Regarding Morrowind Chapter and new game experience

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logarifmik
logarifmik
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Recently @drkfrontiers started a thread "Morrowind is fantastic, but its position in the ESO storyline feels wrong". In particular, some people from the thread complain about how wrong Morrowind Chapter story feels, when you experience it with a new character, starting from the ship. We all know why those who bought new chapter are forced to start adventure there. Besides, it was pointed out that there is a lore-breaking moment with wayshrines (see spoiler below for brief explanation).
Spoiler
Why? Well, because Lord Corvus Direnni said that in order to use wayshrines as portals traveler's mortal soul must be "unmoored from the Mundus" (check "Wayshrines of Tamriel" by Beredalmo the Signifier for more details on the subject).
So, I want to ask the community two questions.
1) Should those who start their adventure on the ship to Vvardenfell be forbidden to use wayshrines until they lost their soul to Molag Bal?
2) Should we have a possibility to pick where to start our new adventure: at the ship as a regular slave or in the Coldharbour as a slave of the daedric prince?
Edited by logarifmik on December 10, 2017 8:06PM
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Regarding Morrowind Chapter and new game experience 99 votes

Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure.
60%
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Yes, please, forbid wayshrines for those who still have their soul intact.
5%
PlagueSDPendrillionYukon2112Ermiqplayerkiller247 5 votes
Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure and, please, forbid wayshrines for those who still have their soul intact.
18%
NewBlacksmurftheroyalestpythonnub18_ESOleeuxHuyenIluvrienI_killed_VivecVoodooPlatypusArchMikemRupzSkoomaOrjixLyserusLadislaoMAEKlogarifmikTelvanniWizardRPGplayer13579Inval1dLeocaran 18 votes
No need for any changes here, and Dragon Break can explain every possible flaw.
16%
MojmiridkDromedeElissaeRex-UmbraO_LYKOSOeildefeu91MorvaneZbigb4lifeboggoeso_nyaMehrunesFlagonNeyaneflamesingBilly2112Dunnn 16 votes
  • KeiruNicrom
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure.
    The wayshrines thing can be brushed aside as necissary mechanics that we should accept despite lore inaccuracies. Else the inability to use them could cause confusion and frustration amongst new players and vet players with new characters in Morrowind.

    But really why cant we choose where to start our adventure? The prison break is much more interesting as a tutorial in my opinion and i, as someone who normally does personal RP when i make new characters, would prefer starting out there most of the time
  • AlienatedGoat
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure.
    This will become more needed as more Chapters get added.
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  • logarifmik
    logarifmik
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure and, please, forbid wayshrines for those who still have their soul intact.
    The wayshrines thing can be brushed aside as necissary mechanics that we should accept despite lore inaccuracies. Else the inability to use them could cause confusion and frustration amongst new players and vet players with new characters in Morrowind.
    For the newcomers a special popup message after they lose their soul can be added, which will explain, that from now on they can use wayshrines for traveling all around Nirn. As for the frustrated vet players, well, they can either use quite convenient Vvardenfell traveling system or go to the mainland on the ship or with some commercial caravan, become abducted, escape Coldharbour and go back to the Vvardenfell using wayshrine, or simply choose The Wailing Prison as a starting area.
    But really why cant we choose where to start our adventure? The prison break is much more interesting as a tutorial in my opinion and i, as someone who normally does personal RP when i make new characters, would prefer starting out there most of the time
    My thoughts exactly. I do like to roleplay too. So far I only have one new character, a warden, that finished Vvardenfell questline. After this experience I think that starting new game in the daedric prison is much more interesting. For now with Morrowind Chapter as it is I don't want to start more new characters.
    Phage wrote: »
    This will become more needed as more Chapters get added.
    Exactly. It'll be very dumb if they just relocate starting area to the new territory. At very least don't allow to choose starting location for those who creates they first character on the account with the certain chapter bought. But it's a compromise, which I personally do not like at all.

