Animation cancelling

exeeter702

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

And this is why ESO combat looks like ***.

animation canceling should have never been allowed to exist and fixed immediately when found out was possible in eso.
it has ruined PvP and added some serious lagg. do i have proof of it in video form? yes i do. will i put this video here as proof? no, because that would break forum rules of naming and shaming and also strengthen the belief that if someone makes a statement here on this forum that they Must show proof or their claim is false.

fact of the matter is that eso animation canceling is poison to its combat system.

/facepalm

Gilvoth

Kalante wrote: »

If there was no animation cancelling so many people would quit because the combat will become so slow. It already is with all of the heavy attack nonsense.

not at all, the only thing they would do, is what they allways do:
they would find another way to cheat and exploit the mechanics on eso combat system.

Gilvoth

when i see people killed me in under 1 second and i look at the death recap and it shows MANY hits from several skills that all landed in 1 hit in under 1 second, and i know for a fact i was not lagging, thats from hyper animation canceling that was done with a macro.

exeeter702

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

when i see people killed me in under 1 second and i look at the death recap and it shows MANY hits from several skills that all landed in 1 hit in under 1 second, and i know for a fact i was not lagging, thats from hyper animation canceling that was done with a macro.

Ffs man.... i give up

Lexxypwns

exeeter702 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

when i see people killed me in under 1 second and i look at the death recap and it shows MANY hits from several skills that all landed in 1 hit in under 1 second, and i know for a fact i was not lagging, thats from hyper animation canceling that was done with a macro.

Ffs man.... i give up

Hyper animation canceling, not to be confused with super, mega, or ultra animation canceling

DeathHouseInc

It's a really fun combat mechanic isn't it? So much fun and makes fights more exciting. You'll have a blast with light hvy weaving too. Another really cool combat feature of this game.

Malic

The part I never understood was why would a game company invest the time and resources into the animation if they also developed a mechanic to cancel it?

Thats like filling a gas tank with a hole in it, whats the point exactly?

You have to conclude that it was accidental, which I dont believe ani canceling has been around for a while. Or it was a mistake. Or, its in be design to allow people with the patience to learn how to do it and take advantage.

Id rather simply not have the animation at all if it can be canceled but as a PVP player I am a blatant hypocrite so you bet I ani cancel. The real problem becomes, its another means to zergging.

Meaning joe casual doesnt put in the same time I do into PVP but fridays his guild runs in cyro. Joe doesnt want to be a scrub, but doesnt want to spend HOURS and HOURS perfecting a pvp rotation. He wants to do his dailies, shoot the poop in guild chat and run in cyrodiil.

So you think hes going to go run around solo looking for other solos to improve his PVP skill rotations? Nope, hes logging on typing "lfg" and either heading to alessia bridge, the nik to ash circle jerk or maybe he's doing the bleaks, ales chalman shuffle.

I dont run trials, I know people who do and they claim without ani canceling they cant procure enough DPS to compete for spots in their trial guilds.

So what about joe casual? Ya we like to pick on them a bit, but these are the whales that are keeping the lights on and zos appears to be throwing another hurdle up for them with this.

Again, why make the animation if it can be canceled?

CyrusArya

Malic wrote: »

Again, why make the animation if it can be canceled?

Because you don’t actually cancel the animation. There aren’t invisible attacks happening. Animation ‘Cancelling’ is a misnomer. There was a time when abilities could be rendered invisible. But that was patched and weaving implemented such that skills are always visible no matter how they are used. And in doing so, ZOS legitimized Animation ‘Cancelling’.

The more accurate term would be Animation ‘Blending’. Blending a skill seamlessly into another action. That’s what it is, not exactly ‘cancelling’ the animation.

Flameheart

CyrusArya wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Again, why make the animation if it can be canceled?

Because you don’t actually cancel the animation. There aren’t invisible attacks happening. Animation ‘Cancelling’ is a misnomer. There was a time when abilities could be rendered invisible. But that was patched and weaving implemented such that skills are always visible no matter how they are used. And in doing so, ZOS legitimized Animation ‘Cancelling’.

