Sky news and loot boxes

DuckNoodles

Well sky news has finally acknowledged loot boxes in today's TOP STORIES!
Sky news is the biggest news outlet in the UK and EU

Sky news is saying "loot boxes are gambling and dangerous for young kids"

"Loot boxes are the VR cocaine of computer games"

I'm all for random loot boxes to get banned!

If I want to buy a item it's up to me to spend my money but I don't want to go through 100 random loot boxes to get the right item I wanted.

I want to be able to buy that item straight away knowing that 1 item, I wanted is in that loot crate.

What do you guys think?

LadyAstrum

I'm glad this is becoming more mainstream. I don't think this issue is going away any time soon, and could potentially create a headache for gaming companies that use these loot crates.

I'd like to see them removed or regulated in some way. Seeing kids on YouTube going nuts over opening loot boxes for the tiny chance of getting something good is disturbing, that and the people here that confess to spending thousands and not even getting what they want. It's almost sadistic.

Zordrage

100% agree..

I never ever buy lootboxes in any game..
But i allways buy a bunch of stuff directly from in game store..

I like to feel like im getting 100% of the times the stuff payed for with my money i worked for...

Not let rng decide to send my money to the wind.

N00BxV1

Lets hope it stops or changes before it goes too far.. Just imagine going into a grocery store and upon entry being given a random number, then the products you get that visit will all be random based on that number. Oh, you needed milk and eggs today? Well have fun with your tampons and cat litter.

MLGProPlayer

DuckNoodles wrote: »

Well sky news has finally acknowledged loot boxes in today's TOP STORIES!
Sky news is the biggest news outlet in the UK and EU

Lol, Sky News is not the biggest news outlet in the UK, let alone the EU (do they even have localized news in other countries?)

They are right wing news source though, so it's interesting to see them report on this.

Runs

What about lootcrate and other companies that offer physical mystery bag type sales.

Are those gambling too?


-Edit to add-

Where does it end, where do we draw the line?

greylox

Loot boxes are pure exploitation of the customer, how it was allowed to go this far is beyond me. I hope they are banned by law and we will be able to buy what we want and only what we want.

Jah_Shaka

Looks like the BBC has picked up a little on the loot box fiasco with what the BBC call 'Skin betting, and as always the wonderful BBC do NOT explain the full storey which affects just about all new game releases.

See here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42311533

Also here is the link to Sky News article: https://news.sky.com/story/loot-boxes-blur-line-between-gaming-and-gambling-11168358

RaddlemanNumber7

The regulatory authority for gambling in UK is the Gambling Commission.

Here is a link to their recent statement on loot boxes in video games:

gamblingcommission.gov.uk/news-action-and-statistics/news/2017/Loot-boxes-within-video-games.aspx

The statement says that, "where in-game items obtained via loot boxes are confined for use within the game and cannot be cashed out it is unlikely to be caught as a licensable gambling activity."

As ESO players, we all know that ESO crates and their contents cannot be cashed out. They cannot even be traded for in-game gold. So, it seems very unlikely that they would ever be classified as gambling, in the UK at least.

The focus of the Gambling Commission statement is clearly on the dangers of children being exposed to gambling. ESO is not a childrens' game. There is an 18 age limit.

Beardimus

It is interesting its in the news for sure. Personally however i'm unsure how much will be done about it, as gambling has been prevalent in Children's entertainment for years. In many areas its completely normalized.

Football stickers, Pokémon cards, Kinder Egg toys and now these collectable things where there are 'sets' to complete and seasons etc and are heavily advertised on kids TV. They end up thinking they want them even if they don't want them. These things I hate as its targeting children specifically

It feels like the above here to stay (have been around all my life) so I cant see a position where video luck / chance purchases are legally stopped and physical are not. Its just that Virtual stuff is newer and grabbing more attention.

I wont derail the thread, as my personal opinion is that I don't mind crates and this is a discussion after all. I will never buy them, but I know many people that do, and from the number of mounts around in game can see its a clear commercial success for ZOS and the game. Which is healthy for the games longevity. And its a PEGI rated game, Children should not be playing unsupervised and certainly should not have access to any in game currency or credit card details (that's a parenting fault, not a game companies fault) whereas them blowing pocket money on trading cards is within their control.