    And one more thing regarding The Wailing Prison. During the tutorial in Vvardenfell Vestige acquire a free skill point. If it will become possible to choose starting location, Vestige should receive skill point after escaping prison, because otherwise it'll be one less point for those, who picks oblivion plane as a starting area. Actually, I remember a thread about this just when Morrowind Chapter arrived.
    Edited by logarifmik on December 10, 2017 10:49PM
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  • Robo_Hobo
    Robo_Hobo
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    I think it would be hard to restrict wayshrines from mortal characters, and could really confuse and frustrate new players, despite lore being a big thing to me. But I would like to choose the starting area, especially as new chapters might also have new tutorials perhaps.
  • ArchMikem
    ArchMikem
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure and, please, forbid wayshrines for those who still have their soul intact.
    Well it seems only logical.
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  • idk
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    No need for any changes here, and Dragon Break can explain every possible flaw.
    We can already choose to start in the original starting story. Unsure what the issue is. Skip the new tutorial and just go to the old story. Pretty simple and already available.
  • Runs
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    Are the waysrhines in Morrowind and Clockwork City really wayshrines as it pertains to the wayshrine lore? Or are they convenient travel methods created by the the Tribunal? They tend to be quite different than other waysrhines we encounter in the rest of Tamriel. This could be fixed by a simple lorebook about the shrines in these zones, assuming of course that there isn't already one.

    I get the inconsistency with being able to travel by 'shrine in the rest of Tamriel before losing your sole, but in a "play with your friends" set up it's kind of necessary.
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  • logarifmik
    logarifmik
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure and, please, forbid wayshrines for those who still have their soul intact.
    Runs wrote: »
    Are the waysrhines in Morrowind and Clockwork City really wayshrines as it pertains to the wayshrine lore? Or are they convenient travel methods created by the the Tribunal? They tend to be quite different than other waysrhines we encounter in the rest of Tamriel. This could be fixed by a simple lorebook about the shrines in these zones, assuming of course that there isn't already one.

    I get the inconsistency with being able to travel by 'shrine in the rest of Tamriel before losing your sole, but in a "play with your friends" set up it's kind of necessary.
    It can, and it should. If there is some way to explain it from the lore perspective, it's quite welcomed. But we should not forget about propylon chambers in the Dunmer Strongholds. As far as I remember, in Online version of Vvardenfell, we can even find an excavation site in one of the stronghold. There is a High Elf searching for propylon index. He is quite fascinated with this "technology", which (and not only this particular fact for sure) allows us to speculate that such convenient way of traveling is not common. So, if we assume that Tribunal have a special way of traveling around all the Nirn for the Vestige with intact soul personally, there should be a really good explanation for it. But regarding Sotha Sil little project everything is possible. He is a man of outstanding inventive qualities after all.
    Edited by logarifmik on December 11, 2017 6:46AM
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  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    I just want that skill point they get >.>
  • ThePrinceOfBargains
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    Who cares? The fact that we’re using wayshrines is not acknowledged by Morrowind’s story, or any of the story for that matter. Not every little thing we do in the game needs a lore-friendly mechanic or explanation. Chalk it up to non-canon real-time shenanigans.
    Edited by ThePrinceOfBargains on December 11, 2017 7:08AM
  • PlagueSD
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    Yes, please, forbid wayshrines for those who still have their soul intact.
    Actually, wayshrines aren't really needed in Vvardenfell. They have their own "Bug" transport system (Silt Striders) to get around the island. I have no issues "deactivating" wayshrines until you do the Coldharbor intro quest.


    Striders_Route_Vvardenfell_ESO_Morrowind.jpg
  • Riddari
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure.
    I want all wayshrines gone but I fully understand why that won't happen and don't honestly expect them to cater to my preference.

    I would love, however, a plethora of tutorials that we could choose from. Maybe one for each alliance. Ideally one for each zone or race. Again, I understand this isn't a priority and I don't expect them to do this. It would be awesome, though.
  • MLGProPlayer
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    There is a lot more lore-breaking stuff in there than the presence of wayshrines (see spoiler):
    Spoiler
    What happens when you beat Orsinium and the Prophet tells you that you need to go to the Clockwork City next to stop a Daedric war from breaking out? You already entered the CWC and stopped the first plot in that conflict as part of the Morrowind story... Does this mean you travelled back in time to complete the Orsinium story?
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on December 11, 2017 7:33AM
  • Glurin
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    Didn't you know? The ship captain was a daedra. Part of the price for transport was your soul.

