Stamblade Weapon Choice

Apache_Kid

Going back to my stamblade after about a month and want to use one of my asylum weapons with my Master Bow. Was wondering if people preferred the Maul, Battle axe, or Greatsword? I have all 3 and can't decide on which to use. I was leaning towards the maul but am looking for advice.

Edit: For further info I am running 5x Automaton and 5x Bone Pirate as armor and jewelry.

TimeDazzler

Axe > Maul > Sword

KingJ

I say maul Axe is better for 1v1 but open world maul better.

Apache_Kid

Duly noted. Thanks for the input both of you.

Izaki

All 3 are good.

People who say Axe is best in open world a just plain wrong though imho. Its definitely BiS in 1v1s since you can maintain a high uptime and since you only have 1 target. But in open world Cyrodiil, when you're outnumbered, your burst windows are VERY small. You won't have time to proc the Axe bleed. So as far as I'm concerned, Axe is only good in duels.

So at this point, its either Maul or Sword. Both are good. Against targets that have 16k resistances left after debuffs, they are the same. If a target has more than 16k resistances after all the debuffs have been applied (it is most likely just Major Fracture), then the Maul is better. Most Heavy Armor targets will have about 22-23k resistances. So the Maul and the Sword are very close in most situations. Now at this point, you must decide whether you encounter more opponents using damage shields or more tanks. If its the former, then use Sword, if its the latter use Maul.

And also, considering that you're using Executionnner, the Sword will buff the damage of that ability more than the Maul in most cases, due to the fact that executes scale multiplicatively with percentage modifiers (whereas all other abilities are additive).

I personally prefer the Sword since its the most versatile.

Apache_Kid

Izaki wrote: »

All 3 are good.

People who say Axe is best in open world a just plain wrong though imho. Its definitely BiS in 1v1s since you can maintain a high uptime and since you only have 1 target. But in open world Cyrodiil, when you're outnumbered, your burst windows are VERY small. You won't have time to proc the Axe bleed. So as far as I'm concerned, Axe is only good in duels.

So at this point, its either Maul or Sword. Both are good. Against targets that have 16k resistances left after debuffs, they are the same. If a target has more than 16k resistances after all the debuffs have been applied (it is most likely just Major Fracture), then the Maul is better. Most Heavy Armor targets will have about 22-23k resistances. So the Maul and the Sword are very close in most situations. Now at this point, you must decide whether you encounter more opponents using damage shields or more tanks. If its the former, then use Sword, if its the latter use Maul.

And also, considering that you're using Executionnner, the Sword will buff the damage of that ability more than the Maul in most cases, due to the fact that executes scale multiplicatively with percentage modifiers (whereas all other abilities are additive).

I personally prefer the Sword since its the most versatile.

Hmmm this is interesting. Guess I will transmute my maul and greatsword and try out both.

TheYKcid

Izaki wrote: »

And also, considering that you're using Executionnner, the Sword will buff the damage of that ability more than the Maul in most cases, due to the fact that executes scale multiplicatively with percentage modifiers (whereas all other abilities are additive).

@Izaki @Apache_Kid

The notion that swords scale better with executes is a misconception.

While it is technically true that global damage-done modifiers interact multiplicatively with execute scaling, this ignores the bigger picture of damage calculation. Let's refer to a really great thread on the topic from http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/

The base damage formula is



where



Attacker Bonus has three components



CP Bonus is typically Elemental Expert for direct damage abilities or the sum of Elemental Expert and Thaumathurge for damage over time abilities. While the majority of damage increases bonuses fall under Damage Done, such as Minor Berserk and Elemental Talent. A sizable number fall under Damage Taken. Resistance is the relevant physical or spell resistance.

Pay special attention to the first equation, for "base damage"—regardless of whether we're dealing with the "Attacker Bonus" (which contains the damage-done modifier that interacts with execute scaling), or the "(1-Mitigation)" component (which accounts for the effect of enemy resistances), all components of the equation interact multiplicatively with each other.

