Sustaining as a tank: what am I doing wrong?

Aurielle

So, I recently decided to give tanking a whirl, after many years of exclusively playing healers and damage dealers in MMOs. After doing a bit of research, I kitted out my Argonian with some Plague Doctor and Ebon gear and mismatched monster sets (infused + tri-stat glyphs on big pieces, sturdy + health glyphs on small pieces, block cost reduction glyphs on jewelry) and decided to start out slow with some random normals to get the hang of it. I can't give my full slate of character stats, as I'm visiting family for Christmas and don't have access to my PS4, but if I remember correctly, I had around 35-40k health, 20k stamina, and 20-22k magicka (buffed with tri-stat food). I can't remember what my magicka recovery looked like, but I know it wasn't great. I didn't bother much with stam recovery for obvious reasons. Also, I realize Ebon/PD is overkill for random normals, but I wanted to have a big health pool to be on the safe side while learning the ropes.

Well. When I wasn't running out of stamina from taunting/debuffing mobs and also trying to contribute a bit of damage (using stamina-based DK/1H+S skills + caltrops), I was running out of magicka from trying to chain mobs and apply talons... This was surprising to me, as I've always read that DKs (and Argonian DKs in particular) are great with sustain.

What am I doing wrong? I've NEVER had sustain issues before with any of my damage dealers or my healer. I have lots of CP points in block cost reduction and heavy attack stamina return, but I'm still running on empty on stamina most of the time. I can't spam shields either for the DK passive stamina return, as I need all the magicka I can get for chains/talons. In frustration, I re-morphed a few skills and tried out a light armour-based Fortified Brass build with only two stamina-based skills on my bars (puncture and heroic slash), and that didn't help much either (though it did fix some of my magicka sustain issues ever so slightly). All I can think is that I'm maybe trying to do too much damage or trying to chain too many mobs too quickly...

Tips very much appreciated. I'm THIS close to purchasing a race change token and turning it into a dedicated damage dealer, or turning it back into a PVP tank (which I tried previously with way more success, even if it wasn't much fun).

Anrose

Tri-pots and liberal ultimate usage will be your best friends as an Argonian tank. Tons of resource return there.

If you need some extra magicka regen, then you can slot Efficient Purge and/or Barrier. That will be 10% more magicka regen with Alliance War passives.

Lastly, don’t deplete your resources trying to taunt and CC EVERYTHING since you’re new. Pick the priority targets. Eg. archers, casters, 2H melee guys. They can give your group lots of issues. Each dungeon has their own priorities, and you’ll learn how to pick them out. Your positioning will also be important. Taunt melee adds and pull the ranged. That will save magicka since you’re not chaining every ranged add.

Runefang

Use the Balance skill in the Mage Guild line. It gives you the magicka back that you need to maintain casting either your shield or Green Dragon Blood. Those then give you back the stamina you need.

I do this often when I'm not given shards or orbs by the healer. It's not a great trials tactic, but in a trial I'll be given shards/orbs anyway.

Also don't cast DPS skills, your weapon damage just ain't up to scratch for it to be worthwhile. Focus on group buffs, enemy debuffs and CCs. Between taunts, chains, talons, molten armaments, blocking and casting Balance that's enough to keep me busy.

newtinmpls

Hmm would that mean tava's would be a good Argonian tank set?

also as tank:

1-taunt boss
2-keep boss facing away from party
3-interupt boss fancy attacks

then add other skills (maybe you are at 'add other skills' already)

Maura_Neysa

Along with the two comments above, make sure your max mag is less than your max stamina. Shards/ orbs goes to the bigger pool.
For reference here are my stats. (I am a warden)
Ebon and Torug's
36k Health (40k with Minor Toughness)
200 heath recovery (vampire)
19k Stamina
700 stamina recovery
14k Magicka
1800 magicka recovery
33150 resistances
All Sturdy, all Prismatic

Aurielle

Thanks, guys. I'll give your suggestions a try. I suspected that I may have been overdoing it a bit re: chains and damage... I'll try to do a better job of recognizing the priority ranged targets to pull, rather than trying to chain EVERYTHING that I can't aggro when I first run into a room/corridor. Getting out of the mindset of feeling like I also need to deal damage will probably be the hardest habit to break (especially in random normals -- I've unfortunately been getting thrown into dungeons with "damage dealers" who seem have the equivalent of green tier pool noodles equipped as their primary weapons, and healers who think that all they need to do is spam mutagen/springs/BoL/resto heavy attacks). Maybe it won't be so bad when I feel comfortable enough to tank vet dungeons and don't feel compelled to carry the whole group. The thought of grinding Mages Guild again is painful, but it seems like magicka sustain is the main stumbling point for me right now. I thought about putting a frost staff on my second bar to help with that, but nothing I've read so far seems to suggest that it's a viable option.