    ....You did read the fine print before paying for your ticket, right?
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."
  • Iluvrien
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure and, please, forbid wayshrines for those who still have their soul intact.
    Basic consistency please.

    Want to introduce a fast-travel system that uses a specific lore-based construct? Fine. Do so.

    Want to ignore that concept as soon as the mechanics get sticky? Nope. Try again.
  • MasterSpatula
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure.
    Storywise, you're right. Not only should the PC not be able to travel by wayshrine, but he/she shouldn't be effectively immortal until their visit to the Wailing Prison.

    This is that rare time that I'm going to say gameplay trumps storytelling, though. Not letting players who start on Vvardenfell use the mechanics of the game is just a bad idea.
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  • TelvanniWizard
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure and, please, forbid wayshrines for those who still have their soul intact.
    Canon please.
  • Varana
    Varana
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    That wayshrine bit of lore has been conveniently ignored since launch, it's not just a Morrowind problem. Or are you banned from using wayshrines once you reclaim your soul in Coldharbour?

    I'm all for forcing the players to actually do all the quests ;) but this is an MMO, so it's not going to happen. So if anything, they maybe should reconsider their lore excuse for the wayshrines.
  • logarifmik
    logarifmik
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure and, please, forbid wayshrines for those who still have their soul intact.
    Who cares? The fact that we’re using wayshrines is not acknowledged by Morrowind’s story, or any of the story for that matter. Not every little thing we do in the game needs a lore-friendly mechanic or explanation. Chalk it up to non-canon real-time shenanigans.
    Well, apparently around 50 users here on the forum do care about such "shenanigans" of devs. :)
    PlagueSD wrote: »
    Actually, wayshrines aren't really needed in Vvardenfell. They have their own "Bug" transport system (Silt Striders) to get around the island. I have no issues "deactivating" wayshrines until you do the Coldharbor intro quest.
    That is exactly what I'm talking about! Otherwise, why such convenient system even exists? Just for one achievement? Nonsense.
    Riddari wrote: »
    I would love, however, a plethora of tutorials that we could choose from. Maybe one for each alliance. Ideally one for each zone or race. Again, I understand this isn't a priority and I don't expect them to do this. It would be awesome, though.
    That definitely would be a great addition, which will never see even ETA most likely. Sad, but I guess money rule the Nirn, and such small things don't look profitable.
    There is a lot more lore-breaking stuff in there than the presence of wayshrines (see spoiler):
    Spoiler
    What happens when you beat Orsinium and the Prophet tells you that you need to go to the Clockwork City next to stop a Daedric war from breaking out? You already entered the CWC and stopped the first plot in that conflict as part of the Morrowind story... Does this mean you travelled back in time to complete the Orsinium story?
    For those who didn't saw your remarkable note regarding chronology, I post it here.
    If you talk to every NPC/read all books, you can also very clearly see the chronology of events.

    For any new players, it's:

    1. Main story
    2. Orsinium
    3. Dark Brotherhood
    4. Morrowind
    5. Clockwork City

    Thieve's Guild and Craglorn happen outside of the main story arc.
    That is a real scenario overlook here. If it's not an overlook, then I fail to understand why it was made, when marketing is not taken into account.
    Glurin wrote: »
    Didn't you know? The ship captain was a daedra. Part of the price for transport was your soul.

