DPS or non-tank sorc should not use an ice staff to taunt the boss? Doesn't make any sense..

GreenhaloX

I still don't understand why any (dps) non-tank sorc would want to use an ice staff. The heavy attack taunts the boss. Oh, they know it. You see it often at world boss pits, particularly the Arena in the Gold Coast. Those dps sorc (I don't know what the hell they are thinking) taunting the boss with the heavy ice staff attack, then always back-paddling as the boss chases them all around the arena and continuously whacking them. Oh, they try to block and use the Empowered or Hardened Shield, but it will only block so much, as the boss is pulling 9-20k damages. The sorc would either end up dead on the ground or running around like a chicken with its head cut off. They can't keep the boss in place and other sorcs or dps are popping ground aoe, but wasting those because the boss is not being grounded, as a real/normal tank would keep. Yet, some just keep doing that heavy ice staff attack, even when a real tank (sword and board) are in.

Ok, I'll give it a bit of a credit when there is no tank at the pit. So, a sorc procs the boss and get chased around the arena or pit; at least, the boss is focused on one stupid fool. Ehh, sorry, I meant one toon/player. However, when you have a tank doing the tanking (taunting the boss and keep the boss at bay,) then you have a sorc pulling the boss away with the heavy ice staff attack. This is so weird that the heavy ice staff attack actually breaks the tank's taunt. I'm pulling the boss, the fire on him and keeping the boss at bay, then a sorc dude pops that ice staff thing and pulls the boss away. This is each and every time. Why the heck is that? I have to wait until that fool sorc either dies or lose its taunt to be able to re-taunt and pull the boss back grounded.

Anyways, that taunt from the ice staff needs to go or relook at. Sorc with an ice staff.. you're not a tank! Use fire and lightning staff as a normal sorc dps does.

EDIT/Update: Ok.. I have updated my main post here to refer to specifically a dps (non-tank) sorc. I can see by a lot of peeps' replies and comments that actually using an ice staff with a "sorc tank" can be useful. I, myself, can't see using a sorc as tank, but hey, to each their own. If it works.. cool. I like my sorc as a dps with inferno and lightning staff, and I like my tank with a sword and board and with DK's class and abilities. However, if a sorc tank is working, it's all good.. but a "dps sorc" have to quit using the ice staff and taunting the boss, messing around and getting chased everywhere and everyone else chasing after you and the boss. Ha ha

MaleAmazon

They dont know it taunts.

VaranisArano

The taunt effect comes from the Ancient Knowledge passive on the Destruction staff, and its pretty easy to select that passive without realizing that it turns your ice staff heavy attack into a taunt.

I main a tank and the ice staff is the main offender when someone taunts the boss off of me in group dungeons. If I see it happen, I'll mention it in chat like "Hey, did you know that ice staff heavy attack is a taunt?" and usually they didn't know or they accidentally heavy attacked on that bar.

So if you see that they are taunting and struggling with tanking the boss, you might give them a helpful yell in chat. Otherwise, just go with the mantra of a tank who's just lost taunt to a DPS. "You taunt it, you tank it." and chuckle at the chaos.

Gargath

Mag sorc in heavy armor and Frost Staff is a good tank, I was already informed that maybe not for trials, but overland bosses, dungeons it's more than enough. With a pet it can self heal a lot, and have a lot of shielding, can also shield others by synergy, so why do you complain. It's also much better to taunt the ads with the frost Staff because it costs no resources, it's working more like an aoe taunt everyone was so yelling about.

You probably spotted bad tanks. Good sorc one will have ~50-60k health and a pet who can heal them 20k instant heal, he also has a resourceless 10k damage shields applied to them every few seconds just from heavy attack of infused frost staff. These don't run around the arena but stay in place doing heavy attacks. It's a also a lot of fun tanking with a Staff.