Liofa

There are 2 ways to play a DK tank . First with Magicka Recovery , second with Balance . Which one you choose basically depends on how much you trust your healer .

Balance means infinite magicka and stamina sustain through Helping Hands . You do hurt yourself during the process but that's why I said it depends on your trust for your healer . I mean , it's not even a lot of damage . With all the DK Healing Received passives and stuff , every tick of Springs will be at least 3.5-4k . Balance does 5.1k damage on each cast . That's almost nothing . With only 1 skill , you can stack everything into whatever you want . You can use useful monster sets like Lord Warden / Rkugamz etc. while Magicka Recovery builds will most likely go with Choketorn/Shadowrend combo .

Balance users might have some difficult times when you are seperated from your healer . Surviving these times is something you will have to learn with experience .

Magicka Recovery builds are limited in a way . They have to be careful about how they use their Magicka . If you run out of Magicka and have to use a Magicka skill , you'll have to wait a bit . But they have better self survival and self sustain .

To sum it up , Balance builds are clear winners if you have a decent healer . Just level that Mages Guild line , you won't regret it .

tommalmm

For stamina issues. Taunt on 12s interval (not 15s, take a look at the debuff timer), no need to do it more often. Use heavy attacks to restore your stamina (in dungeons you don't have to block in 99% of the cases, just block heavy attacks and attacks that knocback you). With sword and board passives + some CP in tenacity, you'll always be at 70-100% (heavy attack, pierce, heavy attack, heroic slash, etc). If you think that blocking takes too much stamina, go for more sturdy pieces and get back to infused once you know what you have to block and what you don't need to.

For magicka... Don't bother with your resistances too much. If you hit 27-28k that's absolutely enough for any veteran hm dungeon. So if you use monster sets that give you resistance, take ones that give you magicka regen (chokethorn + shadowrend). Use attronach mundus stone. Then put a alliance support skill on your bar to get more regen with passive, then become a vampire to get another 10%.

The other way is to use balance to restore your magicka at the expense of health. TBH, I like high magicka regen much more.

On an argonian potions are your friend. If you're playing DK, igneous shield will give you stamina back (and you can spam it with enough magicka sustain). Use your ultimate!

Nestor

Aurielle wrote: »

Tips very much appreciated. I'm THIS close to purchasing a race change token and turning it into a dedicated damage dealer, or turning it back into a PVP tank (which I tried previously with way more success, even if it wasn't much fun).

You got to slow down. Only apply your skills as the Buff/Debuff/Effect Timers run out. I use Chains, but only on the more annoying mobs like archers and long distance casters, but only a couple of them at a time. No need to chain all the mobs in. Talons, I never use them myself, I have issues getting the spell to work, but others seem to be OK.

However, compared to a DPS or Healer that is throwing out a skill every second or so, as a Tank, your talking about every 6 to 8 seconds usually. In the meantime your watching the boss to see if you need to Bash or reapply taunt or watching the Buff Timers to see when you need to reapply those. My biggest adjustment with Tanking is learning to slow down and only applying things as they are needed because the effects run out, not to stack damage skills.

Also, I run 7 Heavy on my Tank and I am not sure what passive it is, but my Tri-Pots almost top me off, more so than any other Alt I have. Then again, since the sustain changes I use more Tri-Pots on all my characters, Tanks even more so.

If you have enough Health, you don't have to hold Block all the time, only during Heavy Attack wind up and skill windup. Other wise just absorb the damage unblocked.