In other words, both swords and mauls will enjoy multiplicative scaling with executes. Choosing between the two still boils-down to whether you want to be more proficient at killing light armor-users and/or shieldstackers, or high-resistance targets (with roughly equal performance against typical medium targets).

For me the practical choice is still mauls. I don't have too many issues against shield users as a stamblade, as long as I have time to "work" my target—depleting their stam pool with repeated fears, pressuring their shields down, then dropping CC with burst when they're vulnerable. And realistically you're only losing ~3.5% damage (rather than 5%) against shields in a CP environment, since it's an additively-stacking bonus to begin with.

On the other hand, with all the builds stacking resistances to 25k and higher which I really struggle against, maul provides an absolutely huge performance increase.

Izaki

TheYKcid wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

And also, considering that you're using Executionnner, the Sword will buff the damage of that ability more than the Maul in most cases, due to the fact that executes scale multiplicatively with percentage modifiers (whereas all other abilities are additive).

@Izaki @Apache_Kid

The notion that swords scale better with executes is a misconception.

While it is technically true that global damage-done modifiers interact multiplicatively with execute scaling, this ignores the bigger picture of damage calculation. Let's refer to a really great thread on the topic from http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/

The base damage formula is



where



Attacker Bonus has three components



CP Bonus is typically Elemental Expert for direct damage abilities or the sum of Elemental Expert and Thaumathurge for damage over time abilities. While the majority of damage increases bonuses fall under Damage Done, such as Minor Berserk and Elemental Talent. A sizable number fall under Damage Taken. Resistance is the relevant physical or spell resistance.

Pay special attention to the first equation, for "base damage"—regardless of whether we're dealing with the "Attacker Bonus" (which contains the damage-done modifier that interacts with execute scaling), or the "(1-Mitigation)" component (which accounts for the effect of enemy resistances), all components of the equation interact multiplicatively with each other.

In other words, both swords and mauls will enjoy multiplicative scaling with executes. Choosing between the two still boils-down to whether you want to be more proficient at killing light armor-users and/or shieldstackers, or high-resistance targets (with roughly equal performance against typical medium targets).

For me the practical choice is still mauls. I don't have too many issues against shield users as a stamblade, as long as I have time to "work" my target—depleting their stam pool with repeated fears, pressuring their shields down, then dropping CC with burst when they're vulnerable. And realistically you're only losing ~3.5% damage (rather than 5%) against shields in a CP environment, since it's an additively-stacking bonus to begin with.

On the other hand, with all the builds stacking resistances to 25k and higher which I really struggle against, maul provides an absolutely huge performance increase.

Yes I'm quite familiar with Asayre's threads.

So you just have one mistake in there. The Maul % penetration, is only one of the numerators of the Mitigation equation. So yes, the Maul will also scale multiplicatively with Executionner, but it won't be as good as the Sword unless it grants you A LOT of penetration. That was kind of my original statement ^^

About "working" your target: at this point the Axe is by far the most effective. And since in outnumbered situations you don't have the time to "work" your targets properly, the Axe isn't that good since its RNG which could secure or not the kill. So its better to opt for either the Sword or the Maul. But shieldstackers are always going to be a pain to deal with, Sword or Maul, the former would just give you a slight advantage.

Now as for the Resistances thing. Generally, heavy armor targets will have about 22-23k Physical resistances in which case, the Sword still remains more or less the same as the Maul. Then obviously, if the dude is using a Armor proc set like Blood Spawn, the Maul is going to be better. But frankly, those guys aren't THAT common, so I prefer to stick with the Sword since it also gives me an advantage against shield stackers (which there are a lot of) while performing more or less the same as the Maul in most other cases.

TheYKcid

@Izaki

Saying a maul "won't be as good as the Sword unless it grants you A LOT of penetration" is muddying the issue, frankly.

