vAS is fundamentally flawed and my recommendations on how to fix it

Amun93

Before I get into my specific feedback, I would just like to mention a few different things to prevent any confusion. I am not here to sugarcoat this feedback. I am a member of the Council of Raiders and I have given most of this feedback already to @ZOS_Finn . I have spoken to and received feedback from many of the players that are at the top of the current trials leaderboards. I am not making this thread to trash the developers. I believe that you should provide suggestions and ideas instead of just provide negative feedback such as, "This trial sucks". I freely admit that I am long winded and I tend to go more in depth than necessary. With that being said, here is my feedback on vAS.

vAS is fundamentally flawed. Now, you may be asking yourself if you read that correctly. Yes you did. There will be people that will say, "What else did you expect with ZOS?" or "How could you say such a thing?" Just take a deep breath and just give me a chance to explain myself. Yes, I do believe that vAS is fundamentally flawed. IMO the root of the issue stems from the initial design phase of the trial and the decisions made at that time. The idea of making the trial have 3 unique bosses and having variability based on how many bosses you decide to kill is an interesting idea. The issue lies with the execution of the idea. Finn has stated that they wanted vAS to be both an easier trial with killing Olms by himself and the hardest trial with Olms+2. This coupled with the idea of having all 3 bosses active for the Olms+2 fight from 75% down severely limited the design choices for each individual boss. This meant that they had to account for 3 bosses and their mechanics during the fight. This led to the choice to make the attack patterns standardized and repetitive. In addition, they had to limit the number of mechanics of each boss so that there were not too many overlapping mechanics at the same time. Currently each boss has 3 or 4 mechanics and they do not change until execute on Olms. With Olms+0, the side bosses maintain the same attack patterns through the entirety of their respective fights with the sole exception being Felms and the number of jumps that he does. Once you reach Olms, from 90% to 25% the mechanics do not change and the fight the same until you hit execute at 25%. Exacerbating this issue are the spheres that spawn in and give the boss immunity. This makes the fight longer and puts an emphasis on the flaws of the fight itself. With Olms+2, the last miniboss spawns in at 75% and the fight does not change again until 25% and execute starts. The issue with the spheres still exists and is compounded upon by the addition of the minibosses enraging if they are not killed in a certain time period. Once the minibosses are killed, they simply deactivate for 30 seconds and the process starts over again. This lengthens the fight even further.

In addition to the issue with the repetitiveness of the trial, I also dislike the choice of mechanics and how they were incorporated. I dislike the overall direction of the mechanics to be damage, stun, or draining based rather than requiring coordination and interaction. With Olms the mechanics are mostly damage based. There is a lightning pool that drops that does a decent amount of damage in addition to draining your magicka. Olms will also fly into the air and spawn mini lightning pools that radiate out from the origin point and also shoot out additional pools at some members as well. The group simply kites these around to avoid the damage. The frontal steam attack is pretty much an insta death if you are caught by it even if you are a tank. At 90%, 75%, 50%, and 25% the boss will jump 4 times between the two sides and you have an AOE damage on you that stacks if you are stacking on someone and if you stand where he lands, you will be knocked down if you do not block. For execute, you can simply stand on one side and purge through the damage. These mechanics imo are fairly boring and too damage focused.

Now, I will move on to my recommendations on how the trial could be improved or different mechanics that could have been instituted. First off, I would like to start with how to correct the issues of repetitiveness. I like the idea of variable difficulty but I will change the execution of the idea itself. Instead of fighting all 3 bosses from 75% until Olms dies, I would implement phases into the fight where you fight the different bosses either solo, in duos, or all three. Each phase would last 10-20% and it would allow some more freedom to implement additional mechanics for each boss. This eliminates the need for set attack patterns and makes the fight much more variable and enjoyable. So basically you could design it so that you fight Olms from 100-90%, Olms+Felms from 90%-70%, Olms+ Llothis from 70%-50%, Llothis+Felms from 50-30%, Olms from 30%-10% and then all 3 for a final execute for the last 10%.