    ....You did read the fine print before paying for your ticket, right?
    A truly amusing joke, but quite bad hypothesis. ;)
    Storywise, you're right. Not only should the PC not be able to travel by wayshrine, but he/she shouldn't be effectively immortal until their visit to the Wailing Prison.
    Hey, you are digging too deep! :D
    Varana wrote: »
    That wayshrine bit of lore has been conveniently ignored since launch, it's not just a Morrowind problem. Or are you banned from using wayshrines once you reclaim your soul in Coldharbour?
    Well, I see at least one way to explain it. You see, Lord Corvus Direnni's words "unmoored from the Mundus" sound quite ambiguous. Please, correct me if I'm wrong (English isn't my native), but they does not precisely mean that traveler should have no soul in Mundus at all, right? I mean that's a little vague. What's the computer analysis? Something should be out of normal with it, yes... And Vestige is abnormal for sure. Anyway, I believe that a decent explanation can be found.
    Edited by logarifmik on December 11, 2017 7:26PM
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  • Juju_beans
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure.
    When I created my warden it seemed logical with the new starting zone.
    But recently I created a DK and it felt off. I just did enough to get some gear and went to my starting zone and started questing. Somehow I missed going to cold harbor until I was like level 15 or so and flew through that and now I have the main quest in my journal. Kept looking for some NPC to send me there and finally got it at level 15.

    Go figure.
  • Iccotak
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    Phage wrote: »
    This will become more needed as more Chapters get added.

    I think Zenimax is going to have to conisder changing the storylines in the base game zones with each major Chapter much like how WoW does with each major expansion.
    I mean the invasion by Molag Bal can't go on forveer. They're going to have to change it up.
    (Plus wouldn't it be cool if the game has more of a sense of history to it? Imagine telling a new player that you were there when Molag Bal was invading and you had to fight his daedric forces)
    The wayshrines thing can be brushed aside as necissary mechanics that we should accept despite lore inaccuracies. Else the inability to use them could cause confusion and frustration amongst new players and vet players with new characters in Morrowind.

    But really why cant we choose where to start our adventure? The prison break is much more interesting as a tutorial in my opinion and i, as someone who normally does personal RP when i make new characters, would prefer starting out there most of the time

    I agree that the Prison escape in Coldharbor is far more interesting and Epic. Maybe with the next major chapter we can get another cool intro?
  • Onefrkncrzypope
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    Fudge dragon break just vivec that nonsense... You are my champion my eyes and ears must reach all of vvardenfell.... Done
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  • monktoasty
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure.
    Cp 215 stI'll haven't started cold harbor so I do not think forcing people to do cold harbor is the way to go.

  • Danikat
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure.
    Wayshrines are the only thing that marginally reduced the frustration of being forced to start in Morrowind - as soon as I got out of the tutorial I could wayshrine to my character's main city and start the story I actually wanted to be doing first. It still bothers me that technically that bit of the Morrowind story happened first, but at least I could keep it as minimal as possible.

    If they give us the option to choose where to start then I wouldn't mind wayshrines being disabled, although I don't really see the benefit since in situations where players care about the lore consistency they're likely to be doing the story in order anyway, and when they don't it would just be an annoying restriction. (And those can be the same players - on my main characters I'm making sure to do everything in order, but I don't care if my crafter goes to Coldharbour to collect materials or find a treasure chest before reaching that point in the story because he's probably never going to do the story anyway.)

    But I absolutely want the option to choose where my characters start. It's too late to be worth re-doing my warden so I'll just have to ignore the inconsistency with her, but in future I'd like to be able to do them properly, not start at whatever point ZOS currently wants to advertise.
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  • PlagueSD
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    Yes, please, forbid wayshrines for those who still have their soul intact.
    Varana wrote: »
    That wayshrine bit of lore has been conveniently ignored since launch, it's not just a Morrowind problem. Or are you banned from using wayshrines once you reclaim your soul in Coldharbour?

    Actually, they can get around that particular issue using Meridia's Light. It has the power to hide your soul.

    From Caldwell's Silver:
    Touch Meridia's Light and see the world through the eyes of your former enemies.

    But fair warning: You will no longer be seen as a great champion. Even familiar faces will see you as a soulless drifter, lost in an unfamiliar land. What say you?
  • Valen_Byte
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    Sounds to me like you simply have to be in a state or have been in a state where you are not attached to any Mundus in order to use the shrines. We are in this state when we enter the world no matter where we spawn in. We do not start with a Mundus stone active. You also need to "discover" each one (wayshrine) in order to use them. Discovering them adds them to your "web" of shrines that you can use.

