Zos, a case for reviewing vampire skill line

Kanar

Hello ZOS,
A large section of the player base feels that they are forced to take the vampire skill line because it gives their character much more power than without. These players really do not want to be vampires but they feel forced into taking the skill line and this is not right. Of all skill lines, vampire and werewolf should be mostly for "flavor." No one should feel forced to take these skills to be viable in PvE or PvP.

Here are some examples of players feelings about the vampire skill line:

we have to wear vampire for the insane bonuses you get from it. It's not even a choice.

ZOS attached insanely powerful endgame buffs to being a vampire.

Everyone and their mother is a vampire because of the benefits it provides.

you MUST have [vampire] if you wanna do vet hm trials as DD,

Given how players feel forced to take this skill line, I think the game designers should really take a look at the skills and make some changes so that players are not forced into the skill line and instead take the skills because they want to be vampires. Here are some suggestions:
Mist form: change the damage reduction to the Major Protection buff, change elusive mist benefit to minor expedition instead of major. Fix it so that becoming mist form purges all beneficial effects (like shields)

Supernatural recovery: reduce the level 2 bonus to 5% from 10%.

Undeath: change so the maximum damage reduction is 8% (on par with minor protection)

These simple changes would go a long way to giving players the freedom to choose vampire or not, instead of being forced into taking a skill line they do not want.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Thanks for reading

AsheronRealaidain

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Kanar

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Hi thanks for responding. I created this thread because this skill line is not working fine, in fact many people are unhappy with it and often bring it up on the forums. Here is a recent example:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/379683/look-at-how-many-people-hate-the-appearance-of-vampirism/p1
Warm regards

Gandrhulf_Harbard

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

getemshauna

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

Oh, again the "all the best" dude, how I was missing you (obviously not)

Somewhere in the forums one of ZOS members said that "vampire look toggle on/off" request was noted, so maybe we should be just a little bit more patient, everyone knows ZOS doesn't like to hurry with their promises.

VvardeFellow

"A large section of the player base feels ...." Assertion to be substantiated.

"we have to..." no supporting material.

"ZOS attached insanely..." More of a hyperbolic opinion than fact.

"Everyone and their mother...." Seriously? is that supposed to be taken with any modicum of credibility?

"you MUST..." Speaks for itself, and opinion full of itself but hollow.

Tan9oSuccka

There isn’t any drawbacks other than cosmetic.

They should go back to taking 50% more fire damage or whatever it was before. They used to get vaporized in Vet Blessed Crucible.

Silver bolts actually was useful with knockback.

Drummerx04

Honestly, vampire is mostly unnecessary in end game content.

10% sounds like a lot of regen, but most PvE dps builds use very little regen to begin with (~ 700), and will basically never notice the extra 70 recovery. Many vet trial runners - if they are vamps - don't go past stage 2. They get their tiny regen boost, but don't want to take unnecessary fire damage.

undeath is mostly underwhelming as well, it kicks in at such low health and doesn't give the full reduction until you are essentially dead already. A couple tank builds and maybe damage shield builds can get some milage out of it, but it's rarely enough to save you.

Invigorating drain can be good for ult gen builds, but frankly it has a pretty substantial risk factor. Namely, anyone who stuns me with the channel without instantly cancelling (and therefore not getting the ult) will get bashed and stunned by me in turn.

Bat's is mostly a tanking skill for PvP. If you really want PBAOE ult, destro will almost always serve you better.

For me, there are two major selling points for vamp:

1. Sneak speed - If you do a lot of sneaking, this is obviously nice.
2. Mist form - It certainly has its cons, but when you factor in damage reduction, CC immunity, and - given the sheer number of snares/roots in this ****ing PvP game - snare immunity, mist form is the only skill I would even consider calling "mandatory" and that's only in pvp for non templar mag builds. There are also a couple trial bosses where mist form is actually amazing.

So in essence, anyone who says the vampire PASSIVES are mandatory are just straight lying.

altemriel

Kanar wrote: »

Hello ZOS,
A large section of the player base feels that they are forced to take the vampire skill line because it gives their character much more power than without. These players really do not want to be vampires but they feel forced into taking the skill line and this is not right. Of all skill lines, vampire and werewolf should be mostly for "flavor." No one should feel forced to take these skills to be viable in PvE or PvP.

