State of the Hybrid

PS4_ZeColmeia

Just to focus the discussion, I'm defining a hybrid that uses stam and magicka morphed skills. This means you are actively doing damage/healing/taunting/blocking with magicka and stamina. If you happen to take a prismatic glyph or put 2 points into stamina, then, for at least this discussion, you're not a hybrid.

So I use pelinal's for a majority of my dps and tank builds (which also dps) nb and because this is my only play character (I have crafting grind alts) so as a result I have 354 skill points. This let's me take heavy, medium, and light armor 5pc builds. I also have DW, 1h&s, Destro, and Resto staff lines with crafting, guild, and world skills filled for my needs. Point is I can try a multitude of builds and approaches to playing hybrid based on the content and adapt to the content. This I also think is the key to they hybrid is that you change your bar and armor spec to meet the needs of the content. Not a requirement to be a hybrid, but I do think it is very important to being successful as a hybrid. You need almost 60-100 more skill points than a focused build counter part. I think there are enough PvE (+PVP) skill points to get to this level of points.

In my opinion, we are on the cusp of having enough CP to make hybrids truly competitive as there are enough sets built for hybrid builds and enough SP available to make them work. The biggest issues I see is about ESO being 30-40 CP in each star short of enough points to sufficiently do a crit or base damage build on both resources as a hybrid. Currently / very shortly focused builds are taking advantage of crit and base damage build. For me, in about 30-40 CP in each star we will have the focused build / hybrid parity where focused does do more damage but hybrid give it more adaptability.

Example: As a hyblade I could have steel tornado on my DW bar, and impale on my bar (weapon depends on setup). While a stamblade would have killer's blade, he doesn't have range. While a mageblade, could execute from range with impale, they have no AOE execute.

____

I would really encourage the development team to try and hit +40 CP from our current state. The changes in Morrowind and HOTR did a lot to level the ability of hybrids more successful. They are now so front loaded and the CP cap so high, that new people are hitting CP cap faster (will continue to get faster as the cap gets higher) and they are able to be focused build ready very fast. I don't believe increasing the CP cap faster than the past will impact new players as hard in the past. Hitting this cap of around 810 CP should let hybrids catch up as focused CP returns begin to drop.

At around 1050 CP we will all be hybrids, or trending heavily that way, because at that point the return for focused builds is so small but the gain on other damage types is so great it would be a waste not to pick some morphs that are more beneficial even if you're not specializing in the damage. At 1200, I think focused builds are barely better DPS and their lack of adapatability is a handicap.

I hope we can try to accelerate towards 1200. If you said how could we get there in 3 years then I think you could go 1200-690(current cap)=510/3(CP groups)=170 skill points/(3(updates with CP increases per year)*3(years to do it in))=17-20 skill points per group or 51-60 CP point increases.

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What do you think is the greatest issue facing hybrid builds and how could it get fixed?

OutLaw_Nynx

I have a serious question

Why do people want to run hybrids so badly?

PS4_ZeColmeia

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I have a serious question

Why do people want to run hybrids so badly?

Indecisive, play one character, like to be more adaptable. Any mix of the 3. In my case, it's all the above.

I like to have me drive my playstyle and I like to change setups. Being able to take the best skill choice based on how I want to play makes it easier not to make alts, because you are spec'ing for how you like to run your character. When you go hybrid you have infinite options and the meta makes less of a difference.

ToRelax

I understand hybrid builds in this game as builds which use both skills that scale with mag/spell dmg and skills that scale with stam/ weapon dmg.
You seem to make the argument that hybrids become more feasible with higher levels of CP since you can afford to invest into different damage types. I've seen that before.
However, that only decreases the penalty that the CP system puts on hybrids in the first place by forcing you to specialize. Without CP, hybrids are generally not as powerful as pure magicka/stamina builds, and full CP aren't going to change that.

Lyserus

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I have a serious question

Why do people want to run hybrids so badly?

