Traders and Prices

JUSTAPHELLA

Would a system that involved all traders in the game not being able to sell that item below the majority of the price set overall, be better?

This game needs a reblance in sells. Since bottrrs have been permitted and nothing is done about it even after reporting it. People are making so much gold that they sell everything for cheap at traders and nobody can ever sell anything at a suitable price. You have to work hard just to sell for cheaper then the ridiculous 16k stack of Raw Ancestor Silk for example

Vulsahdaal

No, I don't think so. Any system that dictates a limit on what you can sell an item for, a min or max, disturbs me. Let people price their items they way they want, and let the buyers decide if it is worth it.

JUSTAPHELLA

Vulsahdaal wrote: »

No, I don't think so. Any system that dictates a limit on what you can sell an item for, a min or max, disturbs me. Let people price their items they way they want, and let the buyers decide if it is worth it.

Lol every price will get lower and lower and the game will become worthless as to caring for buying anything anymore. Ill just stick to selling Temps & Rosin, about the only thing left.

Stormahawk

It seems like the better solution (and one that would require far less coding) would be to crackdown on the botting. It seems like botting is the problem here rather than people underpricing stuff.

Someone from ZOS coming online for just a half hour each day and going to popular botting spots with a ban hammer will probably reduce botting by 90%. With some coding involved, they could even add an option in the reporting system to let players report a botting location on the map so that ZOS can be up to date on which locations to target.

supaskrub

Absolutely not, at the end of the day its the buyer who decides whether an item is worth the price it is listed at, if a seller lists an item at too high a price then it won't get sold, if its an attractive price then it gets sold.

Illurian

The problem with your idea is that the meta dictates the prices of overland gear sets. The meta also shifts regularly.

Look at the Necropotence set. A sharpened Necro lightning staff used to be anywhere in the neighbourhood of 300-500k. It now sells for less than 50k.

Having ZOS dictate the prices of items would mean that they are not only directly admitting that there is a large imbalance between set pieces, but would also require tremendous input (every single set, every single item that ever existed would need to be price gauged officially), which is a huge drain on resources that could better be spent elsewhere.

This is all aside from the obvious point that the players are who determine the prices and value of items. An enforced dictated price gauge wouldn't force players to buy the gear sets, but would have the complete opposite effect. Imagine if you got a sharpened lightning necro staff now, and wanted to sell it. Players know it's not worth what it was pre-nerf, and that other (cheaper) sets out perform it. But you're stuck with it and can't sell it, as the dictated price gauge says you can only sell it for 300k or higher.

This would also draw people away from using guild traders. What's to stop them from just /zone chatting and spamming "wts ____ PM me" and selling it through a face to face trade or C.O.D?

TL;DR: Terrible idea, that is less implementable than communism in the real world.

JUSTAPHELLA

So people can feel bothered about over pricing things but i cant have a problem with people under pricing? How do you expect for me and many others make gold if we cant sell at a good price that can help make gold. While those who sell it for cheap have millions. There should be an in game market minimum value.

Stormahawk

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

So people can feel bothered about over pricing things but i cant have a problem with people under pricing? How do you expect for me and many others make gold if we cant sell at a good price that can help make gold. While those who sell it for cheap have millions. There should be an in game market minimum value.

There is an in-game minimum market price on almost all items. It's the vendor price.

Illurian

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

So people can feel bothered about over pricing things but i cant have a problem with people under pricing? How do you expect for me and many others make gold if we cant sell at a good price that can help make gold. While those who sell it for cheap have millions. There should be an in game market minimum value.

Who died and made you king to decide what was a "suitable" price for items?

Supply and demand. If there is more supply than demand, then logic dictates that the prices of the item in question will drop. Go and farm something else.

Ninja edit: Also, there is an in game market minimum value. It's set at what you sell it to the NPCs for.

Illurian

Stormahawk wrote: »

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

So people can feel bothered about over pricing things but i cant have a problem with people under pricing? How do you expect for me and many others make gold if we cant sell at a good price that can help make gold. While those who sell it for cheap have millions. There should be an in game market minimum value.

There is an in-game minimum market price on almost all items. It's the vendor price.

Dang it. Beat me to it.