GreenhaloX

Sure.. I'll buy it for a dollar that some are newer players and probably not aware of that taunting effect. However, when you have veteran players with high CP doing it, I can't buy it. I have kindly posted on the text chat (I have never ripped or chew any arse out on it) a lot of times that the ice staff is taunting the boss and breaking a tank's taunt, but they keep on doing it. I have had replies on text chat that they like ice staff taunting or their shield is enough to use for blocking the boss. Wow.. This is not just once or twice, but a lot of times. It happens at dolmens and dungeons as well. Like I said, that effect for the ice staff just needs to go..

Minno

VaranisArano wrote: »

The taunt effect comes from the Ancient Knowledge passive on the Destruction staff, and its pretty easy to select that passive without realizing that it turns your ice staff heavy attack into a taunt.

I main a tank and the ice staff is the main offender when someone taunts the boss off of me in group dungeons. If I see it happen, I'll mention it in chat like "Hey, did you know that ice staff heavy attack is a taunt?" and usually they didn't know or they accidentally heavy attacked on that bar.

So if you see that they are taunting and struggling with tanking the boss, you might give them a helpful yell in chat. Otherwise, just go with the mantra of a tank who's just lost taunt to a DPS. "You taunt it, you tank it." and chuckle at the chaos.

I used an ice staff on my backbar in PvP and keep it for pve. Usual I only light attack weave as I apply my debuffs/dots, but I noticed I grabbed agro a few times without heavy attack. Maybe that was the boss mechanic, but figured I'd mention it.

Gargath

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Like I said, that effect for the ice staff just needs to go..

The effect for the ice staff is there for use by the tanks. But it can be used by anyone. Just because some players want to use it for fun or to check how it is to play a tank while being a dps, or just because they know you don't like it and will do it purposely to break your immersion... It's an mmo, eveyone play as they like. It's not a 4ppl group dungeon where everyone play their role but overland arena or dolmens with plenty of players, so what's the problem. Let them taunt the boss and break your taunt, let them die there, it's their choice.
To be honest I also found it amusing to taunt enemies by my frost staff at the dolmens . People are trying to make their attacks and suddenly they realise there is no enemies around . Well..., when someone is doing this on me, I'm mad .

Taleof2Cities

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Anyways, that taunt from the ice staff needs to go or relook at. Sorc with an ice staff.. you're not a tank! Use fire and lightning staff as a normal sorc dps does.

I don’t think it needs to go, @GreenhaloX ... it’s just an awareness issue to not put any skill points in the Ancient Knowledge passive if you’re not tanking or don’t need the taunt.

MaleAmazon

However, when you have veteran players with high CP doing it, I can't buy it.

Possibly, but there are explanations; they could not have played frost staff in a while or weren´t around / paying attention when the frost tank patch came - tbh it´s not obviously advertised in the game. They could have paid for a Skyreach carry. I am quite surprised at how high CP players can be ignorant of basic mechanics in the game, but then I sometimes am too. I wasn´t aware of how much you could attack with skills through block until CP 500+

Jade1986

Thats because ice staves are for tanking.....

SilverIce58

MaleAmazon wrote: »

However, when you have veteran players with high CP doing it, I can't buy it.

Possibly, but there are explanations; they could not have played frost staff in a while or weren´t around / paying attention when the frost tank patch came - tbh it´s not obviously advertised in the game. They could have paid for a Skyreach carry. I am quite surprised at how high CP players can be ignorant of basic mechanics in the game, but then I sometimes am too. I wasn´t aware of how much you could attack with skills through block until CP 500+

There's actually quite a large amount of high cp players who don't know several mechanics. One time during a WB in Vvardenfell, a dps at cp 400-something didn't know how to interrupt the boss while it was feeding off of me. So yeah, OP don't assume bc of their high CP, they know everything (or anything for that matter)

Jade1986

SilverIce58 wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

However, when you have veteran players with high CP doing it, I can't buy it.