See it as a meter...for now except tank only good builds are at the two ends of the meter...making hybrid more viable will make the builds more diverse than it ever did after soft cap removed.

ToRelax wrote: »

I understand hybrid builds in this game as builds which use both skills that scale with mag/spell dmg and skills that scale with stam/ weapon dmg.
You seem to make the argument that hybrids become more feasible with higher levels of CP since you can afford to invest into different damage types. I've seen that before.
However, that only decreases the penalty that the CP system puts on hybrids in the first place by forcing you to specialize. Without CP, hybrids are generally not as powerful as pure magicka/stamina builds, and full CP aren't going to change that.

There will be a certain point where focused CP has little use but putting them hybridly can benefit more...OP says it's 1200, I'm not too sure because I haven't done research

idk

1. And soon d tank build is a hybrid. Have not seen any sokd tank builds that were not though I'm sure someone has come uo with a pure build somewhere, just not very solid.

2. CP only plays part of the role in damage. Any point that goes into increasing magicka damage at the cost of stamina damage or vis versus being definition reduces the the competitiveness of the build.

Further, crit, max mag/stam, penetration cost reductioln and resource regen being split into two groups reduces the competitiveness of the build.

I'm not suggesting players not have fun with hybrids if that's your thing. However, outside of PvP and maybe vMA hybrids will not be competitive. The only way Zos can truly make hybrids competitive would end uo eliminating hybrids.

PS4_ZeColmeia

ToRelax wrote: »

I understand hybrid builds in this game as builds which use both skills that scale with mag/spell dmg and skills that scale with stam/ weapon dmg.
You seem to make the argument that hybrids become more feasible with higher levels of CP since you can afford to invest into different damage types. I've seen that before.
However, that only decreases the penalty that the CP system puts on hybrids in the first place by forcing you to specialize. Without CP, hybrids are generally not as powerful as pure magicka/stamina builds, and full CP aren't going to change that.

Maybe it's because I've been playing hybrid since DB, Pelinal build, but I don't view there being a penalty: armor and Mundus buff stats more than stat points, CP and stat benefits are front loaded, lots of skill points, and lots of hybrid sets.

My view is focused builds should inherently be better dummy DPS. Their strategy is burn. Hybrid is the best possible skill for the job. Hybrid, all things held equal, should just about the same gameplay DPS because the base damage or crits are equal. As a result, the concept is better skill choice let's you survive to do damage easier and do higher damage because of the better skill.

The reason I'm focusing on CP is because the current gap is the primary difference between the damage or crit being equal on both resources, at least once you optimize around drop off points.

kylewwefan

I dont know? Damages are tied so much to armor weight passives and specialized gear and maxed resources. CP is only but so much of the equation.

There’s not so much room for in between builds. It’s glass cannon or tank. Well rounded just suffers. You can make it work maybe, but you’re gonna need some real special stuff from both spectrums and probably still not gonna be where you want.

I could see maybe a hybrid with Maelstrom bow and Maelstrom lightning staff kind of working. Maybe?

firedrgn

If peninals was a 3 piece jewelry it would start making hybrids plausable . Still need some more cp tho.

usmcjdking

Pelinal's needs to equalize crit as well as spell/weapon damage.

There needs to be a larger selection of unique drops of Medium/Light armor sets that drop in their opposite jewelry enchantment (arcane, robust).

PS4_ZeColmeia

kylewwefan wrote: »

I dont know? Damages are tied so much to armor weight passives and specialized gear and maxed resources. CP is only but so much of the equation.

There’s not so much room for in between builds. It’s glass cannon or tank. Well rounded just suffers. You can make it work maybe, but you’re gonna need some real special stuff from both spectrums and probably still not gonna be where you want.

I could see maybe a hybrid with Maelstrom bow and Maelstrom lightning staff kind of working. Maybe?