For the actual mechanics, there are multiple changes that could be implemented to encourage group play and coordination. With the pesky spheres that spawn in, there are set "docking ports" that they go to throughout the fight to channel the invincibility for the boss. There are also little fire bug adds that spawn in. An interesting change would be to allow the destruction of these ports if you kill the flame adds while they are standing over the ports. This rewards coordination and allows counterplay to the spheres to the point where they no longer spawn in if you destroy all of the ports. Next up is Felms, I like the premise of the jump mechanic currently. When he jumps currently, he targets the furthest member from him and leaves red orbs that maim anyone that stand in them. He also has adds that he spawns in as well. I would change this so that when he jumps, he only jumps twice. When he does jump, the player that he jumps to is given a red orb bomb that will detonate in 10 seconds. The player then can choose to sit out of the group and eat the damage OR take the bomb to the adds that spawn in. If the bomb is taken to an add, the add will instantly despawn and the bomb will be consumed. Another mechanic that could be added to Felms is a simultaneous attack on 2 group members. Felms would target 2 different members of the group and they are given different color plumes over their heads. One would be given major slayer for 30 seconds and the other major maim for 30 seconds. The players then can choose to ride out the buff/debuff OR the buff/debuff is immediately cancelled out once the two members touch. Next up is Llothis. I am not a fan of his major defile wave currently. Plus I would like to see more of a connection with how the bosses interact. The adds are not a big deal on the Llothis fight. So to change that, they now will apply a 30% healing debuff to 2 random members of the party. The counter play to that would be that Llothis' defile wave no longer damages players in the cone but purges debuffs instead. This also allows some nice balance for an Olms+2 fight where bombs from Felms can be removed by the poison wave. So it allows some interaction between bosses. Llothis can also have an attack where he also targets 2 members. The each receive a poison sac on them. If they touch, the poison sac will explode and put a DoT on anybody within a 5 meter radius. If they don't touch, the sac will disappear after 15 seconds. Finally for Olms, I would implement a tank swap mechanic similar to the hulk in vMoL. It forces more communication between the tanks and goes with the general theme of the changes I have suggested so far. Additionally, I would love to see a mechanic where the Olms takes advantage of the 4 different areas of the room. To accomplish this, I would have pools like the cleanse pools of stage 7 of vMA. Each pool is a different color and is associated with a different debuff that Olms will give out to 4 random player (minus the tank with taunt). The debuffs would be decreased healing, decreased mag regen, decreased stam regen, and decreased Ult gen.

These are my thoughts and my suggestions for improving vAS. Yes, I do realize that they can not implement these changes and release on the 23rd. I want this feedback to hopefully have some impact on the next trial and maybe have some influence on some slight changes for vAS before the trial goes live. Please feel free to criticize my ideas, give your own ideas, or promptly ignore me if that is your choice.

Inig0

These are the sorts of mechanics that people would love to do. I fully agree with what you're saying. However such drastic changes are really unlikely but they would definitely make the fight more enjoyable and engaging.

fioskal

Agree. It's a cool trial and I like how it's different from the current ones...but I'd love something that requires more engagement, coordination and unpredictability.

ziaodix

I, too, am tired of the same old "mechanics" of trials. It's the major reason I love vHoF. It was so drastically different from vMoL (which I liked), and the crag trials are for the most part boring, with little to no reason to do unless you want a raid parse.

I have yet to step into vAS, I loathe going into PTS and ruining my experience of discovery on Live (I, however, applaud everyone who does to test it), so I can't speak to the trial yet, but it doesn't sound fun which is disappointing.

I agree with you on a lot of points though. I've always felt trials should have group required mechanics, ones that are forced in a way that are fun, and your suggestions all seem very interesting and entertaining.

usmcjdking

I think we need to keep in mind that this is a mini-trial and is therefore unlikely to be aimed at the endgame raiding community. It's designed to accomodate endgame players, but it's more in the vein of the DLC dungeons than it is a MOL/HOF.

Foxic

usmcjdking wrote: »

I think we need to keep in mind that this is a mini-trial and is therefore unlikely to be aimed at the endgame raiding community. It's designed to accomodate endgame players, but it's more in the vein of the DLC dungeons than it is a MOL/HOF.

Have you tried hardmode since the buffs? It is without question the most difficult fight in the game.

Foxic

Honestly alot of those ideas are pretty cool. However as a dps i already thought that the fight on pts1 was the most fun boss in the game and only needed some buffs like the bosses enraging and some damage increases to rain and such which we got.