Possibly, but there are explanations; they could not have played frost staff in a while or weren´t around / paying attention when the frost tank patch came - tbh it´s not obviously advertised in the game. They could have paid for a Skyreach carry. I am quite surprised at how high CP players can be ignorant of basic mechanics in the game, but then I sometimes am too. I wasn´t aware of how much you could attack with skills through block until CP 500+

There's actually quite a large amount of high cp players who don't know several mechanics. One time during a WB in Vvardenfell, a dps at cp 400-something didn't know how to interrupt the boss while it was feeding off of me. So yeah, OP don't assume bc of their high CP, they know everything (or anything for that matter)

We need a "please read the tooltips" tooltip. xD

SilverIce58

Jade1986 wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

However, when you have veteran players with high CP doing it, I can't buy it.

Possibly, but there are explanations; they could not have played frost staff in a while or weren´t around / paying attention when the frost tank patch came - tbh it´s not obviously advertised in the game. They could have paid for a Skyreach carry. I am quite surprised at how high CP players can be ignorant of basic mechanics in the game, but then I sometimes am too. I wasn´t aware of how much you could attack with skills through block until CP 500+

There's actually quite a large amount of high cp players who don't know several mechanics. One time during a WB in Vvardenfell, a dps at cp 400-something didn't know how to interrupt the boss while it was feeding off of me. So yeah, OP don't assume bc of their high CP, they know everything (or anything for that matter)

We need a "please read the tooltips" tooltip. xD

Lolol we need more tips on how to do these things during the loading screens. I mean, since people have been having such long ones, might as well give them something to read.

GreenhaloX

Ok, just a bit of revision with my thoughts and viewpoint on this.

I have updated my main post here to specifically refer to a dps (non-tank) sorc. I can see by a lot of peeps' replies and comments that actually using an ice staff with a "sorc tank" can be useful. I, myself, can't see using a sorc as tank, but hey, to each their own. If it works.. cool. I like my sorc as a dps with inferno and lightning staff, and I like my tank with a sword and board and with DK's class and abilities. However, if a sorc tank is working, it's all good.. but a "dps sorc" have to quit using the ice staff and taunting the boss, messing around and getting chased everywhere and everyone else chasing after you and the boss.

Also, thanks all, for keeping your replies and comments quite constructive.. appreciate it.

Jade1986

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Ok, just a bit of revision with my thoughts and viewpoint on this.

I have updated my main post here to specifically refer to a dps (non-tank) sorc. I can see by a lot of peeps' replies and comments that actually using an ice staff with a "sorc tank" can be useful. I, myself, can't see using a sorc as tank, but hey, to each their own. If it works.. cool. I like my sorc as a dps with inferno and lightning staff, and I like my tank with a sword and board and with DK's class and abilities. However, if a sorc tank is working, it's all good.. but a "dps sorc" have to quit using the ice staff and taunting the boss, messing around and getting chased everywhere and everyone else chasing after you and the boss.

Also, thanks all, for keeping your replies and comments quite constructive.. appreciate it.

There are also warden ice tanks. They are pretty much what ZoS had in mind when they made the ice staff a tanking option. Its my only tank, and I would never look back, I tried SnB, but to me that is way way too boring.

MaleAmazon

We need a "please read the tooltips" tooltip. xD

We also need a "please learn how to write stringent game rules and coherent tooltips" loading screen at ZoS HQ.

"reflects projectiles" (wtf counts as a projectile in-game?!)

"damage over time" (channels are damage over time, despite the fact that they, I think, dont always have damage numbers in DoT colours in-game, and 'X damage every Y seconds for Z seconds' isn´t a DoT, which isn´t exactly clear)

"healing done, healing received" (multiplicative? additive?)

"affects allies" (sometimes you count as an ally, sometimes not)

ARGH!

VaranisArano

Minno wrote: »

I used an ice staff on my backbar in PvP and keep it for pve. Usual I only light attack weave as I apply my debuffs/dots, but I noticed I grabbed agro a few times without heavy attack. Maybe that was the boss mechanic, but figured I'd mention it.

The Ice staff only taunts on heavy attack. So if you were grabbing aggro a couple times, there's a couple of possibilities.