Typically you think 2h utility, dw damage, 1h&s tank. That's inferno and lightning have damage bonuses and ice has defense, so it competes dw and 1h&s.

You don't have to go hybrid because weapons scale with weapon or spell damage but increase the base value of both. The issue you get is synergy with your resource stat and spell or weapon damage you use for skills and enchant/buff.

A few things hold true between focused and hybrid builds: you need a 5 pc, you need all 3 armor types equipped, and you normally need a hybrid crafting set to lift your weak side. This is why I love Pelinal, you don't sacrifice much to have a strong build.

Tommy_The_Gun

firedrgn wrote: »

If peninals was a 3 piece jewelry it would start making hybrids plausable . Still need some more cp tho.

Main problem with this set is that it relies on stacking high weapon/spell dmg in order to compensate for lower pool of magicka / stamina. Sure - there are builds that can stuck up to like 4 - 5K spell/weapon dmg - but you need to sacrifice a lot
in order to have decent amount of both weapon critic & spell critic to at least 45 - 50%.
And this Pretty much makes this kind-of a pointless set.
It would be so nice if Pelinal's Aptitude would also "copy" your spell /weapon crit and use the higher value for both...

LordSemaj

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I have a serious question

Why do people want to run hybrids so badly?

It's what Elder Scrolls Online originally promised players. Play the way you want. Pick whatever armor, skills, etc you care for and they will be effective.

Then CP, armor sets, scaling stats, and damage dependent on resources made stat-stacking the only viable option.

If there was no gear, no CP, just skill points, hybrids would be viable already since each skill would be individually balanced against the others. But when you start mixing various levels of Stamina/Magicka/weapon/spelldmg/etc into the pot, it's no longer viable to pick this skill because it does four times less damage than that skill.

GimpyPorcupine

OP is absolutely correct about CP.

The frontloading/diminishing returns of CP combined with the scaling curve for earning them means that new players can get to competitive CP levels quickly. And since each increase of the cap adjusts the curve, it means that the higher the CP cap, the quicker a new player will go from 10-160. But for players and and above the cap, each increase is somewhat "meh" because of how slight the buffs will be from the points.

It seems to make sense, then, that the higher the CP cap gets, the faster it could increase. So as an example, in 2018 the cap would increase by 45 per update, and then by 60 per update in 2019. Based on current cap, that would mean that at the end of 2018 the cap would be 825, then 1005 at the end of 2019, 135 more than at the current growth rate.

So, on my DW Magsorc, where would those 135 new points go? Of those 45 extra green points, only so many of them can go into Magician, Arcanist, and Tenacity. A few of the blue points would find their way into Physical Weapons and Mighty for those light attacks I throw for an extra chance to proc Implosion. Actually, those light attacks aren't horrible now b/c of Clever/Elegant/Kena, but I don't and likely wouldn't use any active DW skills, reserving my limited stam pool for "combat actions". Red points, I imagine, are already the most broadly distributed to protect from various types of incoming damage, so the increased earning rate would have the least impact there.

The hybrid would be able to split points evenly between Elemental Expert and Mighty, Spell Erosion and Piercing, without being too far behind the focused build.

On the extreme end, eliminate the CP cap and everyone w/3600 would have them spent the same way. That would be pretty boring.

ToRelax

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I understand hybrid builds in this game as builds which use both skills that scale with mag/spell dmg and skills that scale with stam/ weapon dmg.
You seem to make the argument that hybrids become more feasible with higher levels of CP since you can afford to invest into different damage types. I've seen that before.
However, that only decreases the penalty that the CP system puts on hybrids in the first place by forcing you to specialize. Without CP, hybrids are generally not as powerful as pure magicka/stamina builds, and full CP aren't going to change that.

Maybe it's because I've been playing hybrid since DB, Pelinal build, but I don't view there being a penalty: armor and Mundus buff stats more than stat points, CP and stat benefits are front loaded, lots of skill points, and lots of hybrid sets.

