Solution to Bots

KRBMMO

I know this will never see implementation of course, but there is a simple solution to the Bot problem.

To solve the Bot Problem you just need something that will interrupt an automated process. And you want that thing to not inconvenience other players.

Zenimax seems to have been able to eliminate the simpler type of "rubber band bot" at Dolmens but now there are still the more complex bots that run around and farm resources on a predetermined route.

All that's really needed is to sprinkle in a type of sprite that adjusts the character's course slightly. Right now only a few monsters have this ability and there are no bots in these areas. For example the sucky sucky flower thing that brings you back to its location would throw a bot completely off its route so botters curently just don't farm in those areas.

What is needed is a monster that:
1 - Has some kind of "chains" feature to pull a bot off its course by a small amount
2 - Appears randomly and moves around so it is impossible to plot a set course around them
3 - To prevent griefing it would do no actual damage and only sucks in a player once for a very short distance that you would hardly notice if you are actually at the controls. They would be rare enough that you would only encounter one every 4 hours of play, for example.
4 - Unkillable, no experience and no loot. These qualities could even be given to something like some birds, frogs, etc that are currently in game but you can't target.

Elsonso

KRBMMO wrote: »

I know this will never see implementation of course, but there is a simple solution to the Bot problem.

To solve the Bot Problem you just need something that will interrupt an automated process. And you want that thing to not inconvenience other players.

Zenimax seems to have been able to eliminate the simpler type of "rubber band bot" at Dolmens but now there are still the more complex bots that run around and farm resources on a predetermined route.

All that's really needed is to sprinkle in a type of sprite that adjusts the character's course slightly. Right now only a few monsters have this ability and there are no bots in these areas. For example the sucky sucky flower thing that brings you back to its location would throw a bot completely off its route so botters curently just don't farm in those areas.

What is needed is a monster that:
1 - Has some kind of "chains" feature to pull a bot off its course by a small amount
2 - Appears randomly and moves around so it is impossible to plot a set course around them
3 - To prevent griefing it would do no actual damage and only sucks in a player once for a very short distance that you would hardly notice if you are actually at the controls. They would be rare enough that you would only encounter one every 4 hours of play, for example.
4 - Unkillable, no experience and no loot. These qualities could even be given to something like some birds, frogs, etc that are currently in game but you can't target.

It is an interesting idea, and all it has to be is a "gravitational effect". Something that just pulls the character to the side unless a course correction is made. When the bots get off track, they can spend a long time trying to free themselves from some rock or tree, so course interruptions would definitely put a thorn in the side. Until they adapted, of course.

However, you are right in that they will not do it.

It has also been suggested that looting involves a CAPTCHA. They can do the game one where you have to pick all the cars, signs, or barbershop storefronts.

Jayman1000

I hate to break it to you but many bots seem to have the ability to actually detect resource nodes. Meaning even when they get off course they will just home in on the res node if it is there. I have seen bot characters doing this in action. I followed them around until I knew which res nodes they were going to farm, then I went ahead and farmed it before them: Then they simply ignored that node, didn't even approach it but just proceeded to the next one instead. So there is some course correction being done by the bot. Slightly altering the course of characters wont fix anything if a bot can target nodes.

yodased

Just to let you know, programs like mmo viper have logic to break that, if you move off course or die it respawns you or course corrects.

They even have chat bots that respond to people if they ask it if it's a bot I don't think most people understand the complexity of these programs.

The real way, the only way to combat bots is to have game masters that patrol and make it illogical for them to farm gold.

This includes going after the third party sellers in court by the way, if they know ZOS don't mess around and will use your ass if you gold sell, it makes them look at other games.

None of this will happen though because reasons.

Elsonso

yodased wrote: »

Just to let you know, programs like mmo viper have logic to break that, if you move off course or die it respawns you or course corrects.

They even have chat bots that respond to people if they ask it if it's a bot I don't think most people understand the complexity of these programs.