Seeing as everything is subject to the same multiplier eventually, a maul merely has to provide more DPS through penetration—versus what the sword does through global modification—in order to outperform the sword. And the "break-even" point, at which the target's armor gives sword and maul identical performance, can be solved algebraically.

Two assumptions I'll be using:

• Caster has a total of 35% global damage bonus from CP, reducing effectiveness of sword to +3.7% DPS (reflected by the "103.7" term in the equation).
• Caster has a 2640 flat penetration bonus (reflected as +0.04 in the equation). Roughly equivalent to 29 points in the Piercing CP star (rounded-up from 2618 for ease of calculation).

Given the above, the equation thus becomes:

103.7 * (1 - x + 0.04) = 100 * (1 - 0.8x + 0.04)

where x is the resistance mitigation (in decimals) of the target, after armor debuffs.

Solving for x, we get a value of 0.1623628692. Multiplying this by 66000 (to convert it into a resistance value), we get 10716. Adding 5280 to this, to account for Major Fracture, we get:

15996. This is the value of target resistances at which a maul will have identical performance to a sword, under the above conditions. Anything higher, and the maul keeps getting better and better.

Now a target in 5/1/1 medium armor has between 16.5 - 17k resistances with major buffs up, so a maul actually performs marginally better against medium targets in this case, and MUCH better against heavy. Goes to show that you don't need a crazy niche scenario for a maul to do better.

Even a 5/1/1 light armor-user can hit 15121 physical resistance with only Major Resolve up, when min-maxed.

Trashs1

TheYKcid wrote: »

@Izaki

Saying a maul "won't be as good as the Sword unless it grants you A LOT of penetration" is muddying the issue, frankly.

Seeing as everything is subject to the same multiplier eventually, a maul merely has to provide more DPS through penetration—versus what the sword does through global modification—in order to outperform the sword. And the "break-even" point, at which the target's armor gives sword and maul identical performance, can be solved algebraically.

Two assumptions I'll be using:

• Caster has a total of 35% global damage bonus from CP, reducing effectiveness of sword to +3.7% DPS (reflected by the "103.7" term in the equation).
• Caster has a 2640 flat penetration bonus (reflected as +0.04 in the equation). Roughly equivalent to 29 points in the Piercing CP star (rounded-up from 2618 for ease of calculation).

Given the above, the equation thus becomes:

103.7 * (1 - x + 0.04) = 100 * (1 - 0.8x + 0.04)

where x is the resistance mitigation (in decimals) of the target, after armor debuffs.

Solving for x, we get a value of 0.1623628692. Multiplying this by 66000 (to convert it into a resistance value), we get 10716. Adding 5280 to this, to account for Major Fracture, we get:

15996. This is the value of target resistances at which a maul will have identical performance to a sword, under the above conditions. Anything higher, and the maul keeps getting better and better.

Now a target in 5/1/1 medium armor has between 16.5 - 17k resistances with major buffs up, so a maul actually performs marginally better against medium targets in this case, and MUCH better against heavy. Goes to show that you don't need a crazy niche scenario for a maul to do better.

Even a 5/1/1 light armor-user can hit 15121 physical resistance with only Major Resolve up, when min-maxed.

your calculation is true for chars without acces to mayor fracture.

since flat penetration calculates before the % of maul it looks kinda different.

TheYKcid

I included the effect of Major Fracture in my calculations, by accounting for it at the end of the results:

Solving for x, we get a value of 0.1623628692. Multiplying this by 66000 (to convert it into a resistance value), we get 10716. Adding 5280 to this, to account for Major Fracture, we get:

Armor debuffs like Fracture are what affect the value of the maul's passive. Flat penetration (eg. Piercing CP, which I also included in my calculations) doesn't affect this at all, although it does influence marginal benefit gained from additional penetration, which is why I felt the need to include 29 points of Piercing for realism's sake. You can view the order of calculations in the Asayre article I referenced earlier.