Rickter

as a consumer - the lower the prices, the better. Ive seen way too many people price gouge because they cant control themselves. Hakeijo for 12.3k a piece when they shouldnt have been worth more than 9.2k

etc

etc

let the botters hit the floor let the botters hit the floor raaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!

AlnilamE

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

So people can feel bothered about over pricing things but i cant have a problem with people under pricing? How do you expect for me and many others make gold if we cant sell at a good price that can help make gold. While those who sell it for cheap have millions. There should be an in game market minimum value.

I make gold well enough by selling items that are normally really cheap, like blue jewelry and non-meta gear, as well as lower tier improvers and provisioning items.

Very rarely I will sell rare motif pages, but only after I've ensured nobody in my guild needs it.

Stormahawk wrote: »

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

So people can feel bothered about over pricing things but i cant have a problem with people under pricing? How do you expect for me and many others make gold if we cant sell at a good price that can help make gold. While those who sell it for cheap have millions. There should be an in game market minimum value.

There is an in-game minimum market price on almost all items. It's the vendor price.

Actually, sanded maple usually sells at guild traders *below* vendor price. It boggles my mind.

Samadhi

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

So people can feel bothered about over pricing things but i cant have a problem with people under pricing? How do you expect for me and many others make gold if we cant sell at a good price that can help make gold. While those who sell it for cheap have millions. There should be an in game market minimum value.

Personally just go on the TTC website and run a price check,
then list at somewhere below the low end of the average/suggested range
so that it moves quickly

there is potential that people simply buy up my stock and resell it at higher prices
but am just impatient when it comes to getting rid of stuff

Caleb_Kadesh

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

Would a system that involved all traders in the game not being able to sell that item below the majority of the price set overall, be better?

This game needs a rebalance in sells. Since botters have been permitted and nothing is done about it even after reporting it. People are making so much gold that they sell everything for cheap at traders and nobody can ever sell anything at a suitable price. You have to work hard just to sell for cheaper then the ridiculous 16k stack of Raw Ancestor Silk for example

What is a suitable price? Prices in the real world are typically set considering labor and material costs, but primarily supply and demand. The problem, aside from the possibility of bots, in most game economies is that labor and material costs aren't considered by most sellers because we are playing a game. The key in most game economies is to be flexible with the product that you are providing. When the market gets flooded move to a different (less available) product. If you are "working" at this game then you are doing it wrong. This is for fun. Right?

Yarlenzey

Illurian wrote: »

The problem with your idea is that the meta dictates the prices of overland gear sets. The meta also shifts regularly.

Look at the Necropotence set. A sharpened Necro lightning staff used to be anywhere in the neighbourhood of 300-500k. It now sells for less than 50k.

Having ZOS dictate the prices of items would mean that they are not only directly admitting that there is a large imbalance between set pieces, but would also require tremendous input (every single set, every single item that ever existed would need to be price gauged officially), which is a huge drain on resources that could better be spent elsewhere.

You probably already know that the value of the sharpened trait was halved by ZOS.
So, in effect they are dictating the market values.

High end traders also hang on to high-end sticks to increase the rarity and sales rates, so that they drop out of MMs range of sales and subsequently have no price guide.

Illurian

Yarlenzey wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

The problem with your idea is that the meta dictates the prices of overland gear sets. The meta also shifts regularly.

Look at the Necropotence set. A sharpened Necro lightning staff used to be anywhere in the neighbourhood of 300-500k. It now sells for less than 50k.

Having ZOS dictate the prices of items would mean that they are not only directly admitting that there is a large imbalance between set pieces, but would also require tremendous input (every single set, every single item that ever existed would need to be price gauged officially), which is a huge drain on resources that could better be spent elsewhere.

You probably already know that the value of the sharpened trait was halved by ZOS.
So, in effect they are dictating the market values.

High end traders also hang on to high-end sticks to increase the rarity and sales rates, so that they drop out of MMs range of sales and subsequently have no price guide.

I would hardly call the intent of balance changes to dictate the market prices. Are the market prices a collateral effect? Sure. But hardly the intent.

Placing a hard cap/floor on market prices would neuter the ability to have a fluid economy entirely, which could eventually be reduced to having the NPCs pay the minimum dictated price. Cut out the middle man. Why have a market at all, then?

kargen27

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

So people can feel bothered about over pricing things but i cant have a problem with people under pricing? How do you expect for me and many others make gold if we cant sell at a good price that can help make gold. While those who sell it for cheap have millions. There should be an in game market minimum value.