The more accurate term would be Animation ‘Blending’. Blending a skill seamlessly into another action. That’s what it is, not exactly ‘cancelling’ the animation.

This. Animations have a core time window of execution which can't be cancelled.

...and if we talk about animation cancelling you need to differentiate between animation cancelling with light/heavy attacks with blocks or with bar swap.

Bar swap cancel is powerful and here I may understand if someone does not like it in terms of PvP.
Block cancelling is the side effect of being able to cancel an animation anytime with a block. I guess being able to block an attack anytime makes PvP worthwhile, fast paced and reactive otherwise you will see loads of PvPers stuck in animations and being unable to react.
LA/HA animation cancelling is the bread and butter skill for getting high dps numbers in PvE and I love that system. Actually this technics applies the least remarkable cancelling effect and it effects LAs/HAs more as the actual skill animation with which you weave it.

Betsararie

You have to be good to do it. It's mainly about knowing when your attacks hit/activate and requires skill.

The people who are against it are simply unable to implement it themselves. Or else they would like it.

It's something that you have to be skilled enough to use, and then it will really help you.

Mureel

Blanco wrote: »

You have to be good to do it. It's mainly about knowing when your attacks hit/activate and requires skill.

The people who are against it are simply unable to implement it themselves. Or else they would like it.

It's something that you have to be skilled enough to use, and then it will really help you.

Everyscrub makes posts like these. So ambiguous.

You didn't really say anything useful at all.

What animation cancelling requires is relatively invariable ping so that when you practise your light (or heavy) attack cancelling, you can reliably have the same result from la+skill.

Yes you need some practise - but it reeally is not difficult.

What will get you is when your ping is up and down up and down all the time - and I speak from the perspective of la/siphon which are a pain anyway. LA/Force Pulse is easier - but sustain is harder.

The MAIN ISSUE most people have that I've seen is keeping dots down and not allowing them to expire. Count out your la/spammable till your dots expire and always count them until you are used to replacing your dots in a timely manner, then you will get used to it.

Really variable ping will still mess your weave up - but keeping ground AOE down is just as important or moreso than a perfect LA weave.

lynog85

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

kaiage wrote: »

or you make a macro timed to .0666 seconds and press one button, then go to hell.

well said, and it might sound like a joke but that is honestly what is happening in PvP.

I think his joke was lost on you

khele23eb17_ESO

exeeter702 wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

And this is why ESO combat looks like ***.

Well pick your poison. I for one am glad i dont have to be locked out of actions, forced to watch my character follow through with the 2h weighted animation after successfully completing and resolving an uppercut on a target.

Would you rather players be punished via being forced out of player input during recovery animations when successfully meeting the resolve criteria for abilities on targets?

Would you place the resolution point at the end of recovery animations for skills? and thus REALLY *** up combat visuals and responsiveness.

Would you reanimate the skills so their visual queues are hilariously fast forwarded in order to fit within the GCD? Alternatively, would you increase the GCD 2 fold instead resulting in terribly slow combat?

I wouldnt have designed them this way in the first place.

Danksta

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

when i see people killed me in under 1 second and i look at the death recap and it shows MANY hits from several skills that all landed in 1 hit in under 1 second, and i know for a fact i was not lagging, thats from hyper animation canceling that was done with a macro.

It would actually be hacking the game to bypass the GCD if it wasn't lag, but we both know it was.

Gilvoth

no, i was not lagg, it is from macro and hyper mouse macro animation canceling.
like you said. "we both know that allready".

Lord-Otto

Lexxypwns wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

when i see people killed me in under 1 second and i look at the death recap and it shows MANY hits from several skills that all landed in 1 hit in under 1 second, and i know for a fact i was not lagging, thats from hyper animation canceling that was done with a macro.

Ffs man.... i give up

Hyper animation canceling, not to be confused with super, mega, or ultra animation canceling

That's got nothing on Super Saiyan Blue animation cancelling!
>;3

exeeter702

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

And this is why ESO combat looks like ***.