Hippie4927

Jah_Shaka wrote: »

Looks like the BBC has picked up a little on the loot box fiasco with what the BBC call 'Skin betting, and as always the wonderful BBC do NOT explain the full storey which affects just about all new game releases.

See here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42311533

Also here is the link to Sky News article: https://news.sky.com/story/loot-boxes-blur-line-between-gaming-and-gambling-11168358

Loot crates are not the same thing as "skin betting". Also, ESO is rated M for mature, therefore 11-16 year olds are not supposed to be playing it. If they are, that's their parents responsibility not ZOS's. I'm not defending loot crates but what a person spends on them is their individual responsibility. Adults should know if they can afford something or not. If you're taking food from your kids mouths to buy crates, you have a bigger problem and should seek help.

Glurin

I have just one thing to say to this.

Alien side-boob.


For the uninitiated, this is a reference to the total fiasco that came about from a thirty second love scene you can possibly get after twenty to thirty hours of game play in the original Mass Effect. In it, as the phrase implies, the raunchiest material you can see is a glimpse at the side of a naked female alien's breast. Yet it was enough for news outlets, parental groups, politicians, etc. to call it out as being something that should only be found in the closed off sections of seedy adult bookstores.

Now, I'm not saying loot crates are all good regardless of how they're implemented, but this news coverage really has that feeling of history repeating.

supaskrub

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

The focus of the Gambling Commission statement is clearly on the dangers of children being exposed to gambling. ESO is not a childrens' game. There is an 18 age limit.

In the greater scheme of things that age limit (set by PEGI in Europe) means nothing as to how old you have to be to play the game, it is there only to notify buyers/sellers that legally the game is classed as being for sale ONLY to people aged over 18.

There is nothing illegal in an adult buying the game and giving it to a five year old to play (example), Once the game/video etc is sold that is where the legal part of PEGI ends and the rest is down solely to a parent or guardians decision as the age limit we see is not enforceable by law.

Ilithyania

Think ESO would sell more in the CROWN store if people could just buy the stuff they wanted.

supaskrub

Ilithyania wrote: »

Think ESO would sell more in the CROWN store if people could just buy the stuff they wanted.

Depends how you look at it, marketing will have targets for each season of crates for example where the buyer can only hope to get what they want and have the option to buy what they want with gems that tbh are worth a fortune if you break it down as to how many repeat items are required to amass 400 gems.

Many folks will go way over their intended budget to try for a rare mount and all that extra income gets marketing closer to its targets. Selling single items means a loss of revenue as far fewer people will go over budget becasue they will get the item they want right off the bat, meaning marketing won't get anyway near its forecasts unless they increase item prices significantly. Business does not work on the premise of getting less returns season by season, it works on getting more returns.

So yes they could indeed sell more popular items but on the flip side of that make less profit without significant price increases.

woe

BREAKING NEWS: EU IS BANNING ALL CARD GAMES

Kel

Runs wrote: »

What about lootcrate and other companies that offer physical mystery bag type sales.

Are those gambling too?


-Edit to add-

Where does it end, where do we draw the line?

The diffrence with something like Lootcrate is that they have a store where if you don't get what you want you can get directly from thier site after the theme event is over.
It would be like ESO having thier monthly crate, and when that month is done, they put everything from the crates on sale for direct purchase. But companies that sell crates don't do that. If you get what you want, why would you buy more?
So...that's a pretty good line.

Jade1986

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

The regulatory authority for gambling in UK is the Gambling Commission.

Here is a link to their recent statement on loot boxes in video games:

gamblingcommission.gov.uk/news-action-and-statistics/news/2017/Loot-boxes-within-video-games.aspx

The statement says that, "where in-game items obtained via loot boxes are confined for use within the game and cannot be cashed out it is unlikely to be caught as a licensable gambling activity."

As ESO players, we all know that ESO crates and their contents cannot be cashed out. They cannot even be traded for in-game gold. So, it seems very unlikely that they would ever be classified as gambling, in the UK at least.