Builds without access to Fracture would have a break-even point at 10716 resistance (my preliminary result), making mauls the VASTLY more attractive option.

kylewwefan

I’ve been rocking a asylum Maul on my StamBlade Because that’s what I got. I think the action in Cyrodil is way to fast for to noticeable difference in these weapon types.

Some of my friends have been suggesting DW and using class abilities. They’re probably right, but smashing someone with a giant hammer looks so cool.

Apache_Kid

kylewwefan wrote: »

I’ve been rocking a asylum Maul on my StamBlade Because that’s what I got. I think the action in Cyrodil is way to fast for to noticeable difference in these weapon types.

Some of my friends have been suggesting DW and using class abilities. They’re probably right, but smashing someone with a giant hammer looks so cool.

I've was doing the DW for the longest time. It's good but I wana try something different. The only 2H ability I'm using is executioner at the moment so im still using mainly using surprise attack as my spammable since I'm running automaton. Was only able to test it for like an hour last night so I need to play around with it some more.

QuebraRegra

daggers and bow are dead?

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Izaki wrote: »

All 3 are good.

People who say Axe is best in open world a just plain wrong though imho. Its definitely BiS in 1v1s since you can maintain a high uptime and since you only have 1 target. But in open world Cyrodiil, when you're outnumbered, your burst windows are VERY small. You won't have time to proc the Axe bleed. So as far as I'm concerned, Axe is only good in duels.

So at this point, its either Maul or Sword. Both are good. Against targets that have 16k resistances left after debuffs, they are the same. If a target has more than 16k resistances after all the debuffs have been applied (it is most likely just Major Fracture), then the Maul is better. Most Heavy Armor targets will have about 22-23k resistances. So the Maul and the Sword are very close in most situations. Now at this point, you must decide whether you encounter more opponents using damage shields or more tanks. If its the former, then use Sword, if its the latter use Maul.

And also, considering that you're using Executionnner, the Sword will buff the damage of that ability more than the Maul in most cases, due to the fact that executes scale multiplicatively with percentage modifiers (whereas all other abilities are additive).

I personally prefer the Sword since its the most versatile.

Don’t forget better heals Right? With sword that is?

Edit: saw you said shields already so I removed that.

TheYKcid

^ Swords don't boost heals

Izaki

TheYKcid wrote: »

@Izaki

Saying a maul "won't be as good as the Sword unless it grants you A LOT of penetration" is muddying the issue, frankly.

Seeing as everything is subject to the same multiplier eventually, a maul merely has to provide more DPS through penetration—versus what the sword does through global modification—in order to outperform the sword. And the "break-even" point, at which the target's armor gives sword and maul identical performance, can be solved algebraically.

Two assumptions I'll be using:

• Caster has a total of 35% global damage bonus from CP, reducing effectiveness of sword to +3.7% DPS (reflected by the "103.7" term in the equation).
• Caster has a 2640 flat penetration bonus (reflected as +0.04 in the equation). Roughly equivalent to 29 points in the Piercing CP star (rounded-up from 2618 for ease of calculation).

Given the above, the equation thus becomes:

103.7 * (1 - x + 0.04) = 100 * (1 - 0.8x + 0.04)

where x is the resistance mitigation (in decimals) of the target, after armor debuffs.

Solving for x, we get a value of 0.1623628692. Multiplying this by 66000 (to convert it into a resistance value), we get 10716. Adding 5280 to this, to account for Major Fracture, we get:

15996. This is the value of target resistances at which a maul will have identical performance to a sword, under the above conditions. Anything higher, and the maul keeps getting better and better.

Now a target in 5/1/1 medium armor has between 16.5 - 17k resistances with major buffs up, so a maul actually performs marginally better against medium targets in this case, and MUCH better against heavy. Goes to show that you don't need a crazy niche scenario for a maul to do better.

