Fixes that will make gambling clearly ethical

ChaosWotan

1) give ESO owners an option to disable the crate gambling system, either forever or at 3/6/12 month intervals.

2) new buyers who want to purchase the game on the internet must not only have a credit card which shows that they are 18 years old, but must also provide a telephone number which is registered in the same name as the card, and then confirm via sms that they have received a message from ESO clearly notifying them that the game includes gambling. Parents will then notice it if their kids have used their card, and will also know the risk involved if they let their kids play the game (preferably with gambling disabled, as an extra parents control).

3) create a two tier crate gambling system: one level with good odds and relatively cool items for those with normal credit cards, with a limit on how much you can spend each month, that can be adjusted if you show ZOS that you are good for it. And then a second level with exclusive items for people who have credit cards that you can only get if you have high income.

4) put a gambling warning on the cover of the disc version of the game.

If ZOS starts to feel serious pressure from anti-gambling lobbyists and lawmakers, the company can neutralise it by implementing the above.

Tan9oSuccka

5. Don’t buy them if you can’t control yourself.

Seriously people. I love Barbie stuff as much as the next person but it’s time to put on the big boy pants and be an adult.

DarkAedin

#nocrowncrates
Wouldnt u rather buy the item u want rather then gamble for it?
This is a video game, i dont come here to gamble, i come to play an mmo.
They have made $0.00 off me since they started this farce. Before crown crates i was buying up the crown store items left and right.
Food for thought.

Turelus

Or just stop treating gamers like mugs and start selling thing to us directly again.

rhapsodious

You're... pretty hung up on this.

Regardless of your personal feelings about them, crown crates aren't going away, and ZOS isn't going to shoot themselves in the foot with all these disclaimers and hurdles unless required by law.

zyk

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

5. Don’t buy them if you can’t control yourself.

Seriously people. I love Barbie stuff as much as the next person but it’s time to put on the big boy pants and be an adult.

It's easy to say that, but you're talking about something that has been recognized as psychologically exploitative for centuries. Societies heavily regulate games of chance because they offer little or no value to society, but create enormous problems.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

ugh...this again...here have this.

magictucktuck

DarkAedin wrote: »

#nocrowncrates
Wouldnt u rather buy the item u want rather then gamble for it?
This is a video game, i dont come here to gamble, i come to play an mmo.
They have made $0.00 off me since they started this farce. Before crown crates i was buying up the crown store items left and right.
Food for thought.

You play inventory online?

Hokiewa

#3 is hilarious but I figure that was your intent. ZOS is not in a position to judge (nor should they be) somebody's credit worthiness, they are not a banking institution. They provide goods and services, not credit evaluations. Seriously, I did laugh...alot.

Milvan

Really why people make such a big deal about crown crates?

I got like 45 crown crates when the astronach was released because they actually look sick and I was sitting in a lot of crowns. After that they were just meh and I didn't touch them anymore.

My gameplay experience is the same: with or without crown crates.

Tan9oSuccka

zyk wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

5. Don’t buy them if you can’t control yourself.

Seriously people. I love Barbie stuff as much as the next person but it’s time to put on the big boy pants and be an adult.

It's easy to say that, but you're talking about something that has been recognized as psychologically exploitative for centuries. Societies heavily regulate games of chance because they offer little or no value to society, but create enormous problems.

You’re not wrong. I think casinos are every bit as terrible.

I can see someone rolling a few crates after budgeting free monthly crowns with ESO plus. I have no issues with that. Key word in that sentence “budgeting”. Not dip into the monthly mortgage fund for the sake of random vanity items.

Because casinos and crown crates are there, doesn’t mean you HAVE TO patronize them.

I sure don’t.

yttoks

The temperance movement in the early 20th century had nothing but good intentions. All they achieved with the hardcore method was Al Capone.

Bill Wilson saved a whole lot of lives with his.

If this sort of solution worked, I'd be for it even if I do find it unfair to the people who don't have problems. But it doesn't work, so I don't. There are solutions, but they don't involve Senators and Representatives.

