesting.

I came to think of a solution for this, and most other bad player behavior: Put a time limit on resurrects. Same as for spawning at a forward camps. After one resurrect, you'd be forced to spawn in a keep (or forward camp), or wait until the time has passed.
For example "tower farmers" these destro ulti/vd groups would be gone overnight. I'd rather see that than these constant nerfs all the time. It's frustrating when really good sets are destroyed one after another, just because of things like these.

Exactly this last part... They now stack on the last Emp keep, or they get the scroll and just keep it until it resets, or flag a keep but doesn't take it and just keep farming people there. Or they break the stairs inside keeps and stay there...

It is not like the old days of tower farming in a resource where you could just ignore them and keep doing the campaign objectives.

At least on Xbox NA it has become VERY common that there is a Destro bomb group in a vital place for those wanting to to the campaign objectives.

Isn't stacking on the last Emp keep a strategy though. I mean, do you just expect them to go sit in another, unimportant keep, while they lose Emp because you want it to be easier to take the keep?

IDK, some of my favorite moments are breaking down the front door to the last Emp keep only to be met by 2 or 3 bombers and a ton of siege. And then needing to hit another wall to draw off defenders from the front door and make their defense more vulnerable.

VaranisArano

jaws343 wrote: »

CalmFury wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

An AOE as strong as EOTS shouldn't be moving around. Simple as that.
Why does it exist then? because PvE focused game.

It came to the point that being a coordinated group means you have %90 of your raid magNB bombers, occasional magsorc for negate, a stam toon for spamming rapid non stop, and a few healers.
This is what ''coordinated raids'' are all about now.

That's exactly right. It's not only about negate, the death is so fast that you can't even use Vigor either. It's too slow. It's quite a thing to take down such a "flame train". At least on my server, these doesn

Rianai wrote: »

I see a lot more meteors, soul assaults, dawnbreakers, incaps, bow ultis and dk leaps than destro ults. Maybe because the latter isn't as good for Xvs1 ...

EotS is only really good in organized groups in combination with other skills and against a large amount of (not so organized) enemies. On its own it doesn't do much. Even multiple Storms cast at once aren't much of an issue if those players don't have coordination and support from other players.
VD is a great anti zerg tool. Yes, it can and is used by zergs too, but it is still only useful if those zergs are fighting other zergs.
Both EotS and VD aren't the main reason, why organized ball groups are hard to deal with for unorganized zergs (which seems to be your main issue - and no, snipe spamming is certainly not the best way to counter those). It has more something to do with - surprise - their organisation. And a lot of different skills. EotS is just the most obvious one. Visually.

I run with a couple of the strongest groups on XBOX EU server, but to be fair - we don't have much discipline or strategy. Everyone does their own thing, those who are "in the know" stick to some certain other players for better group dynamics. We have healers, and a natural occurrence of everything necessary.

Rianai wrote: »

I don't really understand what your issue is.

Ball groups turtle up inside a tower? Ignore them. They farm AP? Why care? YOU dont need to donate them AP ... Their playstyle is boring? YOU don't have to play like this ... Players get ressed after dieing? Well, that will always happen if you face multiple players and can't wipe them all at once. Take away EotS and VD and nothing of those points will change.

Most often, it seems that they are being ignored nowadays. But as they realize that their "you-can't-catch-me" games are becoming less popular, they start to turtle up in strategic locations too. Most often some final emp keep, of course. Only thing that matters, is that a certain color doesn't get emp. No matter if they don't even have their own home keeps anymore. Farming ap seems more interesting.

I came to think of a solution for this, and most other bad player behavior: Put a time limit on resurrects. Same as for spawning at a forward camps. After one resurrect, you'd be forced to spawn in a keep (or forward camp), or wait until the time has passed.
For example "tower farmers" these destro ulti/vd groups would be gone overnight. I'd rather see that than these constant nerfs all the time. It's frustrating when really good sets are destroyed one after another, just because of things like these.

Exactly this last part... They now stack on the last Emp keep, or they get the scroll and just keep it until it resets, or flag a keep but doesn't take it and just keep farming people there. Or they break the stairs inside keeps and stay there...

It is not like the old days of tower farming in a resource where you could just ignore them and keep doing the campaign objectives.