The real way, the only way to combat bots is to have game masters that patrol and make it illogical for them to farm gold.

This includes going after the third party sellers in court by the way, if they know ZOS don't mess around and will use your ass if you gold sell, it makes them look at other games.

None of this will happen though because reasons.

Some bots will get stuck behind a rock or tree, executing the same scripted "break free" behavior. Sometimes for an hour or more.

yodased

lordrichter wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Just to let you know, programs like mmo viper have logic to break that, if you move off course or die it respawns you or course corrects.

They even have chat bots that respond to people if they ask it if it's a bot I don't think most people understand the complexity of these programs.

The real way, the only way to combat bots is to have game masters that patrol and make it illogical for them to farm gold.

This includes going after the third party sellers in court by the way, if they know ZOS don't mess around and will use your ass if you gold sell, it makes them look at other games.

None of this will happen though because reasons.

Some bots will get stuck behind a rock or tree, executing the same scripted "break free" behavior. Sometimes for an hour or more.

Yeah that's because the person creating the path is dumb a.f.

Elsonso

yodased wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Just to let you know, programs like mmo viper have logic to break that, if you move off course or die it respawns you or course corrects.

They even have chat bots that respond to people if they ask it if it's a bot I don't think most people understand the complexity of these programs.

The real way, the only way to combat bots is to have game masters that patrol and make it illogical for them to farm gold.

This includes going after the third party sellers in court by the way, if they know ZOS don't mess around and will use your ass if you gold sell, it makes them look at other games.

None of this will happen though because reasons.

Some bots will get stuck behind a rock or tree, executing the same scripted "break free" behavior. Sometimes for an hour or more.

Yeah that's because the person creating the path is dumb a.f.

I won't argue with that. I go against my "no report" policy when I see these because I figure anyone so stupid deserves to be banned. Not that they probably get banned, but I can dream.

Edit: Anyway, it is not that the bots will not correct themselves if they get pulled off course, it is that the correction is a disruption. It can break apart groups, making single characters more vulnerable to being killed, or cause them to recall to a wayshrine and go over territory that has nothign for them. It is an inconvenience that reduces yields, possibly to a significant level.

NewBlacksmurf

Can I be really honest.
All of that is unnecessary.

oF they actually wanted to prevent them it’s a simple as forcing unique account information that’s logic based. Anyone with a duplicate address would require xyz steps to justify the other account.

Characters should have forced name limitations to make them real

Email addresses would/should also be checked and follow logic based scrutiny.

So once you get to the game itself, simple mechanics that cap gold, exp and loot in a zone per character if you’re there doing X, Y or Z

Limit to new character creation and mail and bank transactions logic based.


At some point you all have to realize this....they intentionally allow bots as there is a positive business occurance that exists. It’s not some mystery, it’s not challenging to stop, it’s that the game developers are doing what they want.

Ever notice how you don’t see GMs and the forum mods ask for this and that to be sent to them.
It’s a low cost operation model by intentional design.


Don’t waste time coming up with solutions as they do not want to prevent the issues. No different than their intentional lack of quality control and release unfinished updates.

These developers aren’t incompetent or lacking knowledge and ability. I use to think so until I met one from WoW who now works for another developer. It’s a corporate intent that drives this madness. What would really throw you is to learn that some DeVs who’ve left may have suggested and designed solutions but when said DeVs realized the actual philosophy, they left as they sought for more reputable work as they too were very talented.

Jayman1000

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

oF they actually wanted to prevent them it’s a simple as forcing unique account information that’s logic based. Anyone with a duplicate address would require xyz steps to justify the other account.

Characters should have forced name limitations to make them real

Email addresses would/should also be checked and follow logic based scrutiny.

So once you get to the game itself, simple mechanics that cap gold, exp and loot in a zone per character if you’re there doing X, Y or Z

All of this can be relatively easily circumvented; this would just make ZOS waste time and resources.