    In short, I dont think it has anything to do with your soul. Its all about the mundus and the shrines and how they work together. I would have asked why we can use them now that we have our a Mundus stome attached to us. But, it does say that "temporarily or permanently, "unmoored from the Mundus."" So, I take that to mean, we were "temporarily" unmoored from the mundus when we came to tamriel.

    My 2 cents : ))
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  • MasterSpatula
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure.
    Oh, by the way, I'd just like to point out that, when discussing MMOs, "New Game Experience" is a pretty loaded term.
    Edited by MasterSpatula on December 12, 2017 12:38AM
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  • logarifmik
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure and, please, forbid wayshrines for those who still have their soul intact.
    PlagueSD wrote: »
    Actually, they can get around that particular issue using Meridia's Light. It has the power to hide your soul.
    I knew there is a decent way to explain it.
    Valen_Byte wrote: »
    Sounds to me like you simply have to be in a state or have been in a state where you are not attached to any Mundus in order to use the shrines. We are in this state when we enter the world no matter where we spawn in. We do not start with a Mundus stone active. You also need to "discover" each one (wayshrine) in order to use them. Discovering them adds them to your "web" of shrines that you can use.

    In short, I dont think it has anything to do with your soul. Its all about the mundus and the shrines and how they work together. I would have asked why we can use them now that we have our a Mundus stome attached to us. But, it does say that "temporarily or permanently, "unmoored from the Mundus."" So, I take that to mean, we were "temporarily" unmoored from the mundus when we came to tamriel.

    My 2 cents : ))
    If I understand you correctly, "attached to the Mundus" in your opinion have nothing to do with the soul and with it's connection to the Mundus as a plane of realm? Well, sounds like a very interesting hypothesis, but it doesn't solve the problem. We still need strict conformation from the lore. Something like "you are the Crippled Chosen One or there was some really nasty thing in your past, and that's why you are "unmoored from the Mundus", whatever that means", but we have none for those who starts in Vvardenfell.
    Oh, by the way, I'd just like to point out that, when discussing MMOs, "New Game Experience" is a pretty loaded term.
    What do you mean by "pretty loaded term"? Do you mean that world changes constantly, because other players roaming around? Or something else?
    Edited by logarifmik on December 12, 2017 4:35PM
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  • MrKit
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    monktoasty wrote: »
    Cp 215 stI'll haven't started cold harbor so I do not think forcing people to do cold harbor is the way to go.

    First of all, the original game forced it as that is how it was created to start.

    Most game starts are by their very nature, forced upon the player. We were forced to wake up in Doc WhatsHisFace's office in New Vegas until mods changed that. We were forced to watch our birth in Fallout 3. We were forced to start in a prison in Oblivion until mods changed that. We were forced to start in a Vault in Fallouts 1 & 2. We were forced to take our family into a vault in Fallout 4. It's like we're being preprogrammed to do these things. We were forced to arrive in a ship in Morrowind. We were forced to start in specific ways in Arena, Daggerfall and Battlespire. I just haven't played them enough to recall.

    So, may the force be with you.

    When the chapters are being developed, the devs naturally want to test the new features with as many players as possible. So, they force them to start in the new locations. I get that. They also want to show off their new stuff. Granted. But once they are tested and we've seen the new starting locations, many of us long for the good old days when we were prison scum. The story made sense. It might not have smelled great. We were rooming with skeletons, but the story had a beginning that worked. We were dead and happy to know it. You might say we were the grateful dead and soulless to boot. That Lyris was a hottie, despite the scars and prison-sewn clothing.

    Secondly, most of us are talking about choice here. Give us the simple OPTION to start our characters the original way. For instance, there's an option right now if you have already done the tutorial. It asks you whether you want to skip the tutorial. So, when you get ready to start a new character, it could ask you, A,B,C, Start in Morrowind Chapter, Summerset Chapter or the way the devs intended from the start. No force.

    May the force NOT be with you.
  • srfrogg23
    srfrogg23
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    Yes, allow me to pick where start my adventure.
    I’m not overly concerned with it myself, but I think giving players the option to start where they want would be healthy for the game in the long run.
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