The focus of the Gambling Commission statement is clearly on the dangers of children being exposed to gambling. ESO is not a childrens' game. There is an 18 age limit.

"We are concerned with the growth in examples where the line between video gaming and gambling is becoming increasingly blurred. "

So clearly they are looking further into it as well. It can only be a good thing if these things go. There is 0 benefit to having them.

Slick_007

N00BxV1 wrote: »

Lets hope it stops or changes before it goes too far.. Just imagine going into a grocery store and upon entry being given a random number, then the products you get that visit will all be random based on that number. Oh, you needed milk and eggs today? Well have fun with your tampons and cat litter.

maybe if you asked your grocery store for a random item goodie bag, otherwise this is just sensationlist crap, like the sky news article.

Slick_007

deflorate wrote: »

BREAKING NEWS: EU IS BANNING ALL CARD GAMES

along with lucky dips at your local fair, since thats predominately for kids and is identical to loot crates.
#wontsomeonethinkofthechildren

Jade1986

Hippie4927 wrote: »

Jah_Shaka wrote: »

Looks like the BBC has picked up a little on the loot box fiasco with what the BBC call 'Skin betting, and as always the wonderful BBC do NOT explain the full storey which affects just about all new game releases.

See here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42311533

Also here is the link to Sky News article: https://news.sky.com/story/loot-boxes-blur-line-between-gaming-and-gambling-11168358

Loot crates are not the same thing as "skin betting". Also, ESO is rated M for mature, therefore 11-16 year olds are not supposed to be playing it. If they are, that's their parents responsibility not ZOS's. I'm not defending loot crates but what a person spends on them is their individual responsibility. Adults should know if they can afford something or not. If you're taking food from your kids mouths to buy crates, you have a bigger problem and should seek help.

Gambling is not allowed under 18, and dsome states 21. Mature is 17. If you want to use that excuse, the game would need to be made AO, which is a death sentence to video games in the US.

Samadhi

Hippie4927 wrote: »

Jah_Shaka wrote: »

Looks like the BBC has picked up a little on the loot box fiasco with what the BBC call 'Skin betting, and as always the wonderful BBC do NOT explain the full storey which affects just about all new game releases.

See here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42311533

Also here is the link to Sky News article: https://news.sky.com/story/loot-boxes-blur-line-between-gaming-and-gambling-11168358

Loot crates are not the same thing as "skin betting". ...

Yeah, the article makes pretty clear that the issue with "skin betting"
which ties in to why the gambling commission went after Valve over the matter last year: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-37573818

If they want to handle loot crates they will find a different way to frame the issue tho

Slick_007

DuckNoodles wrote: »

Well sky news has finally acknowledged loot boxes in today's TOP STORIES!
Sky news is the biggest news outlet in the UK and EU

haha, its so big that a google search for 'sky news loot crates' only managed to return one website with that - this forum thread. Not one sky news page.

If I want to buy a item it's up to me to spend my money but I don't want to go through 100 random loot boxes to get the right item I wanted.

I want to be able to buy that item straight away knowing that 1 item, I wanted is in that loot crate.

What do you guys think?

i think you dont understand the concept of loot crates, and think they work differently to how they actually work, then get cut when you dont get the item you want because of your initial misconception.

heres the difference between us re loot crates:
i buy random items when i buy a loot crate. no mount? oh well.
you (think you) buy a mount then cry how unfair it is when you dont get one

People are the ones that need to change, not the loot crates/games.

My opinion is for crates like ESO. cosmetics. not p2w crates like battlefront. I will never buy that game because of their implementation and i think ESO is copping flack from very uninformed and possibly stupid people who equate the two as being the same when they arent. Another misconception from a particular ZOS hating crowd on here. deliberate? i think so. it suits them to have people outraged about ESO, regardless of if their outrage is valid or not.

Elsonso

supaskrub wrote: »

Ilithyania wrote: »

Think ESO would sell more in the CROWN store if people could just buy the stuff they wanted.

