Clever Alchemist Fix - is WEAK & LAZY

Crom_CCCXVI

so just to clarify, there is a CP glitch where people can wear alchemist, get their buff and then change their entire armor set really quick while they still have a few seconds on the clock, and the answer is to nerf the whole set for everyone, inlcudiing us on a console? Like this is 2nd grade?

An armor set that is far from overpowered I now am going to have to worry about turning it on to soon, I'll have to make sure I'm officially "in combat", LOL? I can't drink a potion as I'm running in, I can't drink a potion then dragon leap... , I essentially have to say I'm here, wait until I get blasted by crystal frags 9x by the same guy and then if I'm still alive, maybe I can drink? Never mind the Immovable or Magik Regen or whatever else I am trying to do at the same time..... absolute garbage.

I think it's time to cxl my subscription. We have a combat game where 75% of the population is running some version of a sheild stacking Sorc or a no death tank, 1 v 1's take 20 minutes, you have to zerg in PvP just to kill one guy, people running around out there with 4000-5000 damage who can't hurt anyone and it's a joke.... and ALL YOU DO IS NERF DAMAGE SETS
I know, why don't you buff all sheilds by 150% and double all Sorc's magik regen while your at it, that would be great and fit right in with all the other stupid changes of the past year.
Maybe as a sign of not just having absolute lazy customer service, you can let me get back a few gold resources for all the Golded Out Inferno Staves, Viper Sets, Sheild Breaker Sets and all the other sets you have nerfed to worthlessness in an effort to screw anyone that doesn't want to play your Sheild Stacking Sorc META you keep buffing every patch?

Crom_CCCXVI

BTW I meant to say PC glitch, and this is not bar switching, it is literally changing gear

SodanTok

There is no glitch. The reason you can use this set as backbar set (so 4 pieces on front) is the same reason you can unequip it whole and equip different. Even on consoles.

If they really tried hard enough, they could have probably find better way, but out of 2 quick fixes they went with the one that keeps it as backbar set.

Maybe they should just put some effect on it that instantly puts you in combat on potion drink. If that is possible to do in some way.

Skoomah

ZOS has nerfed every set I've used to have fun in this game for pvp in the past several patches starting with Morrowind. They nerfed my Stam DK to the point where it's not fun anymore. Heavy attacks don't register anymore so I can't even sustain the way the devs want me too. Why doesn't ZOS ban the use of add ons that break the damn game. MIATS, auto switch gear, auto block, auto heal, Cheat Engine, and all the add ons programmed but not shared with the community. Instead of fixing the core issue of allowing crap add ons, they keep nerfing all the fun out of the game!

But you know what? They invite streamers who created the cheats and take their advice and change the game to cater to them. While the rest of the community suffers from laggy servers, not fun game play, and nerf after nerf. They keep increasing our power level with CPs but lower it at the same time by nerfing all the sets that make the game fun and characters unique. Why theory craft new builds when every patch it's get blown up with dumb changes????

DisgracefulMind

While I agree that the CA nerf does seem to be a bit heavy handed, it was nerfed because ZoS has been slowly removing easy ganks from stealth from the game for awhile now. Will ganking still be possible? Yes. It hasn't even been a huge issue since Morrowind, in my opinion, and I think that ZoS placing these requirements on the the CA set is silly.

However, with that being said, no sets are getting changed because of addons. Honestly, rarely anyone on PC gear swaps in the way you're describing. You're expressing frustration that ZoS is nerfing sets that you consider "fun" and blaming it on addons, which isn't the case. You list Viper, which was extremely overperforming for multiple, multiple patches and deserved its nerf, you list shield breaker which is STILL incredibly strong. Remember that meta changes, traits and sets will get nerfed/buffed, etc. As long as we continue to gain power, sets/traits will become more powerful or weaker depending.

As for the other issues you describe with PvP, I agree, ZoS should honestly focus of fixing them ):

Beardimus

So you sort of had a point about the set. Then lost your way getting ranty and switching to Nerf Sorc mode....

Honestly. You know some Sorcs run CA right? It's a Nerf to their burst too....

Even mentioning shield stacking now loses a thread all credibility. No Sorc i know is triple stacking since MW.....

Feanor

I think it will totally help to open another 20 threads about this.

generalmyrick

Wait...I'm a ps4 pleb, you're mad because you drink a potion then change all of your equipment and lose the bonus?

I think there is too much resistance in the game too...but this seems a little much.

FloppyTouch

Feanor wrote: »

I think it will totally help to open another 20 threads about this.

Double dare me

Thogard

Skoomah wrote: »

ZOS has nerfed every set I've used to have fun in this game for pvp in the past several patches starting with Morrowind. They nerfed my Stam DK to the point where it's not fun anymore. Heavy attacks don't register anymore so I can't even sustain the way the devs want me too. Why doesn't ZOS ban the use of add ons that break the damn game. MIATS, auto switch gear, auto block, auto heal, Cheat Engine, and all the add ons programmed but not shared with the community. Instead of fixing the core issue of allowing crap add ons, they keep nerfing all the fun out of the game!