Basically you are saying you want to punish players who follow the rules instead of punishing the players that break the rules.

Not all the players under pricing items are botters. Some simply want a fast sell. You get only thirty slots per trader to sell goods. Some players make their gold by quick turn around filling those thirty slots several times a day. Some players spend most their time in game looking for under priced items so they can flip them. Boring as hell to me but fun for them. Why take away their fun because some other players are breaking the rules?

Also what would you do about guild stores with no trader? One guild I am in we don't try for a trader but use the store to help out other members of the guild. You can find weapons and armor for decon priced sometimes at two gold coins, usually no more than 10. Glyphs to level enchanting go about the same price. Green recipes and other common items newer members might want also go cheap. We do this so our guild bank doesn't fill up with common stuff but our members still have access to all the common goodies. Your idea would bring that to a screeching halt and would do nothing to hinder bots in any significant way.

starkerealm

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

Would a system that involved all traders in the game not being able to sell that item below the majority of the price set overall, be better?

No.

If you cap how much players can charge for something, and it is significantly less than the market value, you'd never be able to buy them, because they'd get snapped up almost instantly.

For example, if you couldn't charge more than 20k for Aetherial Dust, you'd never be able to find it in a trader.

If you put a floor on an item, (you must charge this much) and it's significantly higher than the market value for the item, you'd never be able to move it.

If you said you couldn't charge less than 5k for rare pages, no one would list motifs like Merc, or Assassin's League. If there was no limit on sold items, then this wouldn't be as much of an issue, and there'd be a huge glut. But, given you only have 30-150 slots to sell from, this means the items would rarely get listed, and we're back to not being able to buy what you want. And, being forced to overpay for the privilege.

Also, remember, if you're basing the price restrictions off a standard divination from the median, in a market system like ESO, that would be hilariously vulnerable to market manipulation. You want to raise the price of Wax? How about listing multiple stacks for the max permitted, have your buddy buy it immediately, then sell them back to you. Sure, you'd lose money on those transactions, but moving 15k Wax, could shift the median price up significantly, making you more money as you flood the market.

starkerealm

kargen27 wrote: »

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

So people can feel bothered about over pricing things but i cant have a problem with people under pricing? How do you expect for me and many others make gold if we cant sell at a good price that can help make gold. While those who sell it for cheap have millions. There should be an in game market minimum value.

Basically you are saying you want to punish players who follow the rules instead of punishing the players that break the rules.

Not all the players under pricing items are botters. Some simply want a fast sell. You get only thirty slots per trader to sell goods. Some players make their gold by quick turn around filling those thirty slots several times a day. Some players spend most their time in game looking for under priced items so they can flip them. Boring as hell to me but fun for them. Why take away their fun because some other players are breaking the rules?

Also what would you do about guild stores with no trader? One guild I am in we don't try for a trader but use the store to help out other members of the guild. You can find weapons and armor for decon priced sometimes at two gold coins, usually no more than 10. Glyphs to level enchanting go about the same price. Green recipes and other common items newer members might want also go cheap. We do this so our guild bank doesn't fill up with common stuff but our members still have access to all the common goodies. Your idea would bring that to a screeching halt and would do nothing to hinder bots in any significant way.

Full disclosure: I regularly post things for well under market value simply because I want them out of my inventory. If you're wondering what kind of an idiot would sell purple food recipes for 500g, "hi there." The inventory slot is, literally, more valuable to me than the item.

redspecter23

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

Would a system that involved all traders in the game not being able to sell that item below the majority of the price set overall, be better?

This game needs a reblance in sells. Since bottrrs have been permitted and nothing is done about it even after reporting it. People are making so much gold that they sell everything for cheap at traders and nobody can ever sell anything at a suitable price. You have to work hard just to sell for cheaper then the ridiculous 16k stack of Raw Ancestor Silk for example

How do you determine the majority of the price? If there are currently 3 copies of a very rare item posted for 100k each, I can buy those up, post them again for 500k each and nobody can undercut me. Your proposed system is insanely broken. You need to think about edge cases and how to break a proposed system before suggesting it.

