Underwhelming Mag Warden

vpy

My previous Mag toons were Mag NB, Mag Plar and Mag Sorc

Mag NB was perms stealth sneak bomber and is an awesome fun play style

Mag Plar is a ranged cannon thunder with a near 1 button annihilate all play style

Mag Sorc...nuff said

While Mag Warden I am not seeing a powerful nuke comparable to DF of Mag Plar or anything that is unique and awesome only to Mag Warden

How do you guys feel ?

Turelus

Erm... I'm just going to say I feel like everyone else on this one, and leave a link.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Search=magicka+warden

scipionumatia

I've grown to like the warden, it's different but adaptable. Has a lot of utility and the only class in the game that can achieve major heroism

AzraelKrieg

Another topic about how underwhelming mag warden is? Huzzah.

Turelus

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Another topic about how underwhelming mag warden is? Huzzah.

From my understanding it's only for PvE DPS though right?

Rair.Kitani

I left ESO before Homestead on PC and started playing again on PS4 a month ago, playing as a warden. I'm now ~CP150 and don't really know if I should continue on this character or just leave him as a crafter. But the more I read on the forums and the PTS patchnotes, I think I'll rather grind the mainquest and dominion area again than gimping myself for vet dungeons or trials.

AzraelKrieg

Turelus wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Another topic about how underwhelming mag warden is? Huzzah.

From my understanding it's only for PvE DPS though right?

That's what I gathered. I don't do mag warden DPS. My mag warden is for healing. So many trees.

ADarklore

Considering the entire design of the Warden as stated by ZOS was for 'group utility' I'm surprised people are surprised how poorly it performs at DPS.

Nestor

ADarklore wrote: »

Considering the entire design of the Warden as stated by ZOS was for 'group utility' I'm surprised people are surprised how poorly it performs at DPS.

Exactly, you can't play a Warden like you play other classes. Wardens are about DoT's and tactics to take advantage of that. While Wardens are intended to be a Group Support and Utility Class, it can solo most PvE content just fine, as long as one realizes it is not a DPS machine.

Where you can take the most advantage of the Warden is with sustaining your health and magic while you meter out damage. But don't expect to be DPSing Vet Trials with it.

Turelus

Nestor wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Considering the entire design of the Warden as stated by ZOS was for 'group utility' I'm surprised people are surprised how poorly it performs at DPS.

Exactly, you can't play a Warden like you play other classes. Wardens are about DoT's and tactics to take advantage of that. While Wardens are intended to be a Group Support and Utility Class, it can solo most PvE content just fine, as long as one realizes it is not a DPS machine.

Where you can take the most advantage of the Warden is with sustaining your health and magic while you meter out damage. But don't expect to be DPSing Vet Trials with it.

There is the problem. Almost no one wants "group utility" in trials, they want (and need) DPS which the Warden can't achieve so they get benched and people don't get to play their characters in content they want to play.

Yes there is the argument of getting groups together which do allow it, but I personally don't feel we should have a class that isn't allowed to compete at the highest level because it was designed for a role which isn't required.

ADarklore

Turelus wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Considering the entire design of the Warden as stated by ZOS was for 'group utility' I'm surprised people are surprised how poorly it performs at DPS.

Exactly, you can't play a Warden like you play other classes. Wardens are about DoT's and tactics to take advantage of that. While Wardens are intended to be a Group Support and Utility Class, it can solo most PvE content just fine, as long as one realizes it is not a DPS machine.

Where you can take the most advantage of the Warden is with sustaining your health and magic while you meter out damage. But don't expect to be DPSing Vet Trials with it.

There is the problem. Almost no one wants "group utility" in trials, they want (and need) DPS which the Warden can't achieve so they get benched and people don't get to play their characters in content they want to play.

Yes there is the argument of getting groups together which do allow it, but I personally don't feel we should have a class that isn't allowed to compete at the highest level because it was designed for a role which isn't required.

I fully agree... ZOS should not be creating 'specialized' classes that cannot perform on equal footing with other classes. They need to release classes that are able to be DPS first and foremost and utility secondary. The overwhelming majority of players want to DPS, trying to force players to play only utility is not what people want or will be happy with... especially coming from a game that is so solo-centric.