Here are some examples of players feelings about the vampire skill line:

we have to wear vampire for the insane bonuses you get from it. It's not even a choice.

ZOS attached insanely powerful endgame buffs to being a vampire.

Everyone and their mother is a vampire because of the benefits it provides.

you MUST have [vampire] if you wanna do vet hm trials as DD,

Given how players feel forced to take this skill line, I think the game designers should really take a look at the skills and make some changes so that players are not forced into the skill line and instead take the skills because they want to be vampires. Here are some suggestions:
Mist form: change the damage reduction to the Major Protection buff, change elusive mist benefit to minor expedition instead of major. Fix it so that becoming mist form purges all beneficial effects (like shields)

Supernatural recovery: reduce the level 2 bonus to 5% from 10%.

Undeath: change so the maximum damage reduction is 8% (on par with minor protection)

These simple changes would go a long way to giving players the freedom to choose vampire or not, instead of being forced into taking a skill line they do not want.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Thanks for reading

no more nerfs pls!!!

Kanar

altemriel wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Hello ZOS,
A large section of the player base feels that they are forced to take the vampire skill line because it gives their character much more power than without. These players really do not want to be vampires but they feel forced into taking the skill line and this is not right. Of all skill lines, vampire and werewolf should be mostly for "flavor." No one should feel forced to take these skills to be viable in PvE or PvP.

Here are some examples of players feelings about the vampire skill line:

we have to wear vampire for the insane bonuses you get from it. It's not even a choice.

ZOS attached insanely powerful endgame buffs to being a vampire.

Everyone and their mother is a vampire because of the benefits it provides.

you MUST have [vampire] if you wanna do vet hm trials as DD,

Given how players feel forced to take this skill line, I think the game designers should really take a look at the skills and make some changes so that players are not forced into the skill line and instead take the skills because they want to be vampires. Here are some suggestions:
Mist form: change the damage reduction to the Major Protection buff, change elusive mist benefit to minor expedition instead of major. Fix it so that becoming mist form purges all beneficial effects (like shields)

Supernatural recovery: reduce the level 2 bonus to 5% from 10%.

Undeath: change so the maximum damage reduction is 8% (on par with minor protection)

These simple changes would go a long way to giving players the freedom to choose vampire or not, instead of being forced into taking a skill line they do not want.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Thanks for reading

no more nerfs pls!!!

Hi, thanks for replying. This is not a nerf request, but a request to buff these players ability to play without being a vampire.

VaranisArano

No, this is a semi-serious troll post in response to everyone whining in the other thread about how vampire is totally necessary for end-game stuff and yet they hate looking like a vampire, so clearly they should be able to have the buffs and debuffs and yet opt out of the lore-based appearance change (No, you aren't a super-special Gary Stu like Verandis Ravenwatch who can disguise himself as the plot requires.)

ESO vampires are ugly? Have you seen Oblivion vampires?
Vincente Valtieri, vampire heartthrob of the Dark Brotherhood

Asmael

you MUST have [vampire] if you wanna do vet hm trials as DD,

Ah.

Damn, I didn't know that.

ZOS attached insanely powerful endgame buffs to being a vampire.

Such as getting +20% damage from DB in PvP and being destroyed by mDKs if you're a vamp past stage 1 (which has 0 benefits by itself).

Everyone and their mother is a vampire because of the benefits it provides.

Everyone and their mother who actually did the math realized they gained a very-little-tiny bit of sustain at the cost of either:

1. Increased risk of one shot in trials where you have fire (which happens to include the 2 latest trials)
2. Extra damage from fire (most common element in PvP) as well as Dawnbreaker (one of the most popular ultimate in there as well)

we have to wear vampire for the insane bonuses you get from it. It's not even a choice.

Undeath has to be the most overhyped passive ingame. Uneeded in PvE (risky even due to the increased damage), mostly irrelevant in PvP when being below 20% HP means getting popped by the next Mage's wrath.

---

The only thing where a point can be made is if you are looking for a mobility tool as a mDK or magplar in PvP, but you can ask Zos to adjust snares for that.