Turelus

I'm really not a fan of mechanical or game effect changes made to counter bots.

The solution is make their work more costly than lucrative, as in actually getting speedy bans and faster reporting features.

Asmael

Won't change anything. I found a bot train and tried to mess up with their rotations, but it's not just a macro but a very advanced script capable of interpreting ingame information. For short, you can set a path on the map and will automatically acquire targets and resume their way.

I even tried to chain down an NPC that was targeted by a bot to mess up with the AI, but the bot will just keep following the NPC, kill it and find a way back to their farming route. Such scripts are currently impossible to mess with as a player, unless you are willing to spend the next hours killing every NPC on the bot's farm route.

And due to where the botting decisions are made, the only realistic way besides implementing an extremely complex botting behavior detection system (with a high risk of banning non-botting players) is... to report and deal with them manually.

Zer0oo

If a bot can beat overland content without problems it means it is too easy.

zaria

Zer0oo wrote: »

If a bot can beat overland content without problems it means it is too easy.

It was way more bots back at launch then overland was harder.

zaria

Asmael wrote: »

Won't change anything. I found a bot train and tried to mess up with their rotations, but it's not just a macro but a very advanced script capable of interpreting ingame information. For short, you can set a path on the map and will automatically acquire targets and resume their way.

I even tried to chain down an NPC that was targeted by a bot to mess up with the AI, but the bot will just keep following the NPC, kill it and find a way back to their farming route. Such scripts are currently impossible to mess with as a player, unless you are willing to spend the next hours killing every NPC on the bot's farm route.

And due to where the botting decisions are made, the only realistic way besides implementing an extremely complex botting behavior detection system (with a high risk of banning non-botting players) is... to report and deal with them manually.

Yes its not simple macros, macros are also used but its just advanced rubberbanding after all throwing AoE around.

And its lots of ways to deal with them automatically, first would be to simply search for the cheat programs in memory.
As I understand the cheat software work much like the Skyrim script extender in that it adds its own API into the game code.

If present its reported and ESO just give an error message. Yes the cheat software will be updated to handle this, ESO also get updated, caught multiple time and get an ban.

Second line of defense is user behavior tracking. A player who farm 24 / 7 only break to sell stuff to vendor or mail to other player is an goldfarming bot. here you want to take down the entire network.
An player who is online 24 / 7 but do normal stuff like exploring, quests. pvp or dungeons from time to time is an player run bot.

Now you can start analyzing the actual behavior, pretty sure its pretty easy to get bots on the movements, like turning on the same coordinates each time but you have already caught the worst offenders.

Tan9oSuccka

lordrichter wrote: »

KRBMMO wrote: »

I know this will never see implementation of course, but there is a simple solution to the Bot problem.

To solve the Bot Problem you just need something that will interrupt an automated process. And you want that thing to not inconvenience other players.

Zenimax seems to have been able to eliminate the simpler type of "rubber band bot" at Dolmens but now there are still the more complex bots that run around and farm resources on a predetermined route.

All that's really needed is to sprinkle in a type of sprite that adjusts the character's course slightly. Right now only a few monsters have this ability and there are no bots in these areas. For example the sucky sucky flower thing that brings you back to its location would throw a bot completely off its route so botters curently just don't farm in those areas.

What is needed is a monster that:
1 - Has some kind of "chains" feature to pull a bot off its course by a small amount
2 - Appears randomly and moves around so it is impossible to plot a set course around them
3 - To prevent griefing it would do no actual damage and only sucks in a player once for a very short distance that you would hardly notice if you are actually at the controls. They would be rare enough that you would only encounter one every 4 hours of play, for example.
4 - Unkillable, no experience and no loot. These qualities could even be given to something like some birds, frogs, etc that are currently in game but you can't target.

It is an interesting idea, and all it has to be is a "gravitational effect". Something that just pulls the character to the side unless a course correction is made. When the bots get off track, they can spend a long time trying to free themselves from some rock or tree, so course interruptions would definitely put a thorn in the side. Until they adapted, of course.