However the major thing i am worried about is Llothis' defiled blast. In my opinion the damage it does now is just ridiculous and it either needs to be reverted to how it was, or the tell for that ability needs drastic change. The conal aoe growing and then immediately doing damage is too hard to see for how much damage it does

Huyen

This thread seems more for the PTS then actual live servers at this moment. Or just wait next time till its actually on the live servers. No point in discussing stuff that is clearly meant to change a lot, and being commented on by the 1% top-tier raiders.

MakoFore

I wpuld love to see an overhaul of mechanics to see inyeresting things likeke having players seperated to.fight one on one or two vs two aginst mobs, or even at the wnd the group to.fight againdt itself of if thats not sporting mirrired bots, perhaps an upstairs downstaira fight where six go up and six go down where killing mobs undergriund send ghosts up yo so the fastee u kill the more pressure u put on the upper team. Perhaps have players go blind and have to be guided by the other members by voice or signal, similar to rom. Or maybe an dwfence mechanic where a moving cargo has to be protected in groups or one player is unarmed and has to be defended by two teammates as the otger nine are seperatedcand out into somilar groups. The possibilities are endless. I ink the dungeon and trual design was far more original two years ago, but then a change of approach or staff has led to soke very uninspired dungeons and trial mechanics hwre they are all essentually stay out of the red, kill adds and cleanse some soet of curse. Very very sloppy. The sets are similarly uninapired. Add x damage, instead of iriginal ife sets like molag kena. I think its a good thing for a company to habe new fresh minds come in every now and then or innovatuon will inevitanly cease. I mean look at the staff, u have only four peiple in charge of balancwvoand combat ideas, how can that come up with any kind of fresh ideas when theyre constndsly trying and failing to balance. Zos meeds to reset and rethink how they get their ideas, which if they want to get to the tip needs to involve the cimmunity, crowdfusning and criowdsourcing ifeas has to be yhe wat. These guus however avoid our ideas so they can justify their jobs id they dont hink of it and get ideas from outaide thwyre essentuallt amkijg themselvea redundant. As someone who works in a crwarive field, it stifles ideas when the team cannot go outide to ask for ideas.

Alcast

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Honestly alot of those ideas are pretty cool. However as a dps i already thought that the fight on pts1 was the most fun boss in the game and only needed some buffs like the bosses enraging and some damage increases to rain and such which we got.

However the major thing i am worried about is Llothis' defiled blast. In my opinion the damage it does now is just ridiculous and it either needs to be reverted to how it was, or the tell for that ability needs drastic change. The conal aoe growing and then immediately doing damage is too hard to see for how much damage it does

I dont agree with week 1. Pts week 1was boring. Offtank seperately tanks miniboss away and others nuke boss.

Now it is way better because you actually have to deal with the mini bosses. Just need to increase cooldown to 60s after mini boss is dead. And when mainboss uses gust of storm that mini bosses get stunned for the duration.
The fight is alrdy better bc yo can not just stack and burn like in all other trials

Foxic

Alcast wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Honestly alot of those ideas are pretty cool. However as a dps i already thought that the fight on pts1 was the most fun boss in the game and only needed some buffs like the bosses enraging and some damage increases to rain and such which we got.

However the major thing i am worried about is Llothis' defiled blast. In my opinion the damage it does now is just ridiculous and it either needs to be reverted to how it was, or the tell for that ability needs drastic change. The conal aoe growing and then immediately doing damage is too hard to see for how much damage it does

I dont agree with week 1. Pts week 1was boring. Offtank seperately tanks miniboss away and others nuke boss.

Now it is way better because you actually have to deal with the mini bosses. Just need to increase cooldown to 60s after mini boss is dead. And when mainboss uses gust of storm that mini bosses get stunned for the duration.
The fight is alrdy better bc yo can not just stack and burn like in all other trials

Yes I said the bosses enraging is a good change. I'm a fan of most of the buffs that the fight got, I just think they went overboard on the defile blast

DisgracefulMind

usmcjdking wrote: »

I think we need to keep in mind that this is a mini-trial and is therefore unlikely to be aimed at the endgame raiding community. It's designed to accomodate endgame players, but it's more in the vein of the DLC dungeons than it is a MOL/HOF.

No, just no. This trial's HM was made for the hardcore end-game players for sure. It's an extremely hard fight. Not just any group is going to be able to go from HotR dungeons to this trial and have any hope of completing it in a reasonable time if at all. And that's fine. But this HM is, indeed, the hardest fight in the game currently.