• Accidental heavy attack - it happens, but I'll take your word for it that it didn't.
• Boss mechanic - bosses have a bunch of attacks where they turn from the tank, fire something off at a party member, and turn back to the tank. There's nothing the tank can do about this.
• The tank lost taunt - this definitely happens too, and if you were holding aggro for a period of time, this is the most likely explanation. (There's are a few bosses that can't be taunted, but not many.)
• The tank wasn't taunting - high DPS can attract a boss if the tank isn't taunting properly or taunting at all. When the boss is up in my healer's face the majority of the fight or chasing the DPS, its safe to say that my tank is a DPS queued as a fake take.

agingerinohio

As someone who has recently hung up my tanking on the shelves, I can not tell you how many times I have had to explain to people why they shouldn't be using an ice staff in a dps or healing role. 9/10 times they had no idea it would draw aggro on them and take it from the tank. In the past month alone it was literally every tanking experience I had. In which one ice staff wielding healer proceeded to harass me for losing aggro and continued to whisper me harassment after I quit the dungeon because of his foul demeanor. I just don't get it. Do people just not read the passives? Its not hard to understand.

Ice staves for DPS and healers are bad, mkay? Sure you can use them in PvP but that's about it.

Eyesinthedrk

I keep a trash ice staff in my inventory for when some dps cheats the queue as a tank.

Like you said, when they get Agro and panic run, half my dps is just a useless magica sink anyway. Might as we’ll hold the boss still so the others can beat on it.

crobarXIII

I still wonder why ZOS decided to give an ice staff as a reward for one of the early main story quest in morrowind. It became really annoying seeing all these new players taunting world bosses while doing world boss daily quests.

helediron

Ice staff is great for leveling as DPS. It prevents chicken runs on world bosses. The chickens resetting the fights is far more bigger problem.

VaranisArano

agingerinohio wrote: »

As someone who has recently hung up my tanking on the shelves, I can not tell you how many times I have had to explain to people why they shouldn't be using an ice staff in a dps or healing role. 9/10 times they had no idea it would draw aggro on them and take it from the tank. In the past month alone it was literally every tanking experience I had. In which one ice staff wielding healer proceeded to harass me for losing aggro and continued to whisper me harassment after I quit the dungeon because of his foul demeanor. I just don't get it. Do people just not read the passives? Its not hard to understand.

Ice staves for DPS and healers are bad, mkay? Sure you can use them in PvP but that's about it.

That's unfortunate. In my book, they get one explanation of why the boss is aggroed on them. After that, if they taunt it, they get to tank it.

It's one thing when the tank isn't taunting and the boss is up in my healer's face for most of the fight or chasing the DPS. Its entirely another thing if the healer or DPS is taunting the boss off the tank.

Samadhi

Only thing that bothers me is that the ice staff taunt overwrites the sword and board taunt
so if a dps in my dungeon starts pulling aggro, cannot even get it back to focused on me until their heavy attack taunt expires
and just hope they do not do it again

Would have preferred if Destructive Clench had taunt added to Ice as a secondary effect rather than a longer immobilize
make one morph for tanking and the other for dps

idk

Samadhi wrote: »

Only thing that bothers me is that the ice staff taunt overwrites the sword and board taunt
so if a dps in my dungeon starts pulling aggro, cannot even get it back to focused on me until their heavy attack taunt expires
and just hope they do not do it again

Would have preferred if Destructive Clench had taunt added to Ice as a secondary effect rather than a longer immobilize
make one morph for tanking and the other for dps

A taunt is a taunt. They are all equal. Also, regardless of a pure staff tank being a weaker build or ideas of how we feel the taunt itself cold be better, it still needs to have an equal taunt since there are fights that require two tanks to swap targets.

Samadhi

idk wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Only thing that bothers me is that the ice staff taunt overwrites the sword and board taunt
so if a dps in my dungeon starts pulling aggro, cannot even get it back to focused on me until their heavy attack taunt expires
and just hope they do not do it again

Would have preferred if Destructive Clench had taunt added to Ice as a secondary effect rather than a longer immobilize
make one morph for tanking and the other for dps

A taunt is a taunt. They are all equal. Also, regardless of a pure staff tank being a weaker build or ideas of how we feel the taunt itself cold be better, it still needs to have an equal taunt since there are fights that require two tanks to swap targets.

