A Solution for the DLC Random Dungeons: Incorporating ESO, Economics, and Incentives

AjiBuster499

As I was ranting to some friends over getting Bloodroot Forge (it was on normal, but it's still a pain) in the random queue, we came up with this idea to give ZoS a financial incentive to exclude DLC dungeons from the queue:
Spread on the forums and in game that new players should not buy the DLC if they do not want to do DLC dungeons in a random queue, nor should they subscribe. Those of us who already have the DLC or are subcribed will have to suffer until it takes effect, but if this tactic is applied diligently and is given enough time to work it's way through the system to ZoS's quarterly revenue statement, they will realized "Oh shoot, we need to do something about this DLC boycott. Let's remove DLC dungeons from the queue!"
And thus we have a rage-free random day.

Comments/Queries/Concerns/Suggestions? Place them in the comment section below!

Kurkikohtaus

Makes absolutely no sense to/for anyone.

SanTii.92

seems like you are doing random queues solely for the xp? if so you are doing it wrong, if not fail to see the issue with playing funs dungeons like bloodroot.

PlagueSD

I have a better suggestion. Start the 15 min penalty counter when you ENTER the dungeon (maybe increase it to 30 mins). If you are in a dungeon for at least 15/30 mins, you get no penalty for leaving. That means you at least TRIED to do the random and instead of banging you head against a wall for an hour trying to finish, you're able to leave the group and incur no penalty. For those "elitists" that drop after getting a dungeon they don't want to run, they will still get the 15/30 min penalty...

AjiBuster499

PlagueSD wrote: »

I have a better suggestion. Start the 15 min penalty counter when you ENTER the dungeon (maybe increase it to 30 mins). If you are in a dungeon for at least 15/30 mins, you get no penalty for leaving. That means you at least TRIED to do the random and instead of banging you head against a wall for an hour trying to finish, you're able to leave the group and incur no penalty. For those "elitists" that drop after getting a dungeon they don't want to run, they will still get the 15/30 min penalty...

This isn't about the penalty. This is about getting ZoS to remove DLC dungeons from the queue.

AjiBuster499

SanTii.92 wrote: »

seems like you are doing random queues solely for the xp? if so you are doing it wrong, if not fail to see the issue with playing funs dungeons like bloodroot.

I run these with a guild that mainly consists of new players, and I try to help them get their feet wet in PvE. So, when you have 2 people who have little to no experience in dungeons (like my group had) and only 1 person who had run the dungeon (the 3rd, I haven't done hotr dungeons yet until now) it's not fun. If I had a proper group composition with better players, then it would probably be an enjoyable run indeed. I will agree with you on that. But again, low level players with little experience in dungeons being placed into a DLC dungeon isn't fun.

PlagueSD

AjiBuster499 wrote: »

PlagueSD wrote: »

I have a better suggestion. Start the 15 min penalty counter when you ENTER the dungeon (maybe increase it to 30 mins). If you are in a dungeon for at least 15/30 mins, you get no penalty for leaving. That means you at least TRIED to do the random and instead of banging you head against a wall for an hour trying to finish, you're able to leave the group and incur no penalty. For those "elitists" that drop after getting a dungeon they don't want to run, they will still get the 15/30 min penalty...

This isn't about the penalty. This is about getting ZoS to remove DLC dungeons from the queue.

Why? You don't want to run DLC dungeons, you don't have to queue for them. If you're doing "random" dungeons for the extra xp/loot, guess what, getting a DLC dungeon occasionally is part of the requirement.

disintegr8

I don't have an issue with the DLC dungeons (normal mode) being allocated in the random queue but you should only be placed there once you have reached a certain level. I'd suggest DLC dungeons are at least level 35 or 40 and over standard.

I have not run a random dungeon in an awful long time but even when we only had IC and SotH, it always seemed you got put in their dungeons far more frequently than the laws of randomness should allow.

Back then, a level 18 would not get placed in 'harder' original dungeons, like Blackheart Haven, because they had a minimum required character level, yet you could still get put in WGT, which was harder.

No matter what anyone says, all DLC dungeons are much harder than most of the original normal dungeons, yet you can get placed in them on your very first dungeon. A group of 4 players between levels 15 and 20, on their first ever characters, would not be expected to clear RoM - so why should random dungeon finder place them there?