However, you are right in that they will not do it.

It has also been suggested that looting involves a CAPTCHA. They can do the game one where you have to pick all the cars, signs, or barbershop storefronts.

Hah! Well played.

I think it would be great if they added a roaming type boss like in the Imperial Sewers. Immune to pet damage and has a very strong AOE.

Most these bot clowns aren't wearing any armor. They'll get vaporized.

Elsonso

Zer0oo wrote: »

If a bot can beat overland content without problems it means it is too easy.

Single bots usually cannot beat overland content. They travel in packs, and when separated, often die and have to respawn (and catch up). The nature of how they work ensures that stragglers always catch up, but they might die a couple times in the attempt.

cyx54tc

I will just make this simple statement: Bots can never be fully eliminated from MMOs nowadays.

AI and Machine learning are mature enough that they can beat professional gamers (take a look at alpha GO and Dota2 open AI)

As long as a normal human is able to get around the anti-bot mechanics a well trained bot can do so too, or can even do better than a normal human.

So the best MMO companies can do is to make it harder (require more skill) for bot developers to develop one.

KRBMMO

After reading the responses I have to agree - yes it is impossible to make a "bot proof" game or a "cheat proof" game.

It's kind of like locking your car - sure if someone is skilled enough they will get your car no matter what. But that doesn't mean you don't use car locks.

Or lets take your computer - if someone skilled enough really wants to hack you they will. But that doesn't mean you don't purchase AV software to keep away the 99.999% of hackers who aren't that skilled.

starkerealm

Turelus wrote: »

I'm really not a fan of mechanical or game effect changes made to counter bots.

The solution is make their work more costly than lucrative, as in actually getting speedy bans and faster reporting features.

Well, here's a thought. More mobile enemies, who will actively patrol their zones, and less of them standing at a predesignated point, waiting for me to run a blade through the back of their skull.

Combined with more Champion grade enemy patrollers, with greater mobile autonomy within their zones, who will wander, hit hard, but have easily avoided attacks. Possibly with chaining attacks which will deal more damage to large clusters of players in tight proximity.

SirAndy

It's quite simple to program a bot that uses waypoints for their route. So even if the bots gets pulled off their route, they will simply return to the last/nearest waypoint and continue.
If they get stuck, they will simply reset the route.

So in short, pulling them off route is entertaining (i've done it many times) but really has little impact on their overall functionality.

lagrue

I've said a few times now - the real best way to stop all bots on all systems is to make limited product activations.

When a botter gets banned there's virtually nothing stopping them from opening a new account with the same copy of the game.

Each copy of the game should come with 3 codes we submit to an automated system at ZOS, which then generates a valid activation code and then invalidates one of the 3 codes they have forever. Limiting them to 3 accounts per copy of the game. If they manage to get banned on all 3, then they'll have to flat out buy ESO again to continue their antics. (The codes ZOS sent can be used multiple times but only if the SAME email address of PC/XBL/PSN account is applying them. This is to protect legitimate people who change their machines/HDDs or whatever from burning a code)

Example: My game comes with 3 codes. (123, 345, 567) - I decide to use code 123 to activate my account at IloveESO@gmail.com - they sent back ABC, which unlocks the game for that email address account ONLY. If that email is banned, 123 is forever removed from the valid codes. If that email needs to replace their computer at any point, but hasn't been banned, then they can simply continue to use the ABC codes as needed, unless its banned. Make the validation server side as well.

It's almost like a serial number but with an added layer of protection to avoid things like cracks/serial generators.

On PSN and XBL they need to just remove gamesharing all together on ESO. I know it can be done because Destiny's Taken King expansion was unable to be gameshared, so developers do have leeway in that department. Right now on consoles they can make an infinite amount of secondary accounts that hold an ESO account, and as long as they don't do anything bad on the primary, it can keep sharing the game to new secondaries infinitely as they get banned.