Kanar

I have an update on another complaint: vampires suffering from mDKs gaining a damage boost against them in PvP:

im not talk about the 25% extra dmg only. Im talking about the class [mDK] that is exploiting it

Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/379779/vampires-and-fire-damage-pvp#latest

ZOS, please consider the feedback that players do not want to be forced to use vampire. The decision to go vampire should be made from a place of wanting to be vampire, not by being forced to take vampire in order to be effective.
@ZOS_Wrobel
Thanks for reading!

starkerealm

VvardeFellow wrote: »

"Everyone and their mother...." Seriously? is that supposed to be taken with any modicum of credibility?

I for one, applaud my mother's commitment to this stray design element of ESO. I mean she's been dead for years, so it's always reassuring to see that the necromancers of this forum continue to have a steady supply of fresh materials.

In all seriousness, Vampirism is useful. I understand the people that say, "no, you must have this to participate." I don't fully agree, but, life goes on. That said, I do think the playerbase would benefit from having more options to control how their vampires looked in game. Not "necessary," but certainly wanted and welcome.

starkerealm

Asmael wrote: »

we have to wear vampire for the insane bonuses you get from it. It's not even a choice.

Undeath has to be the most overhyped passive ingame. Uneeded in PvE (risky even due to the increased damage), mostly irrelevant in PvP when being below 20% HP means getting popped by the next Mage's wrath.

Yeah, I've got to second this. Undeath is straight up garbage. Which, is where it should be from a balance perspective. You don't have to buy it, you don't waste a slot equipping it. It's just there if you want it. In the handful of times when it will save your life, it's nice to have, but the rest of the time you can ignore it.

Honestly, unless you're after Nightstalker, or actually using the abilities and want the discounts, you should probably stay in stage 2.

ParaNostram

I say it needs both a nerf and buff. Make the downsides more severe and the upsides more intense, maybe fill out the active skills with 3 more, just make being a vampire something you have to consider hard and build for, like being a werewolf. A change that can put vampires in the minority but still potentially powerful if built right would just tickle my [redacted].

AhPook_Is_Here

Maybe it would make more sense to make another world line called "light-seeker" or something equally cliche, then give them the same passive buffs and similar active abilities, as well as some very minor vulnerability that can be easily offset or reduced.

Then don't have a skin "overlay" for light-seeker or make it something like a little halo or wings or a mini-unicorn horn.

morrowjen

VvardeFellow wrote: »

"A large section of the player base feels ...." Assertion to be substantiated.

"we have to..." no supporting material.

"ZOS attached insanely..." More of a hyperbolic opinion than fact.

"Everyone and their mother...." Seriously? is that supposed to be taken with any modicum of credibility?

"you MUST..." Speaks for itself, and opinion full of itself but hollow.

Boom.

Samadhi

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

How does people whining about cosmetic appearance reflect on functionality issues?
Can respect that people who prefer to min/max may have objections about being obligated to appear a certain way to do so,
but there is no obligation for people to min/max to begin with, so it feels slightly redundant.

Runschei

No. Just no.

MLGProPlayer

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

You'll have to explain your line of thought, because I don't follow.

Something is "working fine" because a ton of people hate the way it works? What?

All the best.

MLGProPlayer

Samadhi wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

How does people whining about cosmetic appearance reflect on functionality issues?
Can respect that people who prefer to min/max may have objections about being obligated to appear a certain way to do so,
but there is no obligation for people to min/max to begin with, so it feels slightly redundant.

There is an obligation to min-max in every game with a competitive element. Whether its PvE leader boards or PVP, you are competing with other players to be the best.

The only way to be the beat in ESO is to be a vampire. That's bad game design.

Samadhi

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

You'll have to explain your line of though, because I don't follow.

Something is "working as intended" because a ton of people hate the way it works? What?

All the best

How does people liking or disliking the way something works reflect on its intended functionality?

Samadhi

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

How does people whining about cosmetic appearance reflect on functionality issues?
Can respect that people who prefer to min/max may have objections about being obligated to appear a certain way to do so,
but there is no obligation for people to min/max to begin with, so it feels slightly redundant.

There is an obligation to min-max in every game with a competitive element. Whether its PvE leader boards or PVP, you are competing with other players to be the best.

The obly way to be the beat in ESO is to be a vampire. That's bad game design.

Could you better elucidate these statements?
You say that every game with a competitive element requires players to adhere to specific mechanics in order to be the "best,"
then complain that the only way to be the best in ESO is to adhere to specific mechanics, which is bad game design

Is your complaint that ZOS is adhering to standard competitive design mechanics?