But you know what? They invite streamers who created the cheats and take their advice and change the game to cater to them. While the rest of the community suffers from laggy servers, not fun game play, and nerf after nerf. They keep increasing our power level with CPs but lower it at the same time by nerfing all the sets that make the game fun and characters unique. Why theory craft new builds when every patch it's get blown up with dumb changes????

Stam DK is dead. Come switch to stamplar like I did. Open each fight with PotL, which doesn’t scale off wep dmg, and it’ll put you in combat from range before you use a gap closer.

Or back bar a resto and pop em with a LA to get in combat.

This nerf really only affects stamblades and magblades.

Titansteele

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I think it will totally help to open another 20 threads about this.

Double dare me

Insert a certain pulp fiction MEME here which ends with Mr Jackson saying "I Triple Dare you"

To be clear, I have no dog in this fight but just want to see Feanor create loads of threads

Feanor

Not gonna happen @Titansteele, I don’t even have a CA set at that point

doslekis

I wasn't even aware of this bug you speak of. I assumed they were trying to nerf ganks from stealth. I also know a few bomb blades who wear this along with VD, which along with the destro ult nerf would hit them pretty hard.

yodased

Yea it was b.s. exploit that has to be reported. Apparently this has been a thing for a very long time, working with the pre ious iteration of 1shot gank builds like viper and veli.

So this is the only mmo I know of that allows a player to kill another player without counterplay. It has been slowly edged out to be more in line with their plans, attacking from stealth gives you a major advantage and allows for control of the fight, but it's not a guaranteed win.

All of the push back against this change really seem to stem from players who want the ability to guarantee a win against another player.

That's the crux of this divide amongst players, it always has been. Now, I understand that things like miats negates this play style and i believe that should be limited, but, in no way, should you ever have a guaranteed win against another player.

altemriel

Crom_CCCXVI wrote: »

so just to clarify, there is a CP glitch where people can wear alchemist, get their buff and then change their entire armor set really quick while they still have a few seconds on the clock, and the answer is to nerf the whole set for everyone, inlcudiing us on a console? Like this is 2nd grade?

An armor set that is far from overpowered I now am going to have to worry about turning it on to soon, I'll have to make sure I'm officially "in combat", LOL? I can't drink a potion as I'm running in, I can't drink a potion then dragon leap... , I essentially have to say I'm here, wait until I get blasted by crystal frags 9x by the same guy and then if I'm still alive, maybe I can drink? Never mind the Immovable or Magik Regen or whatever else I am trying to do at the same time..... absolute garbage.

I think it's time to cxl my subscription. We have a combat game where 75% of the population is running some version of a sheild stacking Sorc or a no death tank, 1 v 1's take 20 minutes, you have to zerg in PvP just to kill one guy, people running around out there with 4000-5000 damage who can't hurt anyone and it's a joke.... and ALL YOU DO IS NERF DAMAGE SETS
I know, why don't you buff all sheilds by 150% and double all Sorc's magik regen while your at it, that would be great and fit right in with all the other stupid changes of the past year.
Maybe as a sign of not just having absolute lazy customer service, you can let me get back a few gold resources for all the Golded Out Inferno Staves, Viper Sets, Sheild Breaker Sets and all the other sets you have nerfed to worthlessness in an effort to screw anyone that doesn't want to play your Sheild Stacking Sorc META you keep buffing every patch?

it is sad, that instead of fixing the exploit, keeping the 5 piece bonus up ,even when changing to another gear set, they just nerfed clever alchemist.

the only thing they should have done is to prevent the bonus to be active when undressing the set, so sad zos.....

Zvorgin

They want to get rid of ganking/bombing and that's good for pvp.

Kuratius

The thing is, ZOS already has code that checks whether a skill is on your bar and removes its buffs if you remove it (see for example the sword and shield skill- activate it and you'll lose the 30 sec reflect buff immediately if you remove the skill from your bars. I reckon the same principle applies to checking if your equipment allows you to get the clever alchemist buff.

So there's not really a justification for nerfing it in this way just to fix an exploit.

SodanTok

Kuratius wrote: »

The thing is, ZOS already has code that checks whether a skill is on your bar and removes its buffs if you remove it (see for example the sword and shield skill- activate it and you'll lose the 30 sec reflect buff immediately if you remove the skill from your bars. I reckon the same principle applies to checking if your equipment allows you to get the clever alchemist buff.

So there's not really a justification for nerfing it in this way just to fix an exploit.

Yes, but it is intentionally not done for alchemist so you can use it as backbar set.

geonsocal

Zvorgin wrote: »

They want to get rid of ganking/bombing and that's good for pvp.

I agree with your statement; however,
I wholeheartedly disagree with the premise that cyrodiil is a better place without ganking and bombing...