My view is focused builds should inherently be better dummy DPS. Their strategy is burn. Hybrid is the best possible skill for the job. Hybrid, all things held equal, should just about the same gameplay DPS because the base damage or crits are equal. As a result, the concept is better skill choice let's you survive to do damage easier and do higher damage because of the better skill.

The reason I'm focusing on CP is because the current gap is the primary difference between the damage or crit being equal on both resources, at least once you optimize around drop off points.

This is what one might think, but even without CP there are too many stats that only benefit either magical or physical skills. Even trying to pick up as many "hybrid" buffs as possible where you get both types of crit, max stat, penetration etc. you end up with a damage loss not worth the increased variety of skills. Thanks to Pelinal's, the worst offender here are max stat pools.
Hybrids are playable, but not competitive. CP only make this worse but less so as CP cap increases.

Edit: I am focusing on PvP in my theorycrafting, but for those who say they'd like Pelinal's to adjust crit as well: Have you tried running Pelinal's + Mechanical Acuity?

Storm_knight22

My main is a hybrid sorcerer tank, it works very well. But I have been playing it since launch and am very familiar with it , I do not imagine other players who picked it up would be able to use it as effectively as I do.

Glurin

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried building a viable hybrid build without Pelinal's? I'm just wondering if any of the newer hybrid sets opened some doors on that front or if hybrids are still practically required to use Pelinal's.

(Disclaimer for the min/maxers and metasheep. "Viable" as in "It doesn't have to top the damage meters, it just needs to be better than dead weight.")

Urza1234

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I have a serious question

Why do people want to run hybrids so badly?

Because this game doesnt have enough skills & morphs. As a stamina user half your class skills are useless to you, as a magicka user half the weapon lines are useless to you. Half the skills that are available to each resource type are terrible. Personally I thought that after 3 years I wouldnt feel so limited in this game.

PS4_ZeColmeia

ToRelax wrote: »

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

I understand hybrid builds in this game as builds which use both skills that scale with mag/spell dmg and skills that scale with stam/ weapon dmg.
You seem to make the argument that hybrids become more feasible with higher levels of CP since you can afford to invest into different damage types. I've seen that before.
However, that only decreases the penalty that the CP system puts on hybrids in the first place by forcing you to specialize. Without CP, hybrids are generally not as powerful as pure magicka/stamina builds, and full CP aren't going to change that.

Maybe it's because I've been playing hybrid since DB, Pelinal build, but I don't view there being a penalty: armor and Mundus buff stats more than stat points, CP and stat benefits are front loaded, lots of skill points, and lots of hybrid sets.

My view is focused builds should inherently be better dummy DPS. Their strategy is burn. Hybrid is the best possible skill for the job. Hybrid, all things held equal, should just about the same gameplay DPS because the base damage or crits are equal. As a result, the concept is better skill choice let's you survive to do damage easier and do higher damage because of the better skill.

The reason I'm focusing on CP is because the current gap is the primary difference between the damage or crit being equal on both resources, at least once you optimize around drop off points.

This is what one might think, but even without CP there are too many stats that only benefit either magical or physical skills. Even trying to pick up as many "hybrid" buffs as possible where you get both types of crit, max stat, penetration etc. you end up with a damage loss not worth the increased variety of skills. Thanks to Pelinal's, the worst offender here are max stat pools.
Hybrids are playable, but not competitive. CP only make this worse but less so as CP cap increases.

Edit: I am focusing on PvP in my theorycrafting, but for those who say they'd like Pelinal's to adjust crit as well: Have you tried running Pelinal's + Mechanical Acuity?

No I haven't but I'm not a fan of 2 crafted sets since you can't get both 5 pc bonuses

___


So another reason I am focusing on CP is, IMHO, currently you can't go hybrid without giving up something. I'm fine with that. The issue is CP is holding back other skills from being close to equal.