At least on Xbox NA it has become VERY common that there is a Destro bomb group in a vital place for those wanting to to the campaign objectives.

Isn't stacking on the last Emp keep a strategy though. I mean, do you just expect them to go sit in another, unimportant keep, while they lose Emp because you want it to be easier to take the keep?

IDK, some of my favorite moments are breaking down the front door to the last Emp keep only to be met by 2 or 3 bombers and a ton of siege. And then needing to hit another wall to draw off defenders from the front door and make their defense more vulnerable.

Yeah, its a strategy. The easiest counter strategy is "Well, if you all want to faction-stack on the last emp keep, I'm going to take my raid and grab your home keeps and your scrolls and everything else you own on the map while the rest of your faction screams at you for losing them everything in a doomed attempt to hang onto your emperorship..."

And if for some reason you want to be fighting that faction stack, breaking down multiple walls is a great tactic.

Sharee

VaranisArano wrote: »

So the problem with dealing with these groups becomes that no skill added to the game is going to remove the organization that allows them to use those skills effectively. Whatever skills you add to the game to deal with them, an organized raid will use right back at you.

The solution is doing something that only affects an organized group.

For example, a loose zerg of unorganized people who largely aren't even grouped won't be any less effective if you make purge and rapid maneuver skills self-only. But organized "ball groups" will suddenly become vulnerable to things like meatbag catapults, eruption, etc.

VaranisArano

Sharee wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So the problem with dealing with these groups becomes that no skill added to the game is going to remove the organization that allows them to use those skills effectively. Whatever skills you add to the game to deal with them, an organized raid will use right back at you.

The solution is doing something that only affects an organized group.

For example, a loose zerg of unorganized people who largely aren't even grouped won't be any less effective if you make purge and rapid maneuver skills self-only. But organized "ball groups" will suddenly become vulnerable to things like meatbag catapults, eruption, etc.

So, let's gut the Support and Assault parts of the Alliance War skill lines, huh? That'll teach those raids.

Those would have a big impact, sure. In the short term, anyway. I don't suspect it would be as bad as you think. Its not that difficult to slot those skills and with the rest of their heals and DPS spread out across the whole group, I think a raid could afford for its members to slot both skills for when they needed it. That would take away some resources fromtheir other damaging skills, but again, they can pump out a lot of damage in a small area anayway. You'd see a lot more ranged sieges on keep doors.

Dasovaruilos

VaranisArano wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

CalmFury wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

An AOE as strong as EOTS shouldn't be moving around. Simple as that.
Why does it exist then? because PvE focused game.

It came to the point that being a coordinated group means you have %90 of your raid magNB bombers, occasional magsorc for negate, a stam toon for spamming rapid non stop, and a few healers.
This is what ''coordinated raids'' are all about now.

That's exactly right. It's not only about negate, the death is so fast that you can't even use Vigor either. It's too slow. It's quite a thing to take down such a "flame train". At least on my server, these doesn

Rianai wrote: »

I see a lot more meteors, soul assaults, dawnbreakers, incaps, bow ultis and dk leaps than destro ults. Maybe because the latter isn't as good for Xvs1 ...

EotS is only really good in organized groups in combination with other skills and against a large amount of (not so organized) enemies. On its own it doesn't do much. Even multiple Storms cast at once aren't much of an issue if those players don't have coordination and support from other players.
VD is a great anti zerg tool. Yes, it can and is used by zergs too, but it is still only useful if those zergs are fighting other zergs.
Both EotS and VD aren't the main reason, why organized ball groups are hard to deal with for unorganized zergs (which seems to be your main issue - and no, snipe spamming is certainly not the best way to counter those). It has more something to do with - surprise - their organisation. And a lot of different skills. EotS is just the most obvious one. Visually.

I run with a couple of the strongest groups on XBOX EU server, but to be fair - we don't have much discipline or strategy. Everyone does their own thing, those who are "in the know" stick to some certain other players for better group dynamics. We have healers, and a natural occurrence of everything necessary.

Rianai wrote: »

I don't really understand what your issue is.