MLGProPlayer

Samadhi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

You'll have to explain your line of though, because I don't follow.

Something is "working as intended" because a ton of people hate the way it works? What?

All the best

How does people liking or disliking the way something works reflect on its intended functionality?

People dislike vampirism because:

1. It is a requirmement for min-maxing

2. It forces a specific appearance on you

People play MMOs because they can make their own characters. This is what separates MMOs from single player RPGs where you play as a specific protagonist. Taking away the ability to customise your character takes away much of the appeal of playing an MMO.

People aren't complaining for the sake of complaining. They are complaining because this implementation of vampirism doesn't work well in an MMO.

makreth

call me crazy but I went vamp on my stamina nightblade due to the sneak movement bonus (it's MASSIVE) and the recovery. I do hate it of course...it also turned me from completely black into a white kitten....

T4T2FR34K

Just because a few loud mouths bring something up on the forums, does not make it a problem...

p.s. considering you can pay real money for it now...I'm seeing a lot of refunds in the future...

Samadhi

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

You'll have to explain your line of though, because I don't follow.

Something is "working as intended" because a ton of people hate the way it works? What?

All the best

How does people liking or disliking the way something works reflect on its intended functionality?

People dislike vampirism because:

1. It is a requirmement for min-maxing

2. It forces a specific appearance on you.

People play MMOs because they can make their own chatacters. This is what separates MMOs from single player RPGs where you play as a specific protagonist. Taking away the ability to customose your character takes away much of the appeal of playing an MMO.

People aren't complaining for the sake of complaining. They are complaining because this implementation of vanpirism doesn't work well in an MMO.

Okay...
but this is totally in-line with unmodded single-player Elder Scrolls titles
where character appearance is customizable at creation, but vampirism alters that appearance

Is there something specific about MMOs that makes the appearance exceptional in terms of defining intended functionality?

MLGProPlayer

Samadhi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

You'll have to explain your line of though, because I don't follow.

Something is "working as intended" because a ton of people hate the way it works? What?

All the best

How does people liking or disliking the way something works reflect on its intended functionality?

People dislike vampirism because:

1. It is a requirmement for min-maxing

2. It forces a specific appearance on you.

People play MMOs because they can make their own chatacters. This is what separates MMOs from single player RPGs where you play as a specific protagonist. Taking away the ability to customose your character takes away much of the appeal of playing an MMO.

People aren't complaining for the sake of complaining. They are complaining because this implementation of vanpirism doesn't work well in an MMO.

Okay...
but this is totally in-line with unmodded single-player Elder Scrolls titles
where character appearance is customizable at creation, but vampirism alters that appearance

Is there something specific about MMOs that makes the appearance exceptional in terms of defining intended functionality?

Yes. MMOs are social games. People expect to be able to customise a character's appearance without affecting gameplay performance. It's why transmogrification is an industry standard at this point (although ESO lags behind here too, but at least it's coming).

bloodthirstyvampire

Its almost like your saying people should be vampires just because with no benefits, it Would make the whole concept of vampires in eso non existent and pointless or nearly pointless

MLGProPlayer

Samadhi wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

Hey look more calls to nerf something that is working perfectly fine as is

Anything that is considered "must have" to the extent people whine constantly about having to look ugly to use it is not, by and definition, "working fine as is".

All The Best

How does people whining about cosmetic appearance reflect on functionality issues?
Can respect that people who prefer to min/max may have objections about being obligated to appear a certain way to do so,
but there is no obligation for people to min/max to begin with, so it feels slightly redundant.

There is an obligation to min-max in every game with a competitive element. Whether its PvE leader boards or PVP, you are competing with other players to be the best.

The obly way to be the beat in ESO is to be a vampire. That's bad game design.

Could you better elucidate these statements?
You say that every game with a competitive element requires players to adhere to specific mechanics in order to be the "best,"
then complain that the only way to be the best in ESO is to adhere to specific mechanics, which is bad game design

Is your complaint that ZOS is adhering to standard competitive design mechanics?

It takes away your ability to customise your character's appearance, which is another core tenet of the MMO genre.

You need to sacrifice appearance for performance. In an MMO context, that is bad game design.