Everyone should have a right to go for the daily random bonuses and telling them to 'not select' these dungeons stops them from even having a chance of getting the bonuses - and is close to elitism.

VaranisArano

ZOS has decided that players should have access to the content they paid for, regardless of the level of character. ZOS has also retained the pre-One-Tamirel level limits on Normal Dungeons, so that dungeons only unlock in queue at certain levels for low level characters.

Thus a level 10 character who has ESO+ can queue for WGT, ICP, RoM, CoS, Bloodroot, Falkreath, Fungal Grotto I & II, Spindle I & II, and Banished Cells I & II. Half of their random normal dungeons will be a DLC dungeon statistically.

I have rarely seen a better example of Caveat Emptor.

However, keep in mind that even if ZOS unlocked all the dungeons, a level 10 with ESO+ would still have a 20% chance to randomly end up in a DLC dungeon, just like every other player with ESO+.

disintegr8

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS has decided that players should have access to the content they paid for, regardless of the level of character. ZOS has also retained the pre-One-Tamirel level limits on Normal Dungeons, so that dungeons only unlock in queue at certain levels for low level characters.

Thus a level 10 character who has ESO+ can queue for WGT, ICP, RoM, CoS, Bloodroot, Falkreath, Fungal Grotto I & II, Spindle I & II, and Banished Cells I & II. Half of their random normal dungeons will be a DLC dungeon statistically.

I have rarely seen a better example of Caveat Emptor.

However, keep in mind that even if ZOS unlocked all the dungeons, a level 10 with ESO+ would still have a 20% chance to randomly end up in a DLC dungeon, just like every other player with ESO+.

Very nicely put.

So it's a bit like a car maker selling you a car that can do 280 km/h and it accelerates to that speed the first time you drive it whether you like it or not - then telling you if you were not ready for it, you shouldn't have bought it.

Deheart

Uh, I honestly don't understand the point of this thread.

Why do you want to exlcude the dlc's from the que? Did I miss a single word again that would make what the OP said make sense to me? Not putting OP down, just trying to understand the problem. What am I missing?

VaranisArano

Deheart wrote: »

Uh, I honestly don't understand the point of this thread.

Why do you want to exlcude the dlc's from the que? Did I miss a single word again that would make what the OP said make sense to me? Not putting OP down, just trying to understand the problem. What am I missing?

The DLC dungeons are supposed to be the hardest dungeons in the game. They are designed as end game content with tough boss mechanics that can't be ignored and that test each player's execution of their chosen role. They are meant to provide a challenge for max-level players.

New players (or old players re-rolling an alt character) can queue for random normal dungeons starting at level 10. A new player with all 3 dungeon DLCs will end up in a DLC dungeon 50% of the time. Is it possible for them to complete the dungeons? Sure, but its going to take a long time and will often be a difficult, grueling grind.

The general gist on the forums (this topic comes up a lot) is that:
1. New players and experienced players rolling new toons don't like ending up in difficult dungeons again and again and again. (Remember, DLC dungeons are 50% of the ones level 10s can queue for.)
2. Experienced players with higher level characters don't like ending up queued for DLC dungeons with a bunch of low levels who are more likely to struggle with the mechanics or to not even understand the mechanics at all.

At best, more experienced players have the time to walk the newer players through the mechanics and how to do their roles in some of the more difficult dungeons in the game. At worst, the experienced players leave, or kick, or have to deal with a long grueling dungeon run in order to get a complete. Low level players have to endure a trial by fire as they have to figure out mechanics and make do without a full complment of skills, or for new players, no Champion Points, in what is again some of the hardest dungeons in the game.

Or to provide a very specific point. Vaults of Madness cannot be queued for until level 45, despite that its most complicated boss mechanics are a boss that reflects damage onto a random player, dodging lots of fire, and doing the hokey-pokey with the final boss. Its not a hard dungeon, just long. White Gold Tower has a harvester that locks people in a cage, portals that must be destroyed, the Planar Inhibitor with tricky aggro mechanics, and a multi-stage final boss fight with fire, lighting, knockbacks, and one-shot adds...and is one of the common dungeons at level 10.

So that's the problem with the way ZOS has designed the normal dungeon queues. Having access to the DLC dungeons means new players have to do harder DLC dungeons more often than easier dungeons that don't unlock until higher levels.

AjiBuster499

Deheart wrote: »

Uh, I honestly don't understand the point of this thread.