Here's a simple Pelinal's setup to demonstrate what I mean: 5pc Pelinal, 5pc ice furnace, 2pc Iceheart. You do 5pc LA to reduce cost of magicka spells, all weapon damage enchants. You'll end up with equal unbuffed weapon damage of 2800-3.3k. If you primarily spec into magicka (recommended) you're stamina skills will not hit as hard as your magicka. So what do you do?

Only pick the skills that benefit the set up. On my range bar, I put flying dagger instead of sap essence to give major brutality (+20% weapon damage) and you can add flawless dawnbreaker for +8% weapon damage. this is the bar I put impale on for a seriously hard hitting execute I can do at range

Aoe bar you put sap essence. You could, if you take all the DW passives, add steel tornado too. But here's the consideration, unlike flying blade which is primarily to buff other skills like swallow soul, steel tornado is to do damage. The problem is you do have a lower base of stamina, not enough CP to have the same penetration as spell or crit damage done, etc. That said, in execute range, dependent on a number of factors, it still "may" hit harder than sap essence and be more effective than impale due to the number of targets in execute.

So when picking steel tornado, what I am asking is the the 5kish penetration, or crit damage done, to be close to equal. I do not think, nor should they be, where you have such a strong impale and a steel tornado that's equal to a stamblade. That would be totally unfair. I do think however steel tornado vs sap essence on a hybrid should be a bit of an easier decision. With CP where it is, it's not as clear cut because you can't get to equal, competitive levels between the penetration or crit damage done on both resource types.

My thought is that accelerating towards that first milestone where that is possible is a good thing for the game.

idk

usmcjdking wrote: »

Pelinal's needs to equalize crit as well as spell/weapon damage.

There needs to be a larger selection of unique drops of Medium/Light armor sets that drop in their opposite jewelry enchantment (arcane, robust).

The builds would still lack penetration and armor passives for cost reduction/regen on one side of the equation or another leaving them less competitive compared to pure builds.

I am not suggesting hybrids would not be fun. Early days in the game stam builds were required to be hybrids unless they used only weapon line skills but that is why magicka was so strong then.

PS4_ZeColmeia

Glurin wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried building a viable hybrid build without Pelinal's? I'm just wondering if any of the newer hybrid sets opened some doors on that front or if hybrids are still practically required to use Pelinal's.

(Disclaimer for the min/maxers and metasheep. "Viable" as in "It doesn't have to top the damage meters, it just needs to be better than dead weight.")

I met some people that ran dunmer, altmer, argonian shacklebreaker and love it. Dunmer is obviously the optimal build for this set. Sets like stygian, noble duelist, etc. are good with it. That said, I kinda don't like this approach because stamina is less versatile. In this set up, I feel like you have to stress stamina skills since weapon damage scales better with high resources, where as magicka skills scales better with spell damage.

For me I just feel like the hybrid sets don't compliment the concept of hybrids, best skill at the right time and competitive damae, outside of Pelinal's for that reason.

PS4_ZeColmeia

idk wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Pelinal's needs to equalize crit as well as spell/weapon damage.

There needs to be a larger selection of unique drops of Medium/Light armor sets that drop in their opposite jewelry enchantment (arcane, robust).

The builds would still lack penetration and armor passives for cost reduction/regen on one side of the equation or another leaving them less competitive compared to pure builds.

I am not suggesting hybrids would not be fun. Early days in the game stam builds were required to be hybrids unless they used only weapon line skills but that is why magicka was so strong then.

Slightly disagree. Penetration is very, very CP dependant which is why I'm saying we need to start accelerating CP growth.

Regen is true, but that is heavily dependant on your bar set up and recovery skills. Example: I use siphoning attacks. In a DW setup, I would use 1 stam skill to weave in every so often to alleviate resource drain. If I go lightning/DW setup its less of an issue on resources, you get the easy exploiter perk, and so you just use DW as a higher damage bar while lightning has the extra penetration.