Even a 5/1/1 light armor-user can hit 15121 physical resistance with only Major Resolve up, when min-maxed.

Hmm, I thought the break even point was 16k resistances after debuffs have been applied, seeing that its actually 16k before debuffs, definitely makes the Maul superior basically all the time.

TheYKcid

Unfortunately, yeah. Even against shields, you can can make a maul perform just as good as a sword through proper redistribution of CP, as mentioned in the other maul vs. greatsword thread:

Thogard wrote: »

Nirnhoned maul for a max CP user does more dmg to shields than a 2h nirnhoned sword does. That’s because if you take some of the points you would normally put in penetration and add them instead to the dmg against shield star, you’ll still have more penetration against nonshielded targets and more dmg against shielded targets...

Edit: I’m not saying dump everything extra from penetration into that one star. Spread it out among the dmg stars and tweak it according to your build. But using the “conversion rate” we get from those CP stars, 20% pen is much better than 5% dmg as long as all your damage is one type (direct dmg)
In no cp I think 2h sword is better.

Swords are underperforming across the board and I wish they'd get a buff. They're not even used in PvE anymore in favour of daggers.

Trashs1

TheYKcid wrote: »

Unfortunately, yeah. Even against shields, you can can make a maul perform just as good as a sword through proper redistribution of CP, as mentioned in the other maul vs. greatsword thread:

Thogard wrote: »

Nirnhoned maul for a max CP user does more dmg to shields than a 2h nirnhoned sword does. That’s because if you take some of the points you would normally put in penetration and add them instead to the dmg against shield star, you’ll still have more penetration against nonshielded targets and more dmg against shielded targets...

Edit: I’m not saying dump everything extra from penetration into that one star. Spread it out among the dmg stars and tweak it according to your build. But using the “conversion rate” we get from those CP stars, 20% pen is much better than 5% dmg as long as all your damage is one type (direct dmg)
In no cp I think 2h sword is better.

Swords are underperforming across the board and I wish they'd get a buff. They're not even used in PvE anymore in favour of daggers.

since i get asylum 2h axe and maul i can stop farming it

thx

is this also true for nocp? in cryo im a sotha sil player

TheYKcid

@Trashs1

You can edit the same equation to calculate for no-CP. In fact it becomes much simpler:

105 * (1 - x) = 100 * (1 - 0.8x)

(this is assuming no minor berserk, nor sources of flat penetration i.e Spriggan's)

Following the same steps as before, we arrive at a break-even point of 18480 before Major Fracture. Swords are now conclusively better against medium targets, while mauls are less effective than before against heavy ones.

You also won't run into as many stacked-resistance builds in a no-CP environment, so swords probably become the more reliable and versatile option in this scenario.

Though if you don't have access to Fracture, or allies to help you apply it, I'd still run a maul.

Trashs1

TheYKcid wrote: »

@Trashs1

You can edit the same equation to calculate for no-CP. In fact it becomes much simpler:

105 * (1 - x) = 100 * (1 - 0.8x)

(this is assuming no minor berserk, nor sources of flat penetration i.e Spriggan's)

Following the same steps as before, we arrive at a break-even point of 18480 before Major Fracture. Swords are now conclusively better against medium targets, while mauls are less effective than before against heavy ones.

You also won't run into as many stacked-resistance builds in a no-CP environment, so swords probably become the more reliable and versatile option in this scenario.

Though if you don't have access to Fracture, or allies to help you apply it, I'd still run a maul.

thx!

RajinPVP

I stacked mostly to weapon damage so i go for great swords.. since stamblade already have easy access to armor debuff i just put a little bit on penetration cp.. then just pick my target wisely. Its still up to you to decide.. like other say... if you feel like going against heavy armor people then Maul is better choice.. a 1v1 situations maybe axe bleed might put a bit of pressure if opponent cant purge it.. great sword would work best on medium or light armor players.. its also best choice for players that stacks shield.