Should Daggers Give Weapon and Spell Crit?

WrathOfInnos

I think it would be nice if the dual wield passive "Twin Blade and Blunt" offered 5% spell Crit as well as the current weapon Crit. This could open up some new build possibilities, especially since dual wield magicka builds have become rare in the last 6 months (primarily due to needing magicka return from staff heavy attacks).

Daggers becoming useful for magicka characters would also be lore-friendly, since most Mage NPC's in previous Elder Scrolls games carried a dagger.

Since the reduction in Crit from the thief stone in HotR, many builds have been looking for ways to raise Crit, and a lot of stamina builds have turned to dual daggers. It would be nice if magicka had a similar option, with the trade off being giving up staff skills on that bar (active and passive).

Edit: Also want to add that no changes would be required for two-handed weapon passives since there are no two-handed daggers in the game (although I also think this is a missed opportunity for spears as a Crit-buffing two hander)

What do you all think?

datgladiatah

Yes, more crit!

Tired of not allowing spell swords in the game, it's a mainstream TES concept. What's the harm in letting people choose melee or range? It's not like daggers would give back mana either.

For that matter Maces should give spell pen. Axes... well idc about those but you know

WrathOfInnos

Yes, more crit!

datgladiatah wrote: »

Tired of not allowing spell swords in the game, it's a mainstream TES concept. What's the harm in letting people choose melee or range? It's not like daggers would give back mana either.

For that matter Maces should give spell pen. Axes... well idc about those but you know

Yep, agree with your point on maces, but I also consider maces useless since AFAIK the 10% is calculated after all other flat reductions in resistances, unlike the destruction staff pen passive which is calculated before other debuffs.

Axe isn't currently too bad for magicka since bleeds are not mitigated by armor, and it does scale with thaumaturge, just not elemental expert. I'm not sure there's any way to improve axes, I certainly don't think they should become a different damage type. Maybe let them scale on whichever Crit is higher?

lolo_01b16_ESO

No, magicka DPS should be happy with fire and lightning sticks

I'd prefer to see 1h magicka weapons instead of adding spell crit to ordinary daggers .

WrathOfInnos

Yes, more crit!

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

I'd prefer to see 1h magicka weapons instead of adding spell crit to ordinary daggers .

Maybe I need more poll options, but it sounds like you are not happy with just fire and lightning staves.

I would also love to see more weapon types in the future. I don't think my suggestion prevents that. It is something that could be added in 5 minutes (most likely 1 line of code), and would help build diversity while the devs work on other things (still hoping for 1h and rune, and also spell crafting).

rossk25

Yes, more crit!

Completely agree, I currently have a magblade who has a staff and DW.

The staff I use for heavy attacks to restore mag. The DW I use purely for the look and the feel of how the magblade plays.
Using DW just makes sense and makes me feel like I am really playing the my character how I would like too.

It would be awesome in DW daggers can also help magicka users as well. with either increase spell crit, or increase dmg. something.

Emma_Overload

Yes, more crit!

Not only Daggers, but the Khajiit racial passive should buff spell crit, too.

Turelus

We had buffs from two weapons to magicka once, everyone ran around with two swords a couple of passives and never used any active abilities from that weapon skill line.

Whilst magicka builds could do with some more options, I don't think returning to the system of just holding items for buffs and never using them is a good idea.

DDuke

Yes, more crit!

There's absolutely no reason why only swords should be worth using of the melee weapons for magicka builds.

Daggers should give spell crit as well, maces spell penetration & axes could do something interesting like make target bleed magicka or something (or just deal magic dmg if magicka/spell dmg are your higher stats).

Kanar

No, magicka DPS should be happy with fire and lightning sticks

I chose no just because your poll options are bad. I think the correct fix is to either create a magicka dual wield weapon line, or add magicka morphs to existing DW skills. If they go with the latter then they could do your suggestion as well as add a passive that changes resource return to magicka instead of stamina.

idk

No, magicka DPS should be happy with fire and lightning sticks

Daggers did provide spell critical when the game launched.

However, for someone choosing DW the swords are a better choice. Basically I voted no to save players from making a poor choice. Really no reason for Zos to change it back since it's not a benefit.

WrathOfInnos

Yes, more crit!

idk wrote: »

Daggers did provide spell critical when the game launched.

However, for someone choosing DW the swords are a better choice. Basically I voted no to save players from making a poor choice. Really no reason for Zos to change it back since it's not a benefit.

I would like to see the math on that one. Swords were at one time better, but they become a little weaker with each patch as we gained more CP's, while daggers became stronger once everyone stopped using the thief stone with HotR and as we get more CP's in crit damage. Dual swords add a flat 5% to damage, but this is additive with other % increases and ends up being only about 3.5% additional DPS. The 10% crit from daggers is more dependent on build, but in most cases ends up being 5-6% additional DPS, that is why stamina dual wield builds rarely use swords.

Vapirko

Yes, more crit!

Yes this would be so awesome for pvp builds.

Arkangeloski

Yes, more crit!

Why not? Its only fair.

Urza1234

No, magicka DPS should be happy with fire and lightning sticks

IMO dual wield magicka builds are silly, were silly, will always be silly, unless Wands/Scepters are added or something.