It's a lot of balancing, but works once you get it. I personally think that CP is the biggest hamstring since it does such a great job buffing focused builds.

Azurya

because we have no possiblility to get 2 5pcs-sets for a hybrid
there is no set with jewelry which would be a possibility in my opinion

Qbiken

Werewolf with Pelinial build is the closest to "Hybrid" you´ll come at the moment. Would be nice to see Pelinial set spell/wpn crit the same value as well, would be a nice buff.

PS4_ZeColmeia

Qbiken wrote: »

Werewolf with Pelinial build is the closest to "Hybrid" you´ll come at the moment. Would be nice to see Pelinial set spell/wpn crit the same value as well, would be a nice buff.

I ran that for a minute. Insanely strong, but I absolutely hate: hard to keep up solo, can't rez, no taunt, and have to break to mount up (especially important on keep runs). That, and after you get used to running in sneak as a nightblade, it is really hard to get used to only using cloak to get the same effect.

Aisle9

Ultimates damage scales on your higher stat. If you stack weapon power/spell power, but have low stats (under 25k) your ultimate damage will be laughable, which, in turn, means you will have little or no burst, which, in turn will mean you might as well have some decent sustained damage, but you will underperform compared to pure builds with 35k+ main stat.

On top of that you have the fact that you can't run potions with both Major Sorcery and Major Brutality, so, in the end, you will always only get either Major Sorcery or Major Brutality, and you will have to choose between 20% more spell damage, and 20% more weapon damage, unless there's something I don't know and Pelinal also balances buffs, but even if it did you would have to choose between having a potion that restore stamina or magicka, unless you just give up and run a tripot, but then bye bye Major Buff, which in turn will mean your sustained dps will suffer as well. Also, you would lose Major Prophecy and Major Savagery (crit), and while it's true you can get the first from Inner Light, Stamina classes still get it from the potions. Now you might argue that you can just slot both Inner Light AND Camo Hunter to get both, but that would be wasting 4 slots out of 10 (you need to double bar them), which is a lot of slots.

Additionally, skills damage also scales on your max stats, so, even with your higher Spell Damage/Weapon Damage, you will lose raw damage, which, in turn, will turn your higher weapon/spell damage in a wasted effort.

Then you have to decide which armor to run, medium for more stamina sustain or light for more magicka deeps ?

Higher CP means nothing, as the advantages cap at CP300. Having more CP would only help with the distribution, you won't be getting extra stamina/extra magicka or extra crit.

Food would also be an issue, unless you decided to just run purple tristat food, which means losing approx 1k in each stat (compared to blue food).

Lastly, you have Maelstrom weapons which add a substantial increase in dps (well, the bow does anyways), so you would have to choose which one to run and which skill to buff. Running a stamina setup in one bar and a magicka weapon in your backbar would also be pretty important, unless you can manage to sustain magicka with siphoning attacks alone, to sustain your resources (which are lower and therefore depletes quicker).

In conclusion, while a Hybrid may possibly be viable for PvP or Solo PvE, in an endgame context (vet Trials HM, or leaderboard runs), in my opinion, it will be lackluster. There are simply too many sacrifices you have to make that, in the end, it's just not worth it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your particular hybrid is rubbish, but these are some of the reasons a pure magicka or pure stamina class will perform better, IMO.

Hope this answer your question.

Chilly-McFreeze

Azurya wrote: »

because we have no possiblility to get 2 5pcs-sets for a hybrid
there is no set with jewelry which would be a possibility in my opinion

To which post is this the answer? I don't think you "need" to run two 5 pieces and a monster set as a hybrid. You could as well run 2/5/3 + 2 on DW. Or run just one monster piece, preferably one that boosts both resources like slimecraw, kena or earthgore.

If one decides to run pelinal's aptitude he is better off to invest in weapon dmg than in spell dmg as the first is easier to stack, especially combined with 5 medium armor (+12% wpn dmg).