Depends how you look at it, marketing will have targets for each season of crates for example where the buyer can only hope to get what they want and have the option to buy what they want with gems that tbh are worth a fortune if you break it down as to how many repeat items are required to amass 400 gems.

Many folks will go way over their intended budget to try for a rare mount and all that extra income gets marketing closer to its targets. Selling single items means a loss of revenue as far fewer people will go over budget becasue they will get the item they want right off the bat, meaning marketing won't get anyway near its forecasts unless they increase item prices significantly. Business does not work on the premise of getting less returns season by season, it works on getting more returns.

So yes they could indeed sell more popular items but on the flip side of that make less profit without significant price increases.

I also think that ESO should just sell stuff in the Crown Store so that we can buy the things directly. This is one of my main problems with Crown Crates.

From the article: "Put simply when you buy a loot box, you are not buying a particular item in a game, you are buying the chance of getting that item."

To address your comment, my thinking is that if a company must market their digital wares in random chance loot boxes in order to make money, what is in the loot boxes must not be something they could sell otherwise. At least, not at the price they would want to sell it for. They don't put the Crown Crate prizes in the Crown Store because that is not what they are selling. They won't make as much money off of them. The purpose of Crown Crates is to sell Crown Crates, not provide the players with what they want from them. They make more money off Crown Crates when they don't provide players what they want.

That is another main problem that I have with Crown Crates. They are just a parasite designed to separate the player from their money. They cannot survive on their own. They need a host, like ESO, to attract their prey.

In any case, while I doubt that governments will start banning loot boxes any time soon, and any legislation aimed at loot boxes will be easily side-stepped by ZOS/Bethesda, shining more light in this area cannot hurt. These articles are good.

Edit: fixed an accidental delete

Samadhi

Jade1986 wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

The regulatory authority for gambling in UK is the Gambling Commission.

Here is a link to their recent statement on loot boxes in video games:

gamblingcommission.gov.uk/news-action-and-statistics/news/2017/Loot-boxes-within-video-games.aspx

The statement says that, "where in-game items obtained via loot boxes are confined for use within the game and cannot be cashed out it is unlikely to be caught as a licensable gambling activity."

As ESO players, we all know that ESO crates and their contents cannot be cashed out. They cannot even be traded for in-game gold. So, it seems very unlikely that they would ever be classified as gambling, in the UK at least.

The focus of the Gambling Commission statement is clearly on the dangers of children being exposed to gambling. ESO is not a childrens' game. There is an 18 age limit.

"We are concerned with the growth in examples where the line between video gaming and gambling is becoming increasingly blurred. "

So clearly they are looking further into it as well. It can only be a good thing if these things go. There is 0 benefit to having them.

Am not expecting much to come of it in this regard,
they go on to specify:

Where it does meet the definition of gambling it is our job to ensure that children are protected and we have lots of rules in place, like age verification requirements, to do that.

Where a product does not meet that test to be classed as gambling but could potentially cause harm to children, parents will undoubtedly expect proper protections to be put in place by those that create, sell and regulate those products.

We could see something like added verification requirements when using a credit card to purchase Crowns,
or general stores no longer being able to sell Crown Cards to minors/carry them at all
but something like the Crown Store is in a relatively defensible position, as it is accessible through the game but not a core part of the game mechanics
so it may be feasible to see it receive a pass due to there being a form age verification gating (Credit Card ownership) between the realm of general gameplay and Crown Store purchase

at least we aren't plugging quarters into a machine to receive an indeterminate amount of gameplay time like back at the arcade

DieAlteHexe

Slick_007 wrote: »

deflorate wrote: »

BREAKING NEWS: EU IS BANNING ALL CARD GAMES

along with lucky dips at your local fair, since thats predominately for kids and is identical to loot crates.
#wontsomeonethinkofthechildren

And don't forget Kinder Eggs...

Jade1986

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

deflorate wrote: »

BREAKING NEWS: EU IS BANNING ALL CARD GAMES

along with lucky dips at your local fair, since thats predominately for kids and is identical to loot crates.
#wontsomeonethinkofthechildren

And don't forget Kinder Eggs...