Dual wield magicka builds were primarily built not to be aesthetically pleasing or lore friendly, but to exploit faulty game design. Daggers just do not equal magicka user in TES, it should be a potato combination.

You want to make a hybrid be my guest, you will probably still be a potato but at least you will be a lore friendly potato.

Vynn

Yes, more crit!

Urza1234 wrote: »

IMO dual wield magicka builds are silly, were silly, will always be silly, unless Wands/Scepters are added or something.

Dual wield magicka builds were primarily built not to be aesthetically pleasing or lore friendly, but to exploit faulty game design. Daggers just do not equal magicka user in TES, it should be a potato combination.

You want to make a hybrid be my guest, you will probably still be a potato but at least you will be a lore friendly potato.

Frankly, magic isn't limited by weapon in TES proper. It is on its own in your hand. I'm not arguing against a magicka DW placeholder. Just saying ESO game mechanics are already far off from the rest of TES. Without an overhaul you can't base all decisions on past TES games. Magicka gets less versatility weapon wise and it should change IMO.

Urza1234

No, magicka DPS should be happy with fire and lightning sticks

Vynn wrote: »

Urza1234 wrote: »

IMO dual wield magicka builds are silly, were silly, will always be silly, unless Wands/Scepters are added or something.

Dual wield magicka builds were primarily built not to be aesthetically pleasing or lore friendly, but to exploit faulty game design. Daggers just do not equal magicka user in TES, it should be a potato combination.

You want to make a hybrid be my guest, you will probably still be a potato but at least you will be a lore friendly potato.

Frankly, magic isn't limited by weapon in TES proper. It is on its own in your hand. I'm not arguing against a magicka DW placeholder. Just saying ESO game mechanics are already far off from the rest of TES. Without an overhaul you can't base all decisions on past TES games. Magicka gets less versatility weapon wise and it should change IMO.

Yeah, honestly weapons in TES proper have little to do with magicka at all, but daggers even less so, since swinging the damned things literally costs stamina. I recognize my original post was kind of limited, but unless you gave daggers a bunch of magicka based weapon abilities I dont think they are the avenue for giving Magicka more weapon versatility.

WrathOfInnos

Yes, more crit!

@Vynn Yes exactly, it's about versatility. Magicka used to have many good options for DPS with:
Inferno staff (still good)
Lightning staff (still good)
Frost staff (now only good for tanking)
Restoration staff (exclusively for healing now, which is ok but it was a shame to lose the non-elemental Magic damage staff)
Dual wield (made more difficult over the last several patches, with Morrowind sustain being the last straw for most)

In the current META, only 2 of those 5 are competitive for DPS. 60% of our options have been removed since realease. Maybe this was intentional, maybe not.

I agree with everyone that says they want more weapon types introduced, but this would be a massive effort to create the art and models given how many motifs are in game now (50ish?). This poll proposes a bandaid fix for possibly increasing mag DPS weapon options until a better system can be implemented.

Merlin13KAGL

No. 1 handers shouldn't even add to spell damage. It's lazy design.

It wouldn't be that difficult for them to add arcane weapons other than staves.

If you don't actually use the weapon, the bonuses should not be there, period.

Urza1234

No, magicka DPS should be happy with fire and lightning sticks

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

No. 1 handers shouldn't even add to spell damage. It's lazy design.

It wouldn't be that difficult for them to add arcane weapons other than staves.

If you don't actually use the weapon, the bonuses should not be there, period.

This, stat sticks have never been good game design.

WrathOfInnos

Yes, more crit!

Why is everyone assuming the daggers wouldn't be used? If dual wielding on a full ranged build, a lot of damage would be lost from light attack weaving.

I'm picturing the return of melee magblade with concealed weapon popping in and out of invisibility. It could also be fun on a magTemp or MagDK, mixing in dagger strikes between sweeps or whips. Both of those classes are primarily melee and would benefit from more crit chance.

Urza1234

No, magicka DPS should be happy with fire and lightning sticks

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Why is everyone assuming the daggers wouldn't be used? If dual wielding on a full ranged build, a lot of damage would be lost from light attack weaving.

I'm picturing the return of melee magblade with concealed weapon popping in and out of invisibility. It could also be fun on a magTemp or MagDK, mixing in dagger strikes between sweeps or whips. Both of those classes are primarily melee and would benefit from more crit chance.

Unless you were sitting on the server with 0 latency and perfect mechanical control you would probably lose DPS by light attack weaving with the dagger on a magicka build. Using any of the dagger abilities would be worse.

Seriously OP just run pelinal nightblade or something.

WrathOfInnos

Yes, more crit!

Dagger weaving would be no weaker or more difficult than sword weaving, which was very common before heavy attack builds became semi-mandatory.

It was an easy decision for most give up the dual sword bonus and maximize damage with staves and heavy attacks. Building for sustain and keeping dual wield simply did not have enough to offer. 10% crit would make this decision a little tougher, and I believe some builds would benefit from dual wield in this case (particularly melee magicka DPS that need more crit). It would be a trade off that requires thought and depends on various factors, not an automatic "this is better, use it, always".

ninjaguyman

Yes, more crit!

it would be great if all of passives from twin blade and blunt as well as the 2h equivalent worked for magicka builds. currently magicka builds can only use dual swords or greatsword if they want to use them. it would be cool if i could use a mace or axe because aesthetics.