If resource management is going to be nerfed to the point that DPS are required to heavy attack,
it would be nice if they could do so without breaking aggro for the tank(s)

my complaint is not that Ice Staff has a taunt, personally use it on Warden mag tank
would just have liked to see it elsewhere in the skill line
Also the Inner Rage in Undaunted morph would be nice to see a cost reduction for continuing the skill as a Magicka morph

GreenhaloX

Jade1986 wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Ok, just a bit of revision with my thoughts and viewpoint on this.

I have updated my main post here to specifically refer to a dps (non-tank) sorc. I can see by a lot of peeps' replies and comments that actually using an ice staff with a "sorc tank" can be useful. I, myself, can't see using a sorc as tank, but hey, to each their own. If it works.. cool. I like my sorc as a dps with inferno and lightning staff, and I like my tank with a sword and board and with DK's class and abilities. However, if a sorc tank is working, it's all good.. but a "dps sorc" have to quit using the ice staff and taunting the boss, messing around and getting chased everywhere and everyone else chasing after you and the boss.

Also, thanks all, for keeping your replies and comments quite constructive.. appreciate it.

There are also warden ice tanks. They are pretty much what ZoS had in mind when they made the ice staff a tanking option. Its my only tank, and I would never look back, I tried SnB, but to me that is way way too boring.

I had a Warden tank. It was good.. love leveling up with it, but after getting it back to max CP and some times after, I had to revert it to a sorc dps Warden. Especially when hitting those world bosses in Vv, there aren't that many peeps around, and me, at least, end up soloing the pit or may have one of two others here and there, but not too often. That healing thicket is what saved my arse so many times. However, for me, at least, I found the Warden skillsets are not as good as a DK, and especially a MagDK tank skillsets. I solo much better with a DK tank than others, but again, to each their works; whatever works for you.

With Morrowind patch and so many things changed and nerfed to stam toons, and if you like to solo, such as I, you can't really solo a lot of world boss pits with any toons like you could pre-Morrowind. Heck, with pre-Morrowind, my StamDK was the shitt; had awesome dps, resistance and the Igneous Shield was mitigating much more incoming damages. I was even soloing vet dungeons. Unfortunately, with Hardy and Elemental dwindled and Warlord cost-reducing passive gone, it is very difficult to solo a lot of the boss pits or vet dungeons with post-Morrowind. Igneous shield is literally crap if your tank is under 50k hp. Literally, you had to re-adapt your toons and configuration. Practically a dps sorc is the class still to have for post-Morrowind. Yes, I have a few mag and stam sorcs, but I also drudged up a couple hybrid tanks, and for me, became the go-to toons for soling those pits and dungeons again.

I have 3 tanks (had 4, but reverted that Warden tank.) 2 are hybrids; a 2H/S&B Imperial with more stamina and a lightning staff/S&B MagDK Dark Elf. I only use these for messing around with world boss pits and dungeon dailies. The other tank is a pure both bars S&B Nord MagDK tank which is for trials. With the hybrids, you can dps just fine as well as tanking. I'll tell you, you need to be able to dps and not just tank, since you run into so many peeps/dps toons that are seemingly having trouble with dpsing. At least, with the hybrid tank, you can dps when such dps toons in your group are lacking; particularly during dungeon runs, and even at dolems and other world boss pits.

I don't run around PvE land with my pure Nord DK tank. He has too poor of a dps. He won't die, but damn, really no dps coming out of him. At least, with the hybrids, I can dps just fine as well as tanking. Particularly with dungeon dailies, I'm like the 2 and the half or third dps in the group. We get through it a lot quicker. However, it doesn't go as quick when a dps sorc has the ice staff slotted and keeps on aggroing boss and adds with the heavy attack. Ha ha.. damn.