Enslaved

This is simply a misconception, I am sure some mSorc will come to educate us. mWar is OP because, you see, it has birds. On the other hand, mSorc is really weak, Zos should buff it, it would be a shame to leave it in such poor state.

Turelus

ADarklore wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Considering the entire design of the Warden as stated by ZOS was for 'group utility' I'm surprised people are surprised how poorly it performs at DPS.

Exactly, you can't play a Warden like you play other classes. Wardens are about DoT's and tactics to take advantage of that. While Wardens are intended to be a Group Support and Utility Class, it can solo most PvE content just fine, as long as one realizes it is not a DPS machine.

Where you can take the most advantage of the Warden is with sustaining your health and magic while you meter out damage. But don't expect to be DPSing Vet Trials with it.

There is the problem. Almost no one wants "group utility" in trials, they want (and need) DPS which the Warden can't achieve so they get benched and people don't get to play their characters in content they want to play.

Yes there is the argument of getting groups together which do allow it, but I personally don't feel we should have a class that isn't allowed to compete at the highest level because it was designed for a role which isn't required.

I fully agree... ZOS should not be creating 'specialized' classes that cannot perform on equal footing with other classes. They need to release classes that are able to be DPS first and foremost and utility secondary. The overwhelming majority of players want to DPS, trying to force players to play only utility is not what people want or will be happy with... especially coming from a game that is so solo-centric.

I personally have had issues with the Warden's skills since its announcement.
I don't like that we have a tree for each style of gameplay rather than a mixed up list like other classes. Why couldn't I be a frost DPS mage? Why don't I have nature tanking? Why can't my pets heal (okay, we know why because of sorc).

The jack of all trades master of none classes always sound great in concept, until you realise most games require you to min/max at end game and you need to be a master of something to be viable.

So either the Wardens utility has to be so good every trial needs a Warden* or they need to be able to perform the roles other classes can to an acceptable degree.
In theory the Warden can complete veteran content as they can hit 25-30k DPS (which is the basic needed) but they're never going to be a serious contender when other classes are throwing out 40k+

* this then assumes the Warden players want to be utility and not just a DPS.

Vimora

Funny how you mention Solar Flare, which is a skill that has basically no place on the bar.

Wreuntzylla

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Another topic about how underwhelming mag warden is? Huzzah.

From my understanding it's only for PvE DPS though right?

That's what I gathered. I don't do mag warden DPS. My mag warden is for healing. So many trees.

Yes, mag warden is strong in PvP, potential burst rivals a mag sorc.

Nestor

Turelus wrote: »

There is the problem. Almost no one wants "group utility" in trials, they want (and need) DPS which the Warden can't achieve so they get benched and people don't get to play their characters in content they want to play.

Yes there is the argument of getting groups together which do allow it, but I personally don't feel we should have a class that isn't allowed to compete at the highest level because it was designed for a role which isn't required.

Doing everything for Trials sake is like designing all cars to run the Indy 500. Sure, its a goal, but are you going to end up with a car most people will have fun with? There are what, 6 Trials in the game? I have run Vet 4 Player Dungeons with existing Wardens and they do just fine.

I am kind of getting tired with Trials being the Litmous test as to being what is viable for the entire game. The other 99% of the content the Warden does just fine.

If ZOS spit out just another max DPS Class, then it would be more like the existing Classes and then what is the point of rolling a new character in a new class if it plays the same as every other class out there?

I am pretty sure ZOS will be adding new Classes to the game. Do we really need just a different flavor of the same classes we have now?

Turelus

Nestor wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

There is the problem. Almost no one wants "group utility" in trials, they want (and need) DPS which the Warden can't achieve so they get benched and people don't get to play their characters in content they want to play.

Yes there is the argument of getting groups together which do allow it, but I personally don't feel we should have a class that isn't allowed to compete at the highest level because it was designed for a role which isn't required.

