Physical Penetration, i thought it made a more impressive difference. (please Read OP)

Insandros

Greetings guys,

As stated, another thing i don't understand in this game... here i am on my NB stam trying test, trying to find that few pts giving me best performance... si doign test, test and test.. this game is so random that ltos i don't understand.. i tried Fighter mundus, thief mundus.. i'm on thief mundus, i go grab fighter mundus, wow i get better result, going to 39-40k on about 3 parse tests.. ehre i go to run some errands, then for some reason if i get 36-37k, that is while standing downwind i'm like, wow... so hwere have my few more k's went to...... so i decided to try more tests, Krah or Veli's... so i told myself, we'll i'll run Velis, so i'll adjust CPs not to overpen, but to compensate the lost of Kreg, so i do al the maths, with piercing, crusher etc..etc..etc for trials... so adjust some CPs to give a bit more for the lost of krag.... wle surprised is going from 49 cp to a few for the 1k or so lost i get same result... so did some test and here's where i don't at all understand freaking Physical penetration.... as if CPs pts in pejn didn't matter much.... ,y question is, how much pen pts does matter???

I thought Training dummies were bases on about 18.2k resistance.... So i ran 3 tests..

1st Test (36.8k for 81 seconds):
0 CP pts into Piercing (Total base Pen 100)
Using Veliedreth+War Machine+Hunding (so no pen sets)
Major Facture applied by Surprise Attack (5280)
Screenshot: http://www.mediafire.com/view/pva3peyp9m1ztm9/0cp-Hunding.jpg


2nd Test (36.7k for 81 seconds):
49 CP pts into Piercing (3906) (Total base Pen 4006)
Using Veliedreth+War Machine+Night mother's Gaze (2580 for an uptime of 96%)
Major Facture applied by Surprise Attack (5280)
Screenshot: http://www.mediafire.com/file/3pkdrxanjrash4g/49cp-NMG.jpg

3rd Test (38.2k for 79 seconds):
75 CP pts into Piercing (4950) (Total base Pen 5050)
Using Veliedreth+War Machine+Night mother's Gaze (2580 for an uptime of 98%)
Major Facture applied by Surprise Attack (5280)
Screenshot: http://www.mediafire.com/file/o0sbipot5qij7li/75cp-NMG.jpg



Ok test # did got a bit better, but so not many versys the test #1 with the ammount of Pen used.... so you almost get the same with 5380 pen versus 12910 pen.... Thought Pen was way more more useful.... as if 4k pen is kinda useless since both 1st tests turns out almost the same. I guess i'm being just too *** for this game, first MMo i'm having issues or actualy understand stuff...

MLGProPlayer

On paper, penetration looks like a great deal, but for some reason tests don't match up with the math. It's possible that the math is based on wrong information.

Insandros

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

On paper, penetration looks like a great deal, but for some reason tests don't match up with the math. It's possible that the math is based on wrong information.

As someone from the staff would say « it's a feature » i presume

Gilvoth

thank you for this information, and your work and study on this subject.
you obviously worked hard, and it shows.

Insandros

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

thank you for this information, and your work and study on this subject.
you obviously worked hard, and it shows.

Not that har, i was just not understanding why i went from 49 cp to 75 cp it did the same result, so decided to run a test and took off all the cp, and that is when i decided to post trying to understand.... as each time we go in a trial we have a headache as to know who run which pen sets etc.. as it's seems not to matter much at some point, i dunno, maybe jsut the trianing dummies being bugged....?

kylewwefan

Few things going on here. I not the greatest explaining, but the NMG debuff carries over to the bow bar as well, where you lose 300 weapon damage and 5% Crit by swapping bars with Hundings. Putting a bunch of points into piercings did make your damage go up pretty big and you’ve still lost alot of weapon damage.

It’s kind of how magic users melt stuff even though they only have 2k spell damage. Once you get rid of all resistance, damage skyrockets even with much less weapon damage. Throw on the lover and

In group with sunderflame, alkosh, crusher and NMG all sudden your damage especially at execute goes through the roof.