ChaosWotan

@DarkAedin

Most people who have been active on this forum last week prb know my personal opinion about equal opportunity to acquire items within a game, without reviving that particular debate again. But if one puts on the hat of a professional moral philosopher, and in that way try to be more "objective" about the purely ethical aspect of crate gambling, then I doubt that anyone who is opposed to gambling in games can find anything morally wrong with it, if ZOS implements the fixes mentioned in the OP. It's just a suggestion though, my two cents.

@rhapsodious

You're... pretty hung up on this

I'm a nerd, interested in moral philosophy, so...

zyk

People are imperfect. Everyone has significant flaws. Some people are extremely vulnerable to games of chance. It's fact.

At a personal level, we do need to hold each other accountable for the poor decisions we make, but at a societal level, we need to manage ourselves according to practical realities.

I don't think Crates are going to ruin any lives by themselves, but some people who are vulnerable to this kind of thing are probably going thousands of dollars into debt, causing a myriad of derivative social issues in their lives and the lives around them. As we are all interconnected, one way or another, we all feel that, and we all suffer.

We live in a darkening time for contemporary Western society. We see this shadow cast over recreational environments like this in different ways such as apathy towards gambling, cheating and other forms of exploitation.

Elsonso

For a person who says that they have not played in 5 months, you are spending a lot of time in here making topics about Crown Crates. Don't get me wrong, you bought the game, you can make forum posts on the subject. But... why are you?

ChaosWotan wrote: »

1) give ESO owners an option to disable the crate gambling system, either forever or at 3/6/12 month intervals.

What possible reason would ZOS or Bethesda have for doing this? Why would an ESO Plus person care? Just to not see them?

The thing with the credit card verification might address some child usage, but it is like the age gate on the website. Not foolproof. Kids can lie just as effectively as adults. Parents can easily pay credit card bills without looking at the itemization, and if they need the credit card company to tell them their kid is gambling, there is more that needs to be fixed than this can address.

As for the idea about replacing one Crown Crate system with two of them? Placing one of them behind a credit check? That is not going to happen, and it would be worse if it did.

ChaosWotan wrote: »

4) put a gambling warning on the cover of the disc version of the game.

If anything happens in the industry with loot boxes, it will be this. It won't change ESO because ESO will be below the criteria.

ak_pvp

As stated. Control yourselves. Needless regulation/government laws are terrible. Why do you think law makers treat the people like mugs?

Do you want advertising to be banned, how about catchy music. All psychologically stimulating.

List the percentages and say "features in game purchases including randomized boxes." and let parents decide.

r3turn2s3nd3r

ChaosWotan wrote: »

3) create a two tier crate gambling system: one level with good odds and relatively cool items for those with normal credit cards, with a limit on how much you can spend each month, that can be adjusted if you show ZOS that you are good for it. And then a second level with exclusive items for people who have credit cards that you can only get if you have high income.

I have one credit card for emergency purposes only. I have high disposable income, i am financially responsible. You are saying I am not entitled to your tier 2 crates proposal because i CHOOSE to not have some 'elite' credit card?

Sorry. No.

billp_ESO

What is legally required of real gambling machines, like slot machines?

They have to publish the chances of winning. They have to demonstrate that those chances are real.

ESO doesn't do any of those things. We have no idea what the chances are of winning anything. We don't even know if the chances are the same from roll to roll. ESO could be manipulating the results in any way they want to, and we'd never know.

This isn't even really gambling, it;s just a shot in the dark, if you don't even know what your chances are, or if the chances are legitimate.

Fleshreaper

It's NOT gambling. You are paying money and you are GETTING something. That something you get is random and it may not be what you wanted but you still got something for your money. Gambling, you have a very good chance of getting nothing. If you don't want to spend your money on crown potions and scroll, then don't buy the crate.

ookami007

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

5. Don’t buy them if you can’t control yourself.

Seriously people. I love Barbie stuff as much as the next person but it’s time to put on the big boy pants and be an adult.

Your logic failure happens when you accept the reality that not everyone who plays ESO IS an adult. Without any REAL age verification, you do have children playing this game who cannot "put on the big boy pants and be an adult".