Well pick your poison. I for one am glad i dont have to be locked out of actions, forced to watch my character follow through with the 2h weighted animation after successfully completing and resolving an uppercut on a target.

Would you rather players be punished via being forced out of player input during recovery animations when successfully meeting the resolve criteria for abilities on targets?

Would you place the resolution point at the end of recovery animations for skills? and thus REALLY *** up combat visuals and responsiveness.

Would you reanimate the skills so their visual queues are hilariously fast forwarded in order to fit within the GCD? Alternatively, would you increase the GCD 2 fold instead resulting in terribly slow combat?

I wouldnt have designed them this way in the first place.

This comment demonatrates that you truly
dont understand what is really going on here.

exeeter702

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

no, i was not lagg, it is from macro and hyper mouse macro animation canceling.
like you said. "we both know that allready".

Macros alone are incapable of circumventing the GCD in this game. Please stop, you are making yourself look incredibly foolish.

khele23eb17_ESO

exeeter702 wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

And this is why ESO combat looks like ***.

Well pick your poison. I for one am glad i dont have to be locked out of actions, forced to watch my character follow through with the 2h weighted animation after successfully completing and resolving an uppercut on a target.

Would you rather players be punished via being forced out of player input during recovery animations when successfully meeting the resolve criteria for abilities on targets?

Would you place the resolution point at the end of recovery animations for skills? and thus REALLY *** up combat visuals and responsiveness.

Would you reanimate the skills so their visual queues are hilariously fast forwarded in order to fit within the GCD? Alternatively, would you increase the GCD 2 fold instead resulting in terribly slow combat?

I wouldnt have designed them this way in the first place.

This comment demonatrates that you truly
dont understand what is really going on here.

I dont care what convoluted strawman theory youre trying to get me to defend. My point is that a properly executed rotation in ESO looks like your character is having a seizure. In other words, it looks crap. It lessens my enjoyment of playing the game. Obviously, at this point in the game's life its highly unlikely ZOS will even consider doing something about it. So it is what it is.

exeeter702

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

And this is why ESO combat looks like ***.

Well pick your poison. I for one am glad i dont have to be locked out of actions, forced to watch my character follow through with the 2h weighted animation after successfully completing and resolving an uppercut on a target.

Would you rather players be punished via being forced out of player input during recovery animations when successfully meeting the resolve criteria for abilities on targets?

Would you place the resolution point at the end of recovery animations for skills? and thus REALLY *** up combat visuals and responsiveness.

Would you reanimate the skills so their visual queues are hilariously fast forwarded in order to fit within the GCD? Alternatively, would you increase the GCD 2 fold instead resulting in terribly slow combat?

I wouldnt have designed them this way in the first place.

This comment demonatrates that you truly
dont understand what is really going on here.

I dont care what convoluted strawman theory youre trying to get me to defend. My point is that a properly executed rotation in ESO looks like your character is having a seizure. In other words, it looks crap. It lessens my enjoyment of playing the game. Obviously, at this point in the game's life its highly unlikely ZOS will even consider doing something about it. So it is what it is.

Strawman? You dont have an actual angle in your argument is all. Plenty of people say things just like you in the form of "they shouldnt have made it that way to begin with". All you are really saying is you dont understand why it is technically like that to begin with.

I clearly laid out the variables or alternatives that they could have gone with, which would have resulted in an even worse feeling system then we have. Every single opponent of "animation canceling" (a frankly stupid term if im being honest) has never been able to offer a logically sound rebuttal to those points. It always ends up with them referencing eric wrobels comment in the matter from an old eso live or how video game x and y dont do it conveniently ignoring the fact that said games dont operate on traditional mmo combat standards with GCDs and ability resolutions in place.

Elfhunter194

exeeter702 wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

And this is why ESO combat looks like ***.

Well pick your poison. I for one am glad i dont have to be locked out of actions, forced to watch my character follow through with the 2h weighted animation after successfully completing and resolving an uppercut on a target.

Would you rather players be punished via being forced out of player input during recovery animations when successfully meeting the resolve criteria for abilities on targets?