The solution to botters is for the devs to hit them hard with the banhammer. I mean an actual dev avatar comes down into the world pulls out a 500 foot tall hammer and smacks the bot with an explosion heard around the zone. The cheering would be intense and the players would rejoice.

kargen27

starkerealm wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

So people can feel bothered about over pricing things but i cant have a problem with people under pricing? How do you expect for me and many others make gold if we cant sell at a good price that can help make gold. While those who sell it for cheap have millions. There should be an in game market minimum value.

Basically you are saying you want to punish players who follow the rules instead of punishing the players that break the rules.

Not all the players under pricing items are botters. Some simply want a fast sell. You get only thirty slots per trader to sell goods. Some players make their gold by quick turn around filling those thirty slots several times a day. Some players spend most their time in game looking for under priced items so they can flip them. Boring as hell to me but fun for them. Why take away their fun because some other players are breaking the rules?

Also what would you do about guild stores with no trader? One guild I am in we don't try for a trader but use the store to help out other members of the guild. You can find weapons and armor for decon priced sometimes at two gold coins, usually no more than 10. Glyphs to level enchanting go about the same price. Green recipes and other common items newer members might want also go cheap. We do this so our guild bank doesn't fill up with common stuff but our members still have access to all the common goodies. Your idea would bring that to a screeching halt and would do nothing to hinder bots in any significant way.

Full disclosure: I regularly post things for well under market value simply because I want them out of my inventory. If you're wondering what kind of an idiot would sell purple food recipes for 500g, "hi there." The inventory slot is, literally, more valuable to me than the item.

Yeah I forgot about the get it out of my inventory angle. Often do that myself.

kargen27

redspecter23 wrote: »

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

Would a system that involved all traders in the game not being able to sell that item below the majority of the price set overall, be better?

This game needs a reblance in sells. Since bottrrs have been permitted and nothing is done about it even after reporting it. People are making so much gold that they sell everything for cheap at traders and nobody can ever sell anything at a suitable price. You have to work hard just to sell for cheaper then the ridiculous 16k stack of Raw Ancestor Silk for example

How do you determine the majority of the price? If there are currently 3 copies of a very rare item posted for 100k each, I can buy those up, post them again for 500k each and nobody can undercut me. Your proposed system is insanely broken. You need to think about edge cases and how to break a proposed system before suggesting it.

The solution to botters is for the devs to hit them hard with the banhammer. I mean an actual dev avatar comes down into the world pulls out a 500 foot tall hammer and smacks the bot with an explosion heard around the zone. The cheering would be intense and the players would rejoice.

Something similar to when you hit a skeever with a maul using wrecking blow except a much larger maul and more travel distance would be nice to see.

erliesc

supaskrub wrote: »

Absolutely not, at the end of the day its the buyer who decides whether an item is worth the price it is listed at, if a seller lists an item at too high a price then it won't get sold, if its an attractive price then it gets sold.

I seen some items in some guilds selling consistantly for 2xs the price avg in MM. Have also seen people consistantly dumping stuff for 1/2 the typical price.

Either people are stupid or they have side deals going on?

Some items have very consistant prices...avg price changes little....which is expected when somebody isn't doing WEIRD STUFF.

With my game I'm pretty much done worrying about farming...crafting...selling stuff. I'm stable at around 1.5 mil and just want to sell enough to stay at that level more or less. Don't need or want a big house....don't use the medium one I have now. So I sell slightly below the MM avg price...if somebody undercuts...I back out and sell in again at a lower price....trying not to sweat the WEIRD.

I want to concentrate on doing what I think is fun...and making reasonable attempts to further my characters without stressing way out. In otherwords...enjoy the game.

Vizier

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

Would a system that involved all traders in the game not being able to sell that item below the majority of the price set overall, be better?

This game needs a reblance in sells. Since bottrrs have been permitted and nothing is done about it even after reporting it. People are making so much gold that they sell everything for cheap at traders and nobody can ever sell anything at a suitable price. You have to work hard just to sell for cheaper then the ridiculous 16k stack of Raw Ancestor Silk for example

No. I'm not a fan of BOTrrs but I'm also not a grinder for materials and items. That said, I see more instances of collusion among Trader Guilds to push prices up, sometimes upwards of 5X or more of the average price.