Why do you want to exlcude the dlc's from the que? Did I miss a single word again that would make what the OP said make sense to me? Not putting OP down, just trying to understand the problem. What am I missing?

Because for the sake of the newbies (shows vet trial achieves and 615 CP to indicate that he is not a newbie) it'd be best to remove the DLC dungeons from the queue. Companies usually don't act without a reason that benefits them. Therefore, give them a financial reason (the best kind) to remove DLC dungeons from the queue.

Also what Varanis said.

strebor2095

its actually a really easy solution:

Split the Normal Queue into "Recommended Random" and "All Random".

Recommended Random chooses based on your level (similar to pre 1-Tam level gating on dungeons.). DLC are recommended at 45+

Vet Queue can stay as it is, because well, you should know how to do them on normal before attempting vet.

Ulfgarde

Should really restrict DLC dungeons to level 50. ZOS needs to stop this "play as you want when you want" mentality applied in every corner of this game.

Merlin13KAGL

Considering two of the last three have exclusively been four man dungeons, obvious thread is obvious?

If you want to exclude certain dungeons from the queue, use the specific dungeon finder.

Perhaps disallowing players to use the random at all until they've gotten one clear on a particular dungeon would be more appropriate?

People are not going to exclude themselves from 99% of some content because they have issue with a 1% of it.

zaria

Can agree to some degree on vet dlc since they are not very pugable, at least unless all know them well, something you can not assume for pugs.

Random normal is another story, if they remove them from random it will be very hard to do them.

Random normal's has the problem that low level players can only do the zone 1 dungeons and the dlc ones.
This dates back far before 1 tamriel then normal dungeons had same level as zone they was in.
Changing the system so level 10 only got 1 dungeons, 20 and you got the non numbered ones 30 add the 2 dungeons and dlc at 40 would work way better.

heartburnkid

@* level 10-40’s getting carried by one level 660cp character.

This can be solved easily by just removing the one eso nonsense and have the dungeons tiered by level until you hit 50.

VaranisArano

heartburnkid wrote: »

@* level 10-40’s getting carried by one level 660cp character.

This can be solved easily by just removing the one eso nonsense and have the dungeons tiered by level until you hit 50.

The dungeons ARE tiered by leveled until you hit level 45 just like they were pre-One Tamriel. The issue is that the DLC dungeons are available from the start because ZOS reasonably believes that people who paid for DLC content should be able to access that content at any point - even though that means new players ending up in harder DLC dungeons more often starting at level 10.

Huyen

And ZoS wont care a bit. The only thing they need to change is the fact that you can enter a DLC-dungeon at level 10 right now, wich is completely bonkers.

Motherball

Simple checkbox would suffice - ignore dlc. The least they could do is mark which dungeons in the list are the dlc ones. As a new player, I have to go to the internet to figure out which dungeons to avoid.

profundidob16_ESO

DLC normal dungeons should not be available before level 40 or 45 something, pretty much the way Vault of maddness etc is right now. Those type however could be available as of lvl 30 easily.

That would give those new players at least a chance of learning to play the basic mechanics of the game and gather some gear before they have to focus on specific harder boss challenges

in addition I like the idea of a "Random dungeon (DLC excluded)" option, so that people could choose to end up in DLC's or not depending on their need for a quick random or specific reasons to go into DLC (gear, exploration)

Jeremy

AjiBuster499 wrote: »

As I was ranting to some friends over getting Bloodroot Forge (it was on normal, but it's still a pain) in the random queue, we came up with this idea to give ZoS a financial incentive to exclude DLC dungeons from the queue:
Spread on the forums and in game that new players should not buy the DLC if they do not want to do DLC dungeons in a random queue, nor should they subscribe. Those of us who already have the DLC or are subcribed will have to suffer until it takes effect, but if this tactic is applied diligently and is given enough time to work it's way through the system to ZoS's quarterly revenue statement, they will realized "Oh shoot, we need to do something about this DLC boycott. Let's remove DLC dungeons from the queue!"
And thus we have a rage-free random day.

Comments/Queries/Concerns/Suggestions? Place them in the comment section below!

Players who have not purchased any of the DLC already have this option. So I can't really think of a good argument against including this as an option for everyone else.

Free advice: if you find normal Bloodroot to be bad - then never step into veteran as you are likely to have an aneurysm from the rage that one will cause you. Because normal is easy by comparison.