Doing everything for Trials sake is like designing all cars to run the Indy 500. Sure, its a goal, but are you going to end up with a car most people will have fun with? There are what, 6 Trials in the game? I have run Vet 4 Player Dungeons with existing Wardens and they do just fine.

I am kind of getting tired with Trials being the Litmous test as to being what is viable for the entire game. The other 99% of the content the Warden does just fine.

If ZOS spit out just another max DPS Class, then it would be more like the existing Classes and then what is the point of rolling a new character in a new class if it plays the same as every other class out there?

I am pretty sure ZOS will be adding new Classes to the game. Do we really need just a different flavor of the same classes we have now?

People want to do all the game has to offer with their characters though. It's great that it can do everything else in the game, but why shouldn't it also be able to take part in end game PvE at a competitive level?
Imagine being one of those players who picked up Morrowind, chose the cool new Warden then after playing for a few months finding their character isn't good enough to do vHoF as a DD role.
Should those players just accept their class can't do the thing they want and either make a new one or never play the content?

It doesn't have to play the same and it doesn't currently, the skills and rotations are far different from others, it just needs some love to get better numbers in the DD role.

Lexxypwns

Mag warden has more burst than any of the classes you listed. Bug+Bird alone can kill squishies, a 14 cliff racer tooltip is reasonable

Vimora

I'd like to see a class that requires and entirely different playstyle. In LOTRO, we have classes that do relatively little dps, but more than make up for it by way of potentially doubling the entire group's dps output via buffs and debuffs.

But this is not what I would like for ESO. Here I would like a class that is very weak when played solo, but it becomes exremely powerful in groups. It would be like an evil vampire/necromancer type class that applies various ailments and maladies to group members weakening them in different ways, while empowering himself to become a devastating killing machine. This would serve 2 purposes:

1. Provide a class that makes landscape questing challenging again.
2. Require a new way of stategic thinking in dungeons and trials.

Iselin

They're one execute skill away from being whelming.

Nestor

Turelus wrote: »

People want to do all the game has to offer with their characters though.

Imagine being one of those players who picked up Morrowind, chose the cool new Warden then after playing for a few months finding their character isn't good enough to do vHoF as a DD role.

Do the same thing I did with my Stamina NB, which was roll a Mag Sorc.

I also think your overestimating the appeal of trials. Yes, some people like them and enjoy them. But most? Nah.

Can the Warden be improved? Sure, any class can be improved. But to make a Warden a Trials wrecking machine will basically kill off every class in PvP, as Wardens already do pretty good over there. Unless they overhaul the entire class and then it will end up just being a Pet Sorcerer with a different name on the character header.

LadyNalcarya

Vimora wrote: »

I'd like to see a class that requires and entirely different playstyle. In LOTRO, we have classes that do relatively little dps, but more than make up for it by way of potentially doubling the entire group's dps output via buffs and debuffs.

But this is not what I would like for ESO. Here I would like a class that is very weak when played solo, but it becomes exremely powerful in groups. It would be like an evil vampire/necromancer type class that applies various ailments and maladies to group members weakening them in different ways, while empowering himself to become a devastating killing machine. This would serve 2 purposes:

1. Provide a class that makes landscape questing challenging again.
2. Require a new way of stategic thinking in dungeons and trials.

This is not going to work in ESO pve, I was questing on my crafter that doesnt have much skill points or active skills, and on top of that I was wearing cp70 armor (because it used to be a vr7 char before vet rank removal). I still didnt have any problems or challenge whatsoever. I'm pretty sure that quests can be done by spamming light and heavy attacks, and if you throw some skills to the mix, you'll melt everything.
Even if all necromancer abilities would be absolutely useless in solo, they would still be able to use ele wall+shock heavy attacks+harness magicka for defense... That's more than enough.
That would also cause issues for new players, because that would mean that if they would start as a necromancer main, they wont be able to do vMA.

Turelus

Nestor wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

People want to do all the game has to offer with their characters though.

Imagine being one of those players who picked up Morrowind, chose the cool new Warden then after playing for a few months finding their character isn't good enough to do vHoF as a DD role.

Do the same thing I did with my Stamina NB, which was roll a Mag Sorc.