Also, I suspect they also flood the market on some items, make purchases among themselves to bring prices down on items from such things as events where everyone is participating. They can purchase rare items at very low prices and wait until after the even for huge profits.

Should we then have a limit on prices that exceed the average? Don't even act like there's no Trader Cabal controlling the primary hubs

Solexe

Caleb_Kadesh wrote: »

JUSTAPHELLA wrote: »

Would a system that involved all traders in the game not being able to sell that item below the majority of the price set overall, be better?

This game needs a rebalance in sells. Since botters have been permitted and nothing is done about it even after reporting it. People are making so much gold that they sell everything for cheap at traders and nobody can ever sell anything at a suitable price. You have to work hard just to sell for cheaper then the ridiculous 16k stack of Raw Ancestor Silk for example

What is a suitable price? Prices in the real world are typically set considering labor and material costs, but primarily supply and demand. The problem, aside from the possibility of bots, in most game economies is that labor and material costs aren't considered by most sellers because we are playing a game. The key in most game economies is to be flexible with the product that you are providing. When the market gets flooded move to a different (less available) product. If you are "working" at this game then you are doing it wrong. This is for fun. Right?

Your just wrong here in most of the cases i have observed (as far as labor material costs go). Item harder to farm? Higher price. Takes time? Added price to mat cost for crafted sets/items. Sure there are people that or willing to sell at cost or a loss (I often do this for friends/newbies/guildies), but for the most part people seem to need an incentive before they invest their time in something.

I think I agree with your post in general, but IME your statement that labor costs aren't reflected on in game items prices, seems just factually wrong to this one.

Alchemical

You'll never stop me from undercutting you, I have all the materials and nothing but time to stalk guild traders! Muahahaha!

Seriously though, what would even be the point of having a player driven economy if you need daddy ZOS to come tell you what you can and can't sell? Might as well abolish guild stores altogether and force everyone to vendor everything.

Tan9oSuccka

Alchemical wrote: »

You'll never stop me from undercutting you, I have all the materials and nothing but time to stalk guild traders! Muahahaha!

Seriously though, what would even be the point of having a player driven economy if you need daddy ZOS to come tell you what you can and can't sell? Might as well abolish guild stores altogether and force everyone to vendor everything.

People that knowingly undercut their guild mates are scum.

Solexe

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Alchemical wrote: »

You'll never stop me from undercutting you, I have all the materials and nothing but time to stalk guild traders! Muahahaha!

Seriously though, what would even be the point of having a player driven economy if you need daddy ZOS to come tell you what you can and can't sell? Might as well abolish guild stores altogether and force everyone to vendor everything.

People that knowingly undercut their guild mates are scum.

Your a cute lil snowflake aren't ya?

Tan9oSuccka

Solexe wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

Alchemical wrote: »

You'll never stop me from undercutting you, I have all the materials and nothing but time to stalk guild traders! Muahahaha!

Seriously though, what would even be the point of having a player driven economy if you need daddy ZOS to come tell you what you can and can't sell? Might as well abolish guild stores altogether and force everyone to vendor everything.

People that knowingly undercut their guild mates are scum.

Your a cute lil snowflake aren't ya?

Is that all you have to add to this conversation?

Adults are talking. Grow up.

Alchemical

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

People that knowingly undercut their guild mates are scum.

I don't ask my guild mates what they're selling stuff for. I look up the lowest price, and then I knock about 10% off that. Because I can.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Botters are bad M'Kay!!

But to the OP's idea??? NO!
I am NA/PC,so don't know the console aspects of it, but here is my 2 septims...
As many have said, it is a supply and demand market, just like real life. I was making 200k+ on BA Motifs till ZoS put it in Crown Crates, now price has crashed.. I remember selling Imperial motifs for 175k, now they are 50k.
When ZoS came out with Mythic Ambrosia, for the frirst week, Psijic Ambrosia Recipes went for 175k-250k, then dropped to 50k.
Point is, with each new recipe, gear change, DLC, etc, prices of things will raise or lower. There are those like me that make lots of gold watching these trends. NO TO PRICE CAPS..

Also!! Who remembers before Guild Kiosks? Standing in Riften for hours buying and selling in Zone Chat??? LOl... Those were the days!!
Huzzah!!!