If they are going to continue the gambling, they need to have an accurate age verification system in place and strictly enforced. It ALSO means that minors (under 18) would not be able to play EVEN WITH PARENTAL permission - just like at casinos.

For the adults, I agree with you. Time to take some responsibilities for your actions.

Of course, different countries have different laws and if ESO wants to continue to offer their services in those countries, they need to adhere to those laws. But I don't see why they can't offer localization options where the gambling is turned off or curtailed to adhere to those laws.

Niobium

ChaosWotan wrote: »

2) new buyers who want to purchase the game on the internet must not only have a credit card which shows that they are 18 years old, but must also provide a telephone number which is registered in the same name as the card, and then confirm via sms that they have received a message from ESO

No. Just no. On so many levels. I am NOT giving my personal information or credit card information over to a gaming company. Why would you do that? You don't like loot crates but you gamble with your personal information??

Why do you get to decide what I can and can't spend my money on just because you can't control your spending habits to get a sparkly mount and a new costume?

Got a gambling problem and this affects you? Do NOT be here. Find a game where there is no gambling whatsoever. Why risk your recovery on an MMO?

Got kids? This isn't rated for kids. It's not up to the company to parent a child.

Don't like Crown Crates? Boycott the company. Stop giving them money. Stop playing the game. You being in game advertises this game for any new comer because they see how populated it is. If you continue to play then you endorse every facet of the game. The biggest impact any consumer can have is via money - so if you truly believe it, put that where your mouth is and GTFO.

Meanwhile, I'm buying some crates.

ChaosWotan

@lordrichter

I returned after five months, was going to check the fire apex mounts, hoping they were much better than the two last crate seasons before that, but then discovered that ESO has started with radiant mounts, which is pure gambling. Since I love ESO, and have the game as a hobby, but not enough new content in the last DLCs to play the game more than 3-4 weeks, I write in this forum instead, because I'm interested in both ESO and moral/judicial philosophy. Like other nerds I'm pretty meticulous when a topic catches my attention. Guess many of you guys are familiar with that too.

Why should ESO be interested in the above fixes? Read the last sentence in the OP again. IF the moral and legal pressure against crate gambling becomes a serious threat to this source of income, ESO can avoid it by simply tweaking the crate gambling system and give it a few upgrades. We in the anti-gambling group must then shut up, from a purely ethical perspective, even when we are against the new trend where factors outside the game determine which items you can get inside the game.

Mojmir

Fleshreaper wrote: »

It's NOT gambling. You are paying money and you are GETTING something. That something you get is random and it may not be what you wanted but you still got something for your money. Gambling, you have a very good chance of getting nothing. If you don't want to spend your money on crown potions and scroll, then don't buy the crate.

You get something free in the casino too, its called a beverage. Lol

Tan9oSuccka

ookami007 wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

5. Don’t buy them if you can’t control yourself.

Seriously people. I love Barbie stuff as much as the next person but it’s time to put on the big boy pants and be an adult.

Your logic failure happens when you accept the reality that not everyone who plays ESO IS an adult. Without any REAL age verification, you do have children playing this game who cannot "put on the big boy pants and be an adult".

If they are going to continue the gambling, they need to have an accurate age verification system in place and strictly enforced. It ALSO means that minors (under 18) would not be able to play EVEN WITH PARENTAL permission - just like at casinos.

For the adults, I agree with you. Time to take some responsibilities for your actions.

Of course, different countries have different laws and if ESO wants to continue to offer their services in those countries, they need to adhere to those laws. But I don't see why they can't offer localization options where the gambling is turned off or curtailed to adhere to those laws.

In this case, Parents are responsible for the actions of their children. The game is rated M for Mature.

In order to pay for excess crates, they would need access to a credit card which would need to be supplied by an adult.

I’m not sticking up for the crate practice, but parents need to keep tabs on their devil spawns and adults need to adult.