With that in mind you could very well run 3 agility on which you can easily decide which trait you want (robust/ arcane).

Most easily completed by some monster set and 2 leki's on DW. With sharpened/ nirnhorend or precise you boost both ends again.

If you want slightly better numbers or find the original leki's weapon's traits to limiting, you can run leki on one gold jewelery and one DW weapon. But by now trait changing shouldn't be an issue.

I haven't put much thought into the newly changed vma/masters/asylum weapons since I wait out this patch.


On a sidenote, with the freshly implemented trait change one could concern the trainee set again, but I again, I ruled this out a while ago not only because of bad traits but also because the gutted the 5p bonus by 50%.

Someone asked about other sets than trainee. This video is by jackdaniels and not up to date, but it gives a good starting point:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=qF3LaYfNTaU

PS4_ZeColmeia

Aisle9 wrote: »

Ultimates damage scales on your higher stat. If you stack weapon power/spell power, but have low stats (under 25k) your ultimate damage will be laughable, which, in turn, means you will have little or no burst, which, in turn will mean you might as well have some decent sustained damage, but you will underperform compared to pure builds with 35k+ main stat.

Agree. You need to pump at least stat to 35k, which is pretty easy for magicka.

Aisle9 wrote: »

On top of that you have the fact that you can't run potions with both Major Sorcery and Major Brutality, so, in the end, you will always only get either Major Sorcery or Major Brutality, and you will have to choose between 20% more spell damage, and 20% more weapon damage, unless there's something I don't know and Pelinal also balances buffs, but even if it did you would have to choose between having a potion that restore stamina or magicka, unless you just give up and run a tripot, but then bye bye Major Buff, which in turn will mean your sustained dps will suffer as well. Also, you would lose Major Prophecy and Major Savagery (crit), and while it's true you can get the first from Inner Light, Stamina classes still get it from the potions. Now you might argue that you can just slot both Inner Light AND Camo Hunter to get both, but that would be wasting 4 slots out of 10 (you need to double bar them), which is a lot of slots.

Pelinal's scales off the highest of 2 stats therefore you focus on one or the other. If you go weapon, you apply major brutality and it functions the same as major sorcery and vice versa. You will have to carry 2 sets of pots if you switch armor sets and focus on one or the other. Other than that situation, your pots should focus on the stat you focus on.

Aisle9 wrote: »

Additionally, skills damage also scales on your max stats, so, even with your higher Spell Damage/Weapon Damage, you will lose raw damage, which, in turn, will turn your higher weapon/spell damage in a wasted effort.

Then you have to decide which armor to run, medium for more stamina sustain or light for more magicka deeps ?

Somewhat agree. Spell/weapon conversion to stats is around 10.5. So if you high stamina and low weapon damage, it can be equal to high weapon damage and low stamina. The issue is ease of doing so and skill buffs/passives. There are too many options to give a rule.

Aisle9 wrote: »

Higher CP means nothing, as the advantages cap at CP300. Having more CP would only help with the distribution, you won't be getting extra stamina/extra magicka or extra crit.

This I whole heartedly disagree. If you invest in "middle ground CP" (ie: healing done, direct damage, dots, etc.) to a reasonable level, you CANNOT invest in CP for penetration or crit, and either base elemental damage groups. This is why it is harder to be a hybrid, your damage build cannot be equal CP wise which exacerbates the resource differences between the two. This is why the CP is important.

Aisle9 wrote: »

Food would also be an issue, unless you decided to just run purple tristat food, which means losing approx 1k in each stat (compared to blue food).

1k stat is about 100 sd/wd. Not a huge deal, but another thing that compounds with the CP situation.

Aisle9 wrote: »

Lastly, you have Maelstrom weapons which add a substantial increase in dps (well, the bow does anyways), so you would have to choose which one to run and which skill to buff. Running a stamina setup in one bar and a magicka weapon in your backbar would also be pretty important, unless you can manage to sustain magicka with siphoning attacks alone, to sustain your resources (which are lower and therefore depletes quicker).