SirMewser

The cutest thing happened to me the other day.

On my sorc tank (I don't use frost staff)...
I was all sad and lonely against a world boss in Hew's bane, trying to get Baharah's curse shield.
Boss health was at 15%, then suddenly running down the stairs is a DK with a sword and shield activating his spiked armour, rushing in to help me, awww!

Then all the sudden, he decides that it was necessary for him to taunt the boss off of me, when I was clearly doing fine, so I am like "um... okay!" but then...
He gets 1 shotted!!~

Little DK guy, if you are reading this, please know you put the biggest smile on my face the day you did that, thank you so much!
You know who you are!

As for the topic, I think it's adorable no less than an annoyance when people inadvertently taunt with frost staff. It's entertainment to me.

GreenhaloX

Jade1986 wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

However, when you have veteran players with high CP doing it, I can't buy it.

Possibly, but there are explanations; they could not have played frost staff in a while or weren´t around / paying attention when the frost tank patch came - tbh it´s not obviously advertised in the game. They could have paid for a Skyreach carry. I am quite surprised at how high CP players can be ignorant of basic mechanics in the game, but then I sometimes am too. I wasn´t aware of how much you could attack with skills through block until CP 500+

There's actually quite a large amount of high cp players who don't know several mechanics. One time during a WB in Vvardenfell, a dps at cp 400-something didn't know how to interrupt the boss while it was feeding off of me. So yeah, OP don't assume bc of their high CP, they know everything (or anything for that matter)

We need a "please read the tooltips" tooltip. xD

Well.. I'll tell you what. Been at this game for a very long time now, and all my 14 toons are well over maxed CP. I haven't done vMA or trials in well over a year now. I'm certain I would need a refresher or a few runs again to remember all the mechanics. Heck, even when each new DLC comes out, you're not going to know the mechanics or the world boss pits, dungeons or trials. Particularly, at the world boss pits when you have 20 to 30 players/toons all camped out and only take 15-20 seconds to kill the boss and complete the pits. Likewise with CWC, I don't know the mechanics of the two boss pits, because, like always, there loads camped out there, and we just dps the hell out of it for 15 or 20 seconds. You're not going to know what skillsets or mechanics the boss actually have until things settle down, and you may have to solo it or just be in there with a couple others and have to actually fight the boss for a minute or two. Just like Wuyuvus in Vv, I kept getting killed with my tank by that boss over and over again. I didn't realized or learn later that a second player need to interrupt the boss when he is feeding on you. Ha ha.. what the F, man..

I haven't ran any of the trials in Vv, Horn of the Reach or CWC yet. My own accords. I have done all those trials and in vet mode with pre-morrowind, and I just don't like to do those trials. Again, I haven't done a trial for over a year now, and I have been hesitant to do any of these post-Morrowind ones. Therefore, if I do decide to venture back in these trials, I wouldn't know the trials' mechanics, and I'm well over maxed CP. However, there is really no excuse in not knowing the effects, skills and passives that come with a skill you slot and chosen with a build and weapon. Especially, if you're higher CP or veteran players, you should know these things. You should know the ice staff you are slotting taunts the boss when heavy attacking, or you should know you shouldn't try to tank the boss if you're a dps and not a tank. It doesn't go well.

Zimbugga

They can't read, I guess. They don't need Tri Focus -passive.

Taleof2Cities

I'm another player that uses a Warden Ice Tank, @GreenhaloX.

Simply by class definition Wardens don't output a lot of DPS for PvE.

However, they can be effective as tanks, healers, or in PvP.

I agree with you that players should be aware of the Ancient Knowledge passive and how it works.

But, that shouldn't limit the versatility that the Warden has.

ValkynSketha

It is true that frost dpsing is nowhere near viable in eso lets say impossible due to taunt, however i understand the players who do so, it is a lot fun, way more fun than fire and shock, see wow and skyrim, frost mage is alot of fun in both and in the top group of dpsing.