Elsonso

Fleshreaper wrote: »

It's NOT gambling. You are paying money and you are GETTING something. That something you get is random and it may not be what you wanted but you still got something for your money. Gambling, you have a very good chance of getting nothing. If you don't want to spend your money on crown potions and scroll, then don't buy the crate.

Yeah, it is gambling.

r3turn2s3nd3r

ChaosWotan wrote: »

@lordrichter

We in the anti-gambling group must then shut up, from a purely ethical perspective, even when we are against the new trend where factors outside the game determine which items you can get inside the game.

Yet in item 3 you explicitly endorse that my 'outside' world credit status dictate what i'm allowed to get 'inside' the game.

Sorry, but that's nothing short of pure hypocrisy.

Huyen

ChaosWotan wrote: »

1) give ESO owners an option to disable the crate gambling system, either forever or at 3/6/12 month intervals.

2) new buyers who want to purchase the game on the internet must not only have a credit card which shows that they are 18 years old, but must also provide a telephone number which is registered in the same name as the card, and then confirm via sms that they have received a message from ESO clearly notifying them that the game includes gambling. Parents will then notice it if their kids have used their card, and will also know the risk involved if they let their kids play the game (preferably with gambling disabled, as an extra parents control).

3) create a two tier crate gambling system: one level with good odds and relatively cool items for those with normal credit cards, with a limit on how much you can spend each month, that can be adjusted if you show ZOS that you are good for it. And then a second level with exclusive items for people who have credit cards that you can only get if you have high income.

4) put a gambling warning on the cover of the disc version of the game.

If ZOS starts to feel serious pressure from anti-gambling lobbyists and lawmakers, the company can neutralise it by implementing the above.

Point 2 will be hard, as here in my country without a steady job its near impossible to get a credit-card in the first place. Besides that, people got their own responsibility as well. Cant take all of it out of their hands.

Hokiewa

lordrichter wrote: »

Fleshreaper wrote: »

It's NOT gambling. You are paying money and you are GETTING something. That something you get is random and it may not be what you wanted but you still got something for your money. Gambling, you have a very good chance of getting nothing. If you don't want to spend your money on crown potions and scroll, then don't buy the crate.

Yeah, it is gambling.

Not by the legal definition in the U.S. it isn't, not remotely.

idk

Since it came out some groups were considering legislating crates sold in game, not that anyone has actually made them illegal in recent weeks nor expected to anytime soon, so many consider themselves experts.

OP, the crates are not illegal in most areas ATM. No changes are required. If and when that changes we have no idea how it will change to know how things need to be different.

It's a long way off before anything happens anyhow.

AlienSlof

Turelus wrote: »

Or just stop treating gamers like mugs and start selling thing to us directly again.

^ This. ^

Just get rid of the gamble crates altogether.

Woeler

ookami007 wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

5. Don’t buy them if you can’t control yourself.

Seriously people. I love Barbie stuff as much as the next person but it’s time to put on the big boy pants and be an adult.

Your logic failure happens when you accept the reality that not everyone who plays ESO IS an adult. Without any REAL age verification, you do have children playing this game who cannot "put on the big boy pants and be an adult".

If they are going to continue the gambling, they need to have an accurate age verification system in place and strictly enforced. It ALSO means that minors (under 18) would not be able to play EVEN WITH PARENTAL permission - just like at casinos.

For the adults, I agree with you. Time to take some responsibilities for your actions.

Of course, different countries have different laws and if ESO wants to continue to offer their services in those countries, they need to adhere to those laws. But I don't see why they can't offer localization options where the gambling is turned off or curtailed to adhere to those laws.

This game is PEGI 18. Meaning that any kid below that age playing this game is outside of the group the game is legally responsible for. If parents allow their kids, THEY are responsible. This is why these PEGI ratings are there in the first place. If a parent allows their kids to play games that are rated above their age, bypassing the age-gate that the game does have, then this parent IS responsible. In no way is a company responsible for or should they cater to doing business with someone who deliberately lies about meeting the requirements to be able to play or buy their product. You can't just go outside of the pre-defined legal boundaries of this product, then present a situation that clearly falls outside of these boundaries, and then present it as an argument.