I feel the real problem here is that for every bot they stomp out, 2 more arise from the same guy.

Elsonso

SirAndy wrote: »

It's quite simple to program a bot that uses waypoints for their route. So even if the bots gets pulled off their route, they will simply return to the last/nearest waypoint and continue.
If they get stuck, they will simply reset the route.

So in short, pulling them off route is entertaining (i've done it many times) but really has little impact on their overall functionality.

It is the reset of the route that is of interest in this. The more times that the route is reset, and the more time the bot spends getting back to the path, the less effective they are.

TheHarshWinter

2018. Bots already can avoid and fix their routes. Anyway most of bots are paid now. Bots are getting smarter. Wow.

Dapper Dinosaur

The solution I'd attempt if I were Zenimax would be setting a threshold for the number of resource nodes of all types (excluding surveys) collected in any 4 hour window. Let's be realistic, NOBODY farms ores for that long at a time, and anyone attempting to bot would only be allowed to use them for 3 and a half hours at a time, then a forced break before they could do so again, otherwise they would be caught and IP banned on the spot, if Zenimax is capable.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

if you make overland harder...means a lot of stuff gets inaccessible to people...thus inviting bots to make profit...since if ur a single player type u wont be able to do most stuff let alone farm...where bots can choo-choo and kill everything asap... str in numbers...

pauli133

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

The solution I'd attempt if I were Zenimax would be setting a threshold for the number of resource nodes of all types (excluding surveys) collected in any 4 hour window. Let's be realistic, NOBODY farms ores for that long at a time

There are people who spend that long fishing.

Repetitive activity with some level of reward-stimulation attached is cathartic for a certain fraction of the playerbase.

Dapper Dinosaur

Alright, make resource nodes have vastly diminishing returns the more time you spend in a zone in 24-hour periods.

Dawnblade

cyx54tc wrote: »

I will just make this simple statement: Bots can never be fully eliminated from MMOs nowadays.

AI and Machine learning are mature enough that they can beat professional gamers (take a look at alpha GO and Dota2 open AI)

As long as a normal human is able to get around the anti-bot mechanics a well trained bot can do so too, or can even do better than a normal human.

So the best MMO companies can do is to make it harder (require more skill) for bot developers to develop one.

If we assume a developer has a budget larger than the average botter, then we could also assume a major developer could deploy AI to catch / action more accounts botting than botting accounts would be able to avoid being caught.

Start with the basics - most bot accounts in ESO run in groups, stay online for long periods of time, and stay in the same general area doing the same general thing - seems like plenty of 'tells' that would let a developer deploy AI to identify and flag potential botters.

I mean really, how hard is it today to create an AI that monitors the server 24 / 7 and watches for such suspicious behavior, and either refers the flagged account to a human for review or takes a progressive action based on how often said account has been flagged.

zaria

Runescape has some nice tricks for dealing with bots.
Random bosses who spawn if you farm to much. You can run or kill them if good but hard for an bot.
This should work in ESO to, might giving boss some vet dungeon capabilities like AoE single hit kill, reflect damage or immunity in phases designed to wipe bot groups.

Elsonso

TheHarshWinter wrote: »

2018. Bots already can avoid and fix their routes. Anyway most of bots are paid now. Bots are getting smarter. Wow.

This is why bots will spend an hour trying to jump over a tree rather than going around it? Bots might be getting smarter, but I ain't so sure about the people running them.

Runs

I imagine they have to spend quite some time going over all the stupid crap people report, that never should have been reported to begin with.

Someone using rapids on an orc wearing speed gear - speed hacker report.
Someone calling Dunmer the master race in zone chat - Reported for racism, yes I have seen this.
Someone killed me in PvP but I am so super *** uber that no one can kill me without cheating - haxxor reported
Someone jumped on a table and danced naked while I was rping - Seriously...