I run Plague Doctor, Hist Bark and Blood Spawn. With Tri-Glyphs on most (all?) armor pieces I am at 54K Health, 17K Stamina and Magic, on Tri Food with my Imperial DK. Not sure why your Health is so low, as Ebon and Hist are close on the Health stats. That being said, 40K health should be enough, and you have more Stamina and Magic than I do. So, more than likely, your just doing too many things with your skills. DPS, you want overwhelming damage, Healing you want to make sure people have topped off health. Tanking, you want to do things as they are needed and not before hand.

Aurielle

Nestor wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Tips very much appreciated. I'm THIS close to purchasing a race change token and turning it into a dedicated damage dealer, or turning it back into a PVP tank (which I tried previously with way more success, even if it wasn't much fun).

You got to slow down. Only apply your skills as the Buff/Debuff/Effect Timers run out. I use Chains, but only on the more annoying mobs like archers and long distance casters, but only a couple of them at a time. No need to chain all the mobs in. Talons, I never use them myself, I have issues getting the spell to work, but others seem to be OK.

However, compared to a DPS or Healer that is throwing out a skill every second or so, as a Tank, your talking about every 6 to 8 seconds usually. In the meantime your watching the boss to see if you need to Bash or reapply taunt or watching the Buff Timers to see when you need to reapply those. My biggest adjustment with Tanking is learning to slow down and only applying things as they are needed because the effects run out, not to stack damage skills.

Also, I run 7 Heavy on my Tank and I am not sure what passive it is, but my Tri-Pots almost top me off, more so than any other Alt I have. Then again, since the sustain changes I use more Tri-Pots on all my characters, Tanks even more so.

If you have enough Health, you don't have to hold Block all the time, only during Heavy Attack wind up and skill windup. Other wise just absorb the damage unblocked.

I run Plague Doctor, Hist Bark and Blood Spawn. With Tri-Glyphs on most (all?) armor pieces I am at 54K Health, 17K Stamina and Magic, on Tri Food with my Imperial DK. Not sure why your Health is so low, as Ebon and Hist are close on the Health stats. That being said, 40K health should be enough, and you have more Stamina and Magic than I do. So, more than likely, your just doing too many things with your skills. DPS, you want overwhelming damage, Healing you want to make sure people have topped off health. Tanking, you want to do things as they are needed and not before hand.

Thanks again, everyone. The advice above is especially relevant for me, I think -- I had NO idea that taking it slow and steady is what's expected of tanks; I'm so used to using rotations and doing stuff ALL the time, so forcing myself to apply skills every 6-8 seconds instead of as fast as I can weave them in will be a big adjustment. Even when I'm healing, I'm dishing out damage and trying to help out the group in other ways. I'm going to try using block a bit less as well, as I think that's what's screwing up my stamina sustain (well, that and caltrops, which I'll stop using as well).

As for health, that's just a ballpark figure. I'll check again when I get back home at the end of the week. It could be slightly above 40k (definitely not anywhere near 50k though, I know that for sure). I didn't invest any attribute points whatsoever into health, which might account for the discrepancy. If I recall correctly, most points were in stamina with enough in magicka to get me above 20k.

I'll try using tri-pot potions as well if the above adjustments don't help as much as I need them to. I've just been using trash magicka/stamina pots (because they're random normals and I'm on an Argonian), but maybe I'm just going to have to accept that I'll need to spend a bit more on potions if I want to be an effective tank.

Tanking sure is a different approach to playing the game...

Maura_Neysa

Aurielle wrote: »

Thanks, guys. I'll give your suggestions a try. I suspected that I may have been overdoing it a bit re: chains and damage... I'll try to do a better job of recognizing the priority ranged targets to pull, rather than trying to chain EVERYTHING that I can't aggro when I first run into a room/corridor. Getting out of the mindset of feeling like I also need to deal damage will probably be the hardest habit to break (especially in random normals -- I've unfortunately been getting thrown into dungeons with "damage dealers" who seem have the equivalent of green tier pool noodles equipped as their primary weapons, and healers who think that all they need to do is spam mutagen/springs/BoL/resto heavy attacks). Maybe it won't be so bad when I feel comfortable enough to tank vet dungeons and don't feel compelled to carry the whole group. The thought of grinding Mages Guild again is painful, but it seems like magicka sustain is the main stumbling point for me right now. I thought about putting a frost staff on my second bar to help with that, but nothing I've read so far seems to suggest that it's a viable option.

It’s viable, if you want to go that route

https://youtu.be/So3A13kSefQ