I also think your overestimating the appeal of trials. Yes, some people like them and enjoy them. But most? Nah.

Can the Warden be improved? Sure, any class can be improved. But to make a Warden a Trials wrecking machine will basically kill off every class in PvP, as Wardens already do pretty good over there. Unless they overhaul the entire class and then it will end up just being a Pet Sorcerer with a different name on the character header.

I like to give Wrobel a challenge.
Bring it's DPS up in a way which doesn't break them in PvP.

Vimora

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Vimora wrote: »

I'd like to see a class that requires and entirely different playstyle. In LOTRO, we have classes that do relatively little dps, but more than make up for it by way of potentially doubling the entire group's dps output via buffs and debuffs.

But this is not what I would like for ESO. Here I would like a class that is very weak when played solo, but it becomes exremely powerful in groups. It would be like an evil vampire/necromancer type class that applies various ailments and maladies to group members weakening them in different ways, while empowering himself to become a devastating killing machine. This would serve 2 purposes:

1. Provide a class that makes landscape questing challenging again.
2. Require a new way of stategic thinking in dungeons and trials.

This is not going to work in ESO pve, I was questing on my crafter that doesnt have much skill points or active skills, and on top of that I was wearing cp70 armor (because it used to be a vr7 char before vet rank removal). I still didnt have any problems or challenge whatsoever. I'm pretty sure that quests can be done by spamming light and heavy attacks, and if you throw some skills to the mix, you'll melt everything.
Even if all necromancer abilities would be absolutely useless in solo, they would still be able to use ele wall+shock heavy attacks+harness magicka for defense... That's more than enough.
That would also cause issues for new players, because that would mean that if they would start as a necromancer main, they wont be able to do vMA.

This could be a good thing as it provides a way out. If I roll this class because I want a challenge on landscape, then I will obviously not ruin in by using op weapon skills. If someone rolls the class because they want the group aspects, they can level up fairly quickly using powerful weapon skills. Win-win.

it's a rewarding experience for skilled players who will make the most of it, while it also makes cannon fodder players in groups somewhat less useless.

LadyNalcarya

Turelus wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

People want to do all the game has to offer with their characters though.

Imagine being one of those players who picked up Morrowind, chose the cool new Warden then after playing for a few months finding their character isn't good enough to do vHoF as a DD role.

Do the same thing I did with my Stamina NB, which was roll a Mag Sorc.

I also think your overestimating the appeal of trials. Yes, some people like them and enjoy them. But most? Nah.

Can the Warden be improved? Sure, any class can be improved. But to make a Warden a Trials wrecking machine will basically kill off every class in PvP, as Wardens already do pretty good over there. Unless they overhaul the entire class and then it will end up just being a Pet Sorcerer with a different name on the character header.

I like to give Wrobel a challenge.
Bring it's DPS up in a way which doesn't break them in PvP.

Turelus wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

People want to do all the game has to offer with their characters though.

Imagine being one of those players who picked up Morrowind, chose the cool new Warden then after playing for a few months finding their character isn't good enough to do vHoF as a DD role.

Do the same thing I did with my Stamina NB, which was roll a Mag Sorc.

I also think your overestimating the appeal of trials. Yes, some people like them and enjoy them. But most? Nah.

Can the Warden be improved? Sure, any class can be improved. But to make a Warden a Trials wrecking machine will basically kill off every class in PvP, as Wardens already do pretty good over there. Unless they overhaul the entire class and then it will end up just being a Pet Sorcerer with a different name on the character header.

I like to give Wrobel a challenge.
Bring it's DPS up in a way which doesn't break them in PvP.

Agreed.
Imo they just need to bring warden abilities in line with other class abilities in terms of animation speed and cast time. For example, if cliff racer would actually be an instant ability (and less telegraphed), they could make it dodgeable... Etc.
I think it was a stupid decision to build a class around fancy effects. Sure, some people might enjoy it, but it hurts class performance in many ways.
The only warden ability that is actually "OP" is forest ulti... Simply because its very powerful for its cost, and warden has easy access to major heroism. I would say ~125 ult cost would be fair (on par with templar healing ulti).