I believe ganking and bombing are legit playstyles which help make cyrodiil both fun and exciting - teaches lazy players a lesson and helps punish ball groups - or, at least used to...

no one should feel safe enough to go afk sitting on their horse and still not be able to be killed...

kill the tank - bring back the gank...

taishal

Kuratius wrote: »

The thing is, ZOS already has code that checks whether a skill is on your bar and removes its buffs if you remove it (see for example the sword and shield skill- activate it and you'll lose the 30 sec reflect buff immediately if you remove the skill from your bars. I reckon the same principle applies to checking if your equipment allows you to get the clever alchemist buff.

So there's not really a justification for nerfing it in this way just to fix an exploit.

This is actually not correct. For example, see the addon Assist Rapid Riding:

"When you mount, this addon changes one of your action slot to skill ability 'Rapid Maneuver'(RM) or its morph. The replaced skill ability will be restored after you use RM or dismount"

The Rapids stays with you for it's duration even though it is not on the bar.

Kuratius

SodanTok wrote: »

Kuratius wrote: »

The thing is, ZOS already has code that checks whether a skill is on your bar and removes its buffs if you remove it (see for example the sword and shield skill- activate it and you'll lose the 30 sec reflect buff immediately if you remove the skill from your bars. I reckon the same principle applies to checking if your equipment allows you to get the clever alchemist buff.

So there's not really a justification for nerfing it in this way just to fix an exploit.

Yes, but it is intentionally not done for alchemist so you can use it as backbar set.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. They way skills currently work would explicity allow you to backbar the set, same as with skills.

taishal wrote: »

Kuratius wrote: »

The thing is, ZOS already has code that checks whether a skill is on your bar and removes its buffs if you remove it (see for example the sword and shield skill- activate it and you'll lose the 30 sec reflect buff immediately if you remove the skill from your bars. I reckon the same principle applies to checking if your equipment allows you to get the clever alchemist buff.

So there's not really a justification for nerfing it in this way just to fix an exploit.

This is actually not correct. For example, see the addon Assist Rapid Riding:

"When you mount, this addon changes one of your action slot to skill ability 'Rapid Maneuver'(RM) or its morph. The replaced skill ability will be restored after you use RM or dismount"

The Rapids stays with you for it's duration even though it is not on the bar.

Mate, I know what I'm talking about.
Check for example lightning form: The lightning effect (and thus, the aoe damage) disappears as soon as you remove the skill from your bar, as seen here:

https://youtu.be/-PGSNoPFWh0

That mechanic IS in the game.


How you implement it for equipment ( for example: 'attempt to remove gear' =>'check if clever alchemist is active=> allow/disallow removal attempt) is up to the devs, but anyone who claims it is a challenge will have to deal with me calling them a liar.

taishal

[/quote]

Mate, I know what I'm talking about.

That mechanic IS in the game.
[/quote]

OK mate. The addon does what it states...and you get Rapids even after it goes off your bar... I call it like I see it.

Hurika

Is there some irony that TBS wouldn't let you keep your mundus stones if you removed and re-equiped but the easy fix was to leave it broken.

Now CA lets you swap and the easy fix is to make the set useless instead of doing a REAL fix.

yodased

Hurika wrote: »

Is there some irony that TBS wouldn't let you keep your mundus stones if you removed and re-equiped but the easy fix was to leave it broken.

Now CA lets you swap and the easy fix is to make the set useless instead of doing a REAL fix.

How is it useless now lol?

STEVIL

taishal wrote: »

Mate, I know what I'm talking about.

That mechanic IS in the game.
[/quote]

OK mate. The addon does what it states...and you get Rapids even after it goes off your bar... I call it like I see it.
[/quote]

The key is skills slotted and set pieces worn are NOT the same thing, no matter how folks want to think they are. Many sets already allow the set to be unequipped and their effects to continue - CA does this every time it is backbarred. (remember -bar swapping *IS* unequipping the fifth CA piece for all intents and purposes but the buff is going to continue.

it seems pretty clear that for a wide number of cases, the buffs that *spawn* from sets (as opposed to continually running boosts) tend to be set as "fire and forget" and making changes to that cocde runs a high risk of going beyond the scope of CA - while limiting CA to "combat only" is relatively safe and quick.

I am not thrilled with the change either - but i understand it as a "lesser of evils" compromise solution.

Chronicburn

Yes WEAK AND LAZY ... the person in charge of "balance" is now just looking for excuses to justify his job!
I will add "useless and pathetic" as adjectives

STEVIL

Chronicburn wrote: »

Yes WEAK AND LAZY ... the person in charge of "balance" is now just looking for excuses to justify his job!
I will add "useless and pathetic" as adjectives

interesting...

most of the replies have been of the flavor of "exploit fix is needed but choice of change is bad"

you seem to be of a different position that the exploit of add-on total swap out yet retain bonus did not need fixing and was just excuse to justify job?

Am i reading that right?