Reverb

Insandros wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

thank you for this information, and your work and study on this subject.
you obviously worked hard, and it shows.

Not that har, i was just not understanding why i went from 49 cp to 75 cp it did the same result, so decided to run a test and took off all the cp, and that is when i decided to post trying to understand.... as each time we go in a trial we have a headache as to know who run which pen sets etc.. as it's seems not to matter much at some point, i dunno, maybe jsut the trianing dummies being bugged....?

You could go "old school" and test on Bloodspawn or Slimecraw, to rule out pen/resist issues with dummies.

eso_nya

Numbers look as expected.

Penetration counters mitigation, means at 18,2k resitance, 36,4% of your dmg is lost.

If u scale your dps up, by the percentage u lost in the parses to mitigation:

-> test #1: 13k res -> 26% dmg mitigated. 36,8 * 1,26 -> would have been 46,3k at 0 resistance
-> test #2: 6,5k res -> 13% dmg mitigated. 36,7 * 1,13 -> 41,4k when not having hundings 5pc
-> test #3: 5,5k res -> 11% dmg mitigated. 38,2 * 1,11 -> 42,4k -> 2,4% higher than #2 -> margin of error

u see the difference hundings would make over not having hundings. u also see the impact of the "margin of error": ulti timing, procs, lucky crits when comparing #2 and #3.
(This is "quick and dity", your dps was rounded before i rounded the percentages xD)

And thats what ppl call "meta", "bis", "broken op" or "useless".

Mettaricana

Curious also wouldn't a 2h maul with norn be better than the 2h swords with precise like i see some builds toting?

lolo_01b16_ESO

The 3m dummy dies quite fast if you want to do tests like that. If you want to have exact results, you need to do more tests or use a bigger dummy. Just a few things I noticed when looking at your reports:
- If you look at your dots, you will see, that all of them did more damage on average in the 49cp test compared to 0cp. They even did so much more damage, that they easiely make up for the damage loss to your heavy attacks.
- on 0cp you got 1.4k dps from the twin blade and blunt passive, on the 49cp it's not listed (which means lower than 1k)
- on 0cp all of your executes did crit, on the 49cp just one of them, which is a results in ~500 dps difference
- on 0cp your weapon damage enchant procced 10 times, on 49cp only 8 times.

So all in all the 49cp should lead to higher average dps on the dummy than 0cp, but the difference between the setups is smaller than difference you get from good luck with crits and procs.

Insandros

eso_nya wrote: »

Numbers look as expected.

Penetration counters mitigation, means at 18,2k resitance, 36,4% of your dmg is lost.

If u scale your dps up, by the percentage u lost in the parses to mitigation:

-> test #1: 13k res -> 26% dmg mitigated. 36,8 * 1,26 -> would have been 46,3k at 0 resistance
-> test #2: 6,5k res -> 13% dmg mitigated. 36,7 * 1,13 -> 41,4k when not having hundings 5pc
-> test #3: 5,5k res -> 11% dmg mitigated. 38,2 * 1,11 -> 42,4k -> 2,4% higher than #2 -> margin of error

u see the difference hundings would make over not having hundings. u also see the impact of the "margin of error": ulti timing, procs, lucky crits when comparing #2 and #3.
(This is "quick and dity", your dps was rounded before i rounded the percentages xD)

And thats what ppl call "meta", "bis", "broken op" or "useless".

Now do me the math, using Hunding on 2 test, one with 0 CP and one 75 CP and difference is not even 1k for 1 seconds total time... Is spending points in CP pen that important, don't think so,as 4k pts allocatated don't even give you 1k

PS: want me to post you the screeshot for both for your little math calculatation and theorical answers? BTW as im concerne, when you end up doing those stupid calculation to understand teh difference in 2 things, that's where a game stop being a game and some stupid nerd *** Normal people would think using 75 pts in penetration verus 0 CP would make a huge difference or a difference itself, but not a nt even 1k dif and saving you second of fight on a 3 million fight time only.

