Dual Wield vs Two-Handed =|= [Are/Should] [they/be more] Similar or Different in Functionality?

Avran_Sylt

[/spoiler]
Here is what I mean by this (and by no means do I have extensive knowledge of these interactions/identities):
Looking at the Destruction Staff, we can see that Lightning,Fire, and Frost each have their own mildly unique identity.

Shock deals with AoE Damage (but with a status effect that boosts single target damage...)
Fire deals with Single Target Damage (with a thematic status effect that deals extra fire damage to a single target)
Frost deals with Movement Impairment and Self Preservation (with a thematic status effect that reduces outgoing enemy damage, I.E. slowed limbs)

Similarly, in the Melee Physical realm, we have their counterparts:

DW deals more in single target attacks (has the best AoE spammable?)
2H deals high-damage over a longer period of time, coupled with defensive abilities and passive cleave (has the best Single Target Execute?)
1H&S deals with Position Control and Shutting down opponents (projectile reflection, increased block, Major Defile)

In my opinion, I think that DW and 2H should function differently from one another, much like fire and lightning. I think that DW should focus on being single target damage, and 2H should focus on AoE damage. This is, of course, in a group scenarios. To start off, I would swap the general premise of the 2H reverse slash with the DW Whirlwind. Followed by more unique interactions with the Forceful passive and chosen weapon type.

However, my questions for you is:
Do you think that DW/2H are unique, or are they similar?
Do you think these differences (if any) should be further expanded upon or homogenized (interchangeable at any instance)?
Do you find the current setup of skills to be appropriate?
[/spoiler]

Nyghthowler

Another Opinion

WTF are you babbling about...?

Kanar

They are Different in Functionality

I like to use 2H in PvE and would like a slight buff to make it more competitive with dual wield, however that would be hard to do without increasing 2H PvP strength. In the end, I'd rather they not touch it cause A.) They will probably do stuff I don't like and B.) I'd rather they spend time on other stuff, like a whole new weapon line.

Avran_Sylt

Nyghthowler wrote: »

WTF are you babbling about...?

Check the spoiler tab, above the poll options. TL:DR Do you think that 2H DW should focus on differing aspects of combat (I.E. AoE vs ST Damage) or should they each have their respective ties with one another (I.E. DW having the best AoE to compensate for lackluster overall AoE Damage and 2H having the best Execute ability to compensate for lackluster ST Damage).

Gilliamtherogue

Two Handed and Dual Wield do have very stark differences. Two handers pose delayed but immense burst spikes of damage, and great cleave damage + pressure. Dual Wield boasts superior single target damage, and has the best AoE spammable, but the weakest prolonged AoE pressure. Bows boast more delayed single target spikes of damage, safety of range, and the strongest prolonged AoE + ST pressure. This ultimately leaves almost all Stamina builds defaulting to use a Bow as a backbar option, while chosing 2h or DW based on their desired role.

These ideas should be retained, and further emphasized. The nerf to Forceful with the Clockwork city patch has put a tremendous nerf onto 2h DPS potential at its current advantage over DW, which was cleave damage. This should be reverted, or buffed to help this identity remain.

The biggest issue of the skill line is lack of usable skills in PvE. Crit Rush and Rally both offer nothing impactful that Stamina builds need at the moment, and the DoT in the skill line is put on Carve, and is insanely weak. An easy solution is adding a similar mechanic of Blade Cloak, to Forward Momentum (leave Rally alone, it's already in a good spot in PvP and does not need a buff). Taking damage should give some form of mitigation (a shield, flat mitigation, something) to help build the whole Berserk play style.

That solves the survivability of 2h without making it even better in PvP (you'd finally want to choose between Rally or Momentum!). as well as a small portion of cleave DPS. The other portion that needs fixing, is Carve. I'll quote something I left in an older thread.

1. Cleave (the skill, not the phenomena of cleaving targets) is abysmal in terms of performance due to the fact that the Bleed refreshes upon cast, and also does very very low damage (as opposed to the Twin Blade and Blunt/Heavy Weapons passive or Twin Slashes). Allowing the Bleed to stack instead of Refresh (perhaps up to 3 times, and then after 3 stack it no longer refreshes- but further casts during this duration empower the initial hit of Cleave) would be an easy solution/fix.

-The empower would only be about 20% at Max Rank. This incentives the ability to multi cast Carve in large AoE situations where you have to anyways, without forcing the player to feel like the only way to use the ability is to spam cast it. In single target application you'd likely just apply Carve once every 8s, to get the ramping bleed damage, instead of treating Carve as a spammable for ST.

-Keep in mind this would only be in CLEAVE situations. This suggestion would bring the damage capability of Steel Tornado and Carve in line; but would be highly situational. Steel Tornado covers a 9m RADIUS, while Carve only covers a 7m x 8m(?) Conal. This means even if Carve's tooltip is higher, Steel Tornado still has bonus advantages of hitting more spread out targets. It would become a situational choice that played into special builds or roles; aka diversity. Also don't forget that Dual Wield has Ruffian, which is an additional 15% bonus!

-While I'd love to see each ability change based on what weapon was in use, if this were to happen we'd need a major overhaul to all weapon lines to follow suit. This is a MASSIVE undertaking and would require more balancing, which we're already struggling with in the Morrowind PTS. I think for now it would be wise to keep it the same skill based on weapon types used, and revisit the idea later.