Kind eggs are a huge false equivelancy. You get a toy, regardless. It would be like if you got a mount regardless.

Prof_Bawbag

Way to twist what's actually currently being discussed in the UK. It's "skin" gambling on 3rd party sites that are the issue. If SKY are including all forms of loot boxes within the report, then that's their opinion and one that isn't currently being discussed by the wider media.

SKY can't add to UK law and one isn't currently considered to be gambling (not to say I don't think it is myself) whilst the other is. That's because people are making money from others, thus those items have a monetary value (albeit,illegally) outside the game.

DieAlteHexe

Jade1986 wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Slick_007 wrote: »

deflorate wrote: »

BREAKING NEWS: EU IS BANNING ALL CARD GAMES

along with lucky dips at your local fair, since thats predominately for kids and is identical to loot crates.
#wontsomeonethinkofthechildren

And don't forget Kinder Eggs...

Kind eggs are a huge false equivelancy. You get a toy, regardless. It would be like if you got a mount regardless.

Not everyone is out to "get a mount" when they purchase crates...

When you purchase crates, you get something...regardless. Might not be an über mount but it's not as if you come up empty which you OFTEN will when you actually gamble.

Elsonso

Slick_007 wrote: »

its so big that a google search for 'sky news loot crates' only managed to return one website with that - this forum thread. Not one sky news page.

That is because you searched on "loot crate" when everything told you you should be searching for "loot boxes". I did a search when I saw that the OP did not include a link. My search for "sky news loot boxes" returned the Sky website article as the top search hit.

Samadhi wrote: »

Where it does meet the definition of gambling it is our job to ensure that children are protected and we have lots of rules in place, like age verification requirements, to do that.

Where a product does not meet that test to be classed as gambling but could potentially cause harm to children, parents will undoubtedly expect proper protections to be put in place by those that create, sell and regulate those products.

We could see something like added verification requirements when using a credit card to purchase Crowns,
or general stores no longer being able to sell Crown Cards to minors/carry them at all, but something like the Crown Store is in a relatively defensible position, as it is accessible through the game but not a core part of the game mechanics
so it may be feasible to see it receive a pass due to there being a form age verification gating (Credit Card ownership) between the realm of general gameplay and Crown Store purchase

Owning a credit card does not guarantee that the card holder may legally gamble. Also, as others have stated, not everyone rides the credit card train, and so credit cards make a poor international age gate.

Samadhi

lordrichter wrote: »

...

Samadhi wrote: »

Where it does meet the definition of gambling it is our job to ensure that children are protected and we have lots of rules in place, like age verification requirements, to do that.

Where a product does not meet that test to be classed as gambling but could potentially cause harm to children, parents will undoubtedly expect proper protections to be put in place by those that create, sell and regulate those products.

We could see something like added verification requirements when using a credit card to purchase Crowns,
or general stores no longer being able to sell Crown Cards to minors/carry them at all, but something like the Crown Store is in a relatively defensible position, as it is accessible through the game but not a core part of the game mechanics
so it may be feasible to see it receive a pass due to there being a form age verification gating (Credit Card ownership) between the realm of general gameplay and Crown Store purchase

Owning a credit card does not guarantee that the card holder may legally gamble. Also, as others have stated, not everyone rides the credit card train, and so credit cards make a poor international age gate.

My post also referred to the capacity to buy Crown cards in store, where ID could be checked

A Credit Card is generally accepted as age verification due to requirement of age 18 to legally have one

My post also explicitly refers to the scenario they list where Crown Crates are not found to meet the definition of gambling, which they said it does not
so relative age of gambling laws in an area would not apply

as it does not meet their definition of gambling, they are not legally verifying gambling, they are only legally verifying adulthood
as Crowns and ESO+ are purchased separate from the game, the area they will have to examine in terms of accessibility is the Crown system rather than the core game itself

Do not personally buy Crates, and am on the side that something needs to be done about the negative impact they have on the game
but trying not to let my personal desires cloud my view of the situation
if they had come down on the side of such Crates being gambling, would hold a more optimistic view of potential progress