Toc de Malsvi

Insandros wrote: »

Greetings guys,

As stated, another thing i don't understand in this game... here i am on my NB stam trying test, trying to find that few pts giving me best performance... si doign test, test and test.. this game is so random that ltos i don't understand.. i tried Fighter mundus, thief mundus.. i'm on thief mundus, i go grab fighter mundus, wow i get better result, going to 39-40k on about 3 parse tests.. ehre i go to run some errands, then for some reason if i get 36-37k, that is while standing downwind i'm like, wow... so hwere have my few more k's went to...... so i decided to try more tests, Krah or Veli's... so i told myself, we'll i'll run Velis, so i'll adjust CPs not to overpen, but to compensate the lost of Kreg, so i do al the maths, with piercing, crusher etc..etc..etc for trials... so adjust some CPs to give a bit more for the lost of krag.... wle surprised is going from 49 cp to a few for the 1k or so lost i get same result... so did some test and here's where i don't at all understand freaking Physical penetration.... as if CPs pts in pejn didn't matter much.... ,y question is, how much pen pts does matter???

I thought Training dummies were bases on about 18.2k resistance.... So i ran 3 tests..

1st Test (36.8k for 81 seconds):
0 CP pts into Piercing (Total base Pen 100)
Using Veliedreth+War Machine+Hunding (so no pen sets)
Major Facture applied by Surprise Attack (5280)
Screenshot: http://www.mediafire.com/view/pva3peyp9m1ztm9/0cp-Hunding.jpg


2nd Test (36.7k for 81 seconds):
49 CP pts into Piercing (3906) (Total base Pen 4006)
Using Veliedreth+War Machine+Night mother's Gaze (2580 for an uptime of 96%)
Major Facture applied by Surprise Attack (5280)
Screenshot: http://www.mediafire.com/file/3pkdrxanjrash4g/49cp-NMG.jpg

3rd Test (38.2k for 79 seconds):
75 CP pts into Piercing (4950) (Total base Pen 5050)
Using Veliedreth+War Machine+Night mother's Gaze (2580 for an uptime of 98%)
Major Facture applied by Surprise Attack (5280)
Screenshot: http://www.mediafire.com/file/o0sbipot5qij7li/75cp-NMG.jpg



Ok test # did got a bit better, but so not many versys the test #1 with the ammount of Pen used.... so you almost get the same with 5380 pen versus 12910 pen.... Thought Pen was way more more useful.... as if 4k pen is kinda useless since both 1st tests turns out almost the same. I guess i'm being just too *** for this game, first MMo i'm having issues or actualy understand stuff...

So first off Hundings is roughly equivalent to NMG. The real advantage of NMG is you are offering penetration to the group as well. For your own numbers you are losing a hefty amount of weapon damage and replacing it with penetration. While this is more penetration than before, its a loss of weapon damage as well.

Secondly, you would need to run more parses to get a definitive result, you have different # of crits as well as regular hits between the three parses. One could be an optimal parse with a high # of crits and no missed attacks, the other could have a low # of crits due to chance and you might have missed some light/heavy attacks.

Third when you shuffle CP you aren't moving from 0 CP in everything to 75 in Piercing, at least given what it appears you are saying. If you are moving points from say Mighty to Piercing you are losing value from Mighty, the same goes with Thaumaturge, Precise Strikes, or Master at Arms. So while you might benefit from more penetration, you also might have a net change of roughly zero because of the lost value elsewhere.



Penetration is valued because in relative gear slot value it generally gives the greatest increase. It is a flat increase to all of your stamina/magicka based damage, where as weapon damage, critical strike chance, or stamina all increase certain aspects of your damage over others. Penetrations value only holds provided there are resistances to penetrate.

Weapon damage increases your light and heavy attacks more so than skills and ultimates although it does affect skills and ultimates. There are more percentage modifiers available to boost weapon damage as well, from medium armor, fighters guild skills and Major/minor brutality.