2. Reworking Berserker Strike. This probably raises some red flags with people, as it is currently very popular in PvP as Onslaught with many toxic "One Shot" builds. Personally, a build that has little to no counter play aside from forcibly slotting Radiant Magelight (which even can't save you sometimes) or many other abilities, has no real place in a game from a balance aspect. Removing Berserker Strike and adding in the classic "Bladestorm" ability that many other RPG's have used would work wonders for both Two-Handed's viability, and Stamina's overall viability. Stamina currently has NO good AoE ultimates (Rend is EXTREMELY small, and often misses point blank or moving targets), and adding one to the weapon skill line that lacks any strong AoE would truly work wonders.

static_recharge

I Don't Care

Very confusing title with no poll description makes for a useless poll

idk

Nyghthowler wrote: »

WTF are you babbling about...?

True. The title not the poll are clear.

However, my guess is OP is suggesting some sort of change of something.

Each of the stamina weapons offers different flavor and style permitting different builds. It's advantageous to have choices like we have.

Avran_Sylt

removed the spoiler tag as it appears that many people did not see it.

STEVIL

They are Different in Functionality

they are different and they should be.

each has its place in different content for "optimal" and both are fine in all content.

ccfeeling

I Don't Care

Doesn't matter , zos wont care

danno8

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Two Handed and Dual Wield do have very stark differences. Two handers pose delayed but immense burst spikes of damage, and great cleave damage + pressure. Dual Wield boasts superior single target damage, and has the best AoE spammable, but the weakest prolonged AoE pressure. Bows boast more delayed single target spikes of damage, safety of range, and the strongest prolonged AoE + ST pressure. This ultimately leaves almost all Stamina builds defaulting to use a Bow as a backbar option, while chosing 2h or DW based on their desired role.

These ideas should be retained, and further emphasized. The nerf to Forceful with the Clockwork city patch has put a tremendous nerf onto 2h DPS potential at its current advantage over DW, which was cleave damage. This should be reverted, or buffed to help this identity remain.

The biggest issue of the skill line is lack of usable skills in PvE. Crit Rush and Rally both offer nothing impactful that Stamina builds need at the moment, and the DoT in the skill line is put on Carve, and is insanely weak. An easy solution is adding a similar mechanic of Blade Cloak, to Forward Momentum (leave Rally alone, it's already in a good spot in PvP and does not need a buff). Taking damage should give some form of mitigation (a shield, flat mitigation, something) to help build the whole Berserk play style.

That solves the survivability of 2h without making it even better in PvP (you'd finally want to choose between Rally or Momentum!). as well as a small portion of cleave DPS. The other portion that needs fixing, is Carve. I'll quote something I left in an older thread.

1. Cleave (the skill, not the phenomena of cleaving targets) is abysmal in terms of performance due to the fact that the Bleed refreshes upon cast, and also does very very low damage (as opposed to the Twin Blade and Blunt/Heavy Weapons passive or Twin Slashes). Allowing the Bleed to stack instead of Refresh (perhaps up to 3 times, and then after 3 stack it no longer refreshes- but further casts during this duration empower the initial hit of Cleave) would be an easy solution/fix.

-The empower would only be about 20% at Max Rank. This incentives the ability to multi cast Carve in large AoE situations where you have to anyways, without forcing the player to feel like the only way to use the ability is to spam cast it. In single target application you'd likely just apply Carve once every 8s, to get the ramping bleed damage, instead of treating Carve as a spammable for ST.

-Keep in mind this would only be in CLEAVE situations. This suggestion would bring the damage capability of Steel Tornado and Carve in line; but would be highly situational. Steel Tornado covers a 9m RADIUS, while Carve only covers a 7m x 8m(?) Conal. This means even if Carve's tooltip is higher, Steel Tornado still has bonus advantages of hitting more spread out targets. It would become a situational choice that played into special builds or roles; aka diversity. Also don't forget that Dual Wield has Ruffian, which is an additional 15% bonus!

-While I'd love to see each ability change based on what weapon was in use, if this were to happen we'd need a major overhaul to all weapon lines to follow suit. This is a MASSIVE undertaking and would require more balancing, which we're already struggling with in the Morrowind PTS. I think for now it would be wise to keep it the same skill based on weapon types used, and revisit the idea later.

2. Reworking Berserker Strike. This probably raises some red flags with people, as it is currently very popular in PvP as Onslaught with many toxic "One Shot" builds. Personally, a build that has little to no counter play aside from forcibly slotting Radiant Magelight (which even can't save you sometimes) or many other abilities, has no real place in a game from a balance aspect. Removing Berserker Strike and adding in the classic "Bladestorm" ability that many other RPG's have used would work wonders for both Two-Handed's viability, and Stamina's overall viability. Stamina currently has NO good AoE ultimates (Rend is EXTREMELY small, and often misses point blank or moving targets), and adding one to the weapon skill line that lacks any strong AoE would truly work wonders.

I like your ideas for the 2H.

I will say though that they will not revert the changes since the AoE portion of Light and Heavy attacks scale with crits on the main target already, but then also have a second chance to crit. This change on the PTS is in line with every other double dipping skill they have changed in recent memory, especially skills that heal for a % of the damage done. They were double dipping for quite a while.