Ball groups turtle up inside a tower? Ignore them. They farm AP? Why care? YOU dont need to donate them AP ... Their playstyle is boring? YOU don't have to play like this ... Players get ressed after dieing? Well, that will always happen if you face multiple players and can't wipe them all at once. Take away EotS and VD and nothing of those points will change.

Most often, it seems that they are being ignored nowadays. But as they realize that their "you-can't-catch-me" games are becoming less popular, they start to turtle up in strategic locations too. Most often some final emp keep, of course. Only thing that matters, is that a certain color doesn't get emp. No matter if they don't even have their own home keeps anymore. Farming ap seems more interesting.

I came to think of a solution for this, and most other bad player behavior: Put a time limit on resurrects. Same as for spawning at a forward camps. After one resurrect, you'd be forced to spawn in a keep (or forward camp), or wait until the time has passed.
For example "tower farmers" these destro ulti/vd groups would be gone overnight. I'd rather see that than these constant nerfs all the time. It's frustrating when really good sets are destroyed one after another, just because of things like these.

Exactly this last part... They now stack on the last Emp keep, or they get the scroll and just keep it until it resets, or flag a keep but doesn't take it and just keep farming people there. Or they break the stairs inside keeps and stay there...

It is not like the old days of tower farming in a resource where you could just ignore them and keep doing the campaign objectives.

At least on Xbox NA it has become VERY common that there is a Destro bomb group in a vital place for those wanting to to the campaign objectives.

Isn't stacking on the last Emp keep a strategy though. I mean, do you just expect them to go sit in another, unimportant keep, while they lose Emp because you want it to be easier to take the keep?

IDK, some of my favorite moments are breaking down the front door to the last Emp keep only to be met by 2 or 3 bombers and a ton of siege. And then needing to hit another wall to draw off defenders from the front door and make their defense more vulnerable.

Yeah, its a strategy. The easiest counter strategy is "Well, if you all want to faction-stack on the last emp keep, I'm going to take my raid and grab your home keeps and your scrolls and everything else you own on the map while the rest of your faction screams at you for losing them everything in a doomed attempt to hang onto your emperorship..."

And if for some reason you want to be fighting that faction stack, breaking down multiple walls is a great tactic.

For sure. But sometimes they let you take the whole map and won't even fix the doors or walls of that keep. They just want people to get into, bomb them, and repeat. For hours...

A few weeks back on Xbox NA we had one AD Destro bombing farming Warden and an ED Destro bombing group farming Rayles. You literally logged in, and couldn't leave the gates because the two first keeps were being AP farmed... Again, for hours.

As we said, you can call those things strategies for sure... But what they do is make PvP way too boring and a lot of people just see this and get out. And Destro ulti is the ultimate enabler of this.

Today the only way to wipe those big Destro ulti bomber groups is with another Destro ulti bomber groups.

I'm just saying, people are complaining PvP is dead, and those things are one of the main reasons. People get in and see nothing happening, and when they do, they die in 1 second from these tatics. Over and over and over and over again.

I honestly think PvP would attract more people if that wasn't the most dominant group strategy...

Sharee

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So the problem with dealing with these groups becomes that no skill added to the game is going to remove the organization that allows them to use those skills effectively. Whatever skills you add to the game to deal with them, an organized raid will use right back at you.

The solution is doing something that only affects an organized group.

For example, a loose zerg of unorganized people who largely aren't even grouped won't be any less effective if you make purge and rapid maneuver skills self-only. But organized "ball groups" will suddenly become vulnerable to things like meatbag catapults, eruption, etc.

So, let's gut the Support and Assault parts of the Alliance War skill lines, huh? That'll teach those raids.

Those would have a big impact, sure. In the short term, anyway. I don't suspect it would be as bad as you think. Its not that difficult to slot those skills and with the rest of their heals and DPS spread out across the whole group, I think a raid could afford for its members to slot both skills for when they needed it. That would take away some resources fromtheir other damaging skills, but again, they can pump out a lot of damage in a small area anayway. You'd see a lot more ranged sieges on keep doors.

What is difficult is not the slotting, but the spamming. For example a bomber magNB simply can not afford to spam rapid maneuver himself to get the same degree of snare immunity he gets today from a dedicated rapids spammer groupmate who is specced for it.