Stamina increases your skills and ultimates more so than your light or heavy attacks. Stamina has few percentage multipliers almost all of which are tied to racial passives. Stam Sorcs can get 8% more from Bound Armaments.

Critical Strike increases your chance to crit, and crit's do 50% more base plus any more percentage crit damage bonuses you have from gear, skills, passives, and or mundus.

Tan9oSuccka

I really appreciate threads like this. The math is really mind boggling to follow.

Reorx_Holybeard

Best way to do tests like these is reduce the number of variables involved or you'll drive yourself crazy. In this case you should redo Test #1 without the Hunding, preferrably wearing x4 NMG and another piece of anything. That's why Test #1 and #2 are roughly the same as Hunding is roughly equal to NMG in damage potential.

Also, depending on how reliable your DPS is you may wish to do multiple runs and average the results, or even if you have a very good rotation to reduce the effect of lucky crits. Otherwise it is hard to distinguish getting lucky on crits, having a better than average rotation, and an actual DPS increase from gear/CP.

LiquidPony

Insandros wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

Numbers look as expected.

Penetration counters mitigation, means at 18,2k resitance, 36,4% of your dmg is lost.

If u scale your dps up, by the percentage u lost in the parses to mitigation:

-> test #1: 13k res -> 26% dmg mitigated. 36,8 * 1,26 -> would have been 46,3k at 0 resistance
-> test #2: 6,5k res -> 13% dmg mitigated. 36,7 * 1,13 -> 41,4k when not having hundings 5pc
-> test #3: 5,5k res -> 11% dmg mitigated. 38,2 * 1,11 -> 42,4k -> 2,4% higher than #2 -> margin of error

u see the difference hundings would make over not having hundings. u also see the impact of the "margin of error": ulti timing, procs, lucky crits when comparing #2 and #3.
(This is "quick and dity", your dps was rounded before i rounded the percentages xD)

And thats what ppl call "meta", "bis", "broken op" or "useless".

Now do me the math, using Hunding on 2 test, one with 0 CP and one 75 CP and difference is not even 1k for 1 seconds total time... Is spending points in CP pen that important, don't think so,as 4k pts allocatated don't even give you 1k

PS: want me to post you the screeshot for both for your little math calculatation and theorical answers? BTW as im concerne, when you end up doing those stupid calculation to understand teh difference in 2 things, that's where a game stop being a game and some stupid nerd *** Normal people would think using 75 pts in penetration verus 0 CP would make a huge difference or a difference itself, but not a nt even 1k dif and saving you second of fight on a 3 million fight time only.

Regardless of what you think about "stupid nerd ***," it's all math in the end so it makes sense to approach it mathematically.

1. You haven't done a very good job of isolating anything in your tests. You should have tested, for instance, your CP setup from #1 with both Hunding's and NMG. You've moved CP around and lost control.
2. Hunding's and NMG have always been very close in terms of solo DPS.
3. With your setup in test #2, the 5th piece of NMG should provide about a 6.3% DPS boost (1 + (2580 / (50000 - 18200 + 5280 + 4006)) = 1.063); Hunding's Rage's 5th piece should be about a 5.7% DPS boost assuming you've got about 35k stamina and about 3k weapon damage (1 + ((10.5 * 299 * 1.2) / (35000 + 10.5 * 3000)) = 1.057). It's very difficult to tell the difference at all, let alone when you only do 1 test of each set. Crits, proc rates, and human error being what they are.
4. NMG is a group buff set; its benefit is more for everyone else in the group than it is for you. If you want to see the real difference penetration can do, repeat your first test but replace Hunding's Rage with Twice-Fanged Serpent and Velidreth with Kra'gh (you can find stamblades out there doing 50k+ DPS on solo parses with Twice-Fanged and Kra'gh).

And regardless, in the end, your best DPS result was with the setup that maximized penetration. Doesn't that contradict your point? Clearly pen makes a difference.

Mangybeard

That's what she said.

T4T2FR34K

So we're in agreement that 4.5k pen is the soft cap?