Would you place the resolution point at the end of recovery animations for skills? and thus REALLY *** up combat visuals and responsiveness.

Would you reanimate the skills so their visual queues are hilariously fast forwarded in order to fit within the GCD? Alternatively, would you increase the GCD 2 fold instead resulting in terribly slow combat?

I wouldnt have designed them this way in the first place.

This comment demonatrates that you truly
dont understand what is really going on here.

I dont care what convoluted strawman theory youre trying to get me to defend. My point is that a properly executed rotation in ESO looks like your character is having a seizure. In other words, it looks crap. It lessens my enjoyment of playing the game. Obviously, at this point in the game's life its highly unlikely ZOS will even consider doing something about it. So it is what it is.

Strawman? You dont have an actual angle in your argument is all. Plenty of people say things just like you in the form of "they shouldnt have made it that way to begin with". All you are really saying is you dont understand why it is technically like that to begin with.

I clearly laid out the variables or alternatives that they could have gone with, which would have resulted in an even worse feeling system then we have. Every single opponent of "animation canceling" (a frankly stupid term if im being honest) has never been able to offer a logically sound rebuttal to those points. It always ends up with them referencing eric wrobels comment in the matter from an old eso live or how video game x and y dont do it conveniently ignoring the fact that said games dont operate on traditional mmo combat standards with GCDs and ability resolutions in place.

I think it's rather pointless having a heated debate about something that won't be changed. Chill out boys and girls, it's ONLY a game.

Malic

CyrusArya wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Again, why make the animation if it can be canceled?

Because you don’t actually cancel the animation. There aren’t invisible attacks happening. Animation ‘Cancelling’ is a misnomer. There was a time when abilities could be rendered invisible. But that was patched and weaving implemented such that skills are always visible no matter how they are used. And in doing so, ZOS legitimized Animation ‘Cancelling’.

The more accurate term would be Animation ‘Blending’. Blending a skill seamlessly into another action. That’s what it is, not exactly ‘cancelling’ the animation.

Point Conceded.

Thanks for the reply.

lynog85

exeeter702 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

when i see people killed me in under 1 second and i look at the death recap and it shows MANY hits from several skills that all landed in 1 hit in under 1 second, and i know for a fact i was not lagging, thats from hyper animation canceling that was done with a macro.

Ffs man.... i give up

Looooooooool. Hyper though. Maybe they were just scientologists?

Minno

mikemacon wrote: »

When a bug becomes a feature touted by a developer.

This.

I love ESO - but I was immensely disappointed when I discovered that animation cancelling had been embraced by ZOS devs and that as a result the high-tier endgame content just about requires it to get adequate DPS on bosses.

Ability animations in other games are there for a reason - to help with game balance.

I'll give you an example: In Destiny, there is an exotic sniper known as the No Land Beyond. Because snipers are OHK weapons, Destiny placed them in the "special weapon" slot and restricted the ammo available during PVP. No Land Beyond was an "exotic" (a semi-rare technically overpowered gold-tier weapon) which was equipped in the Primary slot (so it used Primary ammo which was plentiful). Because of that, the devs designed the gun as a bolt-action: It had one round in the camber and the reload animation was comparatively long.

High-end players discovered that they could "reload cancel" the animation by sprinting right after clicking the reload button, which removed the pain point of the long reload time and made the gun unbalanced.

Bungie issued a patch so that while you could still cancel the animation, the actual reload time remain unchanged. Hence, balance was restored.

ZOS's decision to embrace the exploit and incorporate it into the game means that people who suck at animation cancelling (like myself and my potato internet) are effectively excluded from high-end endgame.

It is what it is. Now that it's a part of the game, it's not going away.

But I was and remain very disappointed with that decision.

Good insight. To piggyback, if you look at channels/cast times, it's almost terrible how overnight those abilities lost importance in the combat system. And AC clashes with the design intent of having the animation system govern your character reaction in the environment. That's why players moved to tank builds in pvp; less DMG from multiple attacks.

Not saying AC is wrong or right. Just that it's hard to see it within the context of how they envisioned the game originally.