I personally find that using maelstrom/master weapon on 1 bar and dw willpower swords to be better, I mostly use magicka skills. Maelstrom daggers/axes would be a viable primary stam set up that would benefit magicka a lot.

I choose the 5pc armor type based on the skills I will use with the sets. LA: best sustain/high cost magicka, MA: stacking weapon/spell crit for (if crit) procs or high damage builds, HA: Survive/sustain/tank. The sets I use that are LA/MA/HA drive when I can use special weapons vs monster helms. The type of set doesn't drive which type of 5pc armor type I take.

Aisle9 wrote: »

In conclusion, while a Hybrid may possibly be viable for PvP or Solo PvE, in an endgame context (vet Trials HM, or leaderboard runs), in my opinion, it will be lackluster. There are simply too many sacrifices you have to make that, in the end, it's just not worth it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your particular hybrid is rubbish, but these are some of the reasons a pure magicka or pure stamina class will perform better, IMO.

Hope this answer your question.

Agree, in a pure DPS build with very little concern for anything else, pure will win. Hybrid today still requires you specialize more towards one type or the other (me being magicka). In solo PvE, PvP, PUGs, and non-highend Trials, this is great way. When I do go to something like VMOL, I will change to Scathing/IA just because for those events top tier DPS is required and that difference in performance makes a huge difference based on the content.

Outside of that, I prefer hybrid.

Tandor

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I have a serious question

Why do people want to run hybrids so badly?

You have to remember that this thread is purely about competitive play, which appeals to a small number of players, at least in respect of absolute min/maxing. Most players don't worry about min/maxing and for non-competitive players especially hybrid builds are just fine. Some of them may go on to become more competitive when they will want their builds to remain viable. Others may well start out as competitive players and want to make an unpopular build work more by way of a challenge than through any particular fondness for a certain build - or so I would imagine, based on what I've read on the forums whenever the subject of hybrids comes up.

IcyDeadPeople

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I have a serious question

Why do people want to run hybrids so badly?

A big part of the fun in this game for me at least is coming up with crazy build ideas for PVP, testing and refining them etc. There is really a lot of opportunity for builds others have not tried. Even in PVE to some extent, but I think there is more flexibility in PVP.

idk

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

idk wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Pelinal's needs to equalize crit as well as spell/weapon damage.

There needs to be a larger selection of unique drops of Medium/Light armor sets that drop in their opposite jewelry enchantment (arcane, robust).

The builds would still lack penetration and armor passives for cost reduction/regen on one side of the equation or another leaving them less competitive compared to pure builds.

I am not suggesting hybrids would not be fun. Early days in the game stam builds were required to be hybrids unless they used only weapon line skills but that is why magicka was so strong then.

Slightly disagree. Penetration is very, very CP dependant which is why I'm saying we need to start accelerating CP growth.

Regen is true, but that is heavily dependant on your bar set up and recovery skills. Example: I use siphoning attacks. In a DW setup, I would use 1 stam skill to weave in every so often to alleviate resource drain. If I go lightning/DW setup its less of an issue on resources, you get the easy exploiter perk, and so you just use DW as a higher damage bar while lightning has the extra penetration.

It's a lot of balancing, but works once you get it. I personally think that CP is the biggest hamstring since it does such a great job buffing focused builds.

It doesn't matter the source of penetration. If your getting it from CP then it's costing you twice as many points as it would with a pure build.

The same can be said for CP in general. While not as harsh as it was pre-Morrowind, it's still splitting points between elemental and physical damage (and regen as mentioned previously).

The only reason I have mentioned or posted in this thread is that OP suggested hybrids are getting close to being competitive. They may be closer but there are huge barriers due to base game design.

I also don't thing Zos needs to make them competitive. Play as you want doesn't mean everything is equal. However, I am pleased Zos has made things better for hybrids.