Waffennacht

Omg ROFL. Hyper Mega Super Alpha Omega Duper Fantastic Mystic Legendary Saiyan 4 Animation Cancelled

exeeter702

Super animation cancel turbo: arcade edition

exeeter702

Minno wrote: »

mikemacon wrote: »

When a bug becomes a feature touted by a developer.

This.

I love ESO - but I was immensely disappointed when I discovered that animation cancelling had been embraced by ZOS devs and that as a result the high-tier endgame content just about requires it to get adequate DPS on bosses.

Ability animations in other games are there for a reason - to help with game balance.

I'll give you an example: In Destiny, there is an exotic sniper known as the No Land Beyond. Because snipers are OHK weapons, Destiny placed them in the "special weapon" slot and restricted the ammo available during PVP. No Land Beyond was an "exotic" (a semi-rare technically overpowered gold-tier weapon) which was equipped in the Primary slot (so it used Primary ammo which was plentiful). Because of that, the devs designed the gun as a bolt-action: It had one round in the camber and the reload animation was comparatively long.

High-end players discovered that they could "reload cancel" the animation by sprinting right after clicking the reload button, which removed the pain point of the long reload time and made the gun unbalanced.

Bungie issued a patch so that while you could still cancel the animation, the actual reload time remain unchanged. Hence, balance was restored.

ZOS's decision to embrace the exploit and incorporate it into the game means that people who suck at animation cancelling (like myself and my potato internet) are effectively excluded from high-end endgame.

It is what it is. Now that it's a part of the game, it's not going away.

But I was and remain very disappointed with that decision.

Good insight. To piggyback, if you look at channels/cast times, it's almost terrible how overnight those abilities lost importance in the combat system. And AC clashes with the design intent of having the animation system govern your character reaction in the environment. That's why players moved to tank builds in pvp; less DMG from multiple attacks.

Not saying AC is wrong or right. Just that it's hard to see it within the context of how they envisioned the game originally.

Most cast time abilites fit within the GCD and all abilities, cast time or instant will immediately trigger the GCD upon button press. What this means is cast time abilites will resolve right at the GCD refresh, this is why when you see uppercut used back to back, you never see the recovery animation (character sways back due to wepons weight) because that animation is visual flare being shown after the ability successfully completes its cast time. If you were locked into that recovery animation, you would be unfairly punished if for example you successfully aim, complete the cast and connect an uppercut on an opponent and you see a snipe flying your way and are forced to eat it because you cant block until your character finishes recovering from the animation.

So how do you address that?

Do you make the skill look ridiculous by having it not have any type of follow through visual?

Do you make it look equally ridiculous AND visually unintuitive by speeding up the existing animation of uppercut (cast time PLUS follow through animation) and squeeze it all within thr GCD resulting in the resolution point where damage is calculated being placed at the very end of the animation?

The intended battle design is very clear, people just dont understand what is actually happening and the concessions the devs took when creating a battle system for an MMO that obeys traditional mmo rules while emphasising active combat.

idk

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

when i see people killed me in under 1 second and i look at the death recap and it shows MANY hits from several skills that all landed in 1 hit in under 1 second, and i know for a fact i was not lagging, thats from hyper animation canceling that was done with a macro.

Getting hit by several skills in one second is often lag. Might way it was not. There is no hyper animation canceling either. It is limited by the GCD tied to every single skill except ones with activation times, they have longer required times before the animation can be canceled and the skill still fire.

The required time cannot be bypassed. Animation canceling in it's most basic form has been encouraged by changed made at least twice during the past year. Zos realizes it is what sets ESO apart from games like WoW and SWTOR and seems to be part of some new games being developed.

TheMystid

Yes Zos should definetly remove animation cancelling and put a cooldown of at least 3 second for each and every ability. And why not a 5 sec CD for bar swapping too?

I 'd finally be able to kill Fasold this way.

idk

TheMystid wrote: »

Yes Zos should definetly remove animation cancelling and put a cooldown of at least 3 second for each and every ability. And why not a 5 sec CD for bar swapping too?

I 'd finally be able to kill Fasold this way.

lol