a damage shield fix that ZOS wont read or consider

Barbaran

this will fall on def ears.
i play stam and magic, but mostly magic so i understand how (in my opinion) players calling for no damage shields against a light armour build is rediculas, however.

why not make shields unstackable to a degree.
do not allow shields to stack UNLESS the first shield is under 75% of original strength or there is 2 or less seconds left on the timer.

To balance the healing ward aspect of playing most LA magic builds:
-allow healing ward to always stack as normal BUT if stacked the 300% increase in strength is taken away for reducing damage but incorperated into the healing aspect (so at least magic builds in LA can still have a decent heal).
-if the ward is used as the only shield (unstacked) it works as it does right now.

even as a magic player i feel like sorcs have too much shields.
a 23+ K shield that also restores magic from hardend and harness is too much.
and no this isnt a nerf sorc thread, magsorc is one of my toons i play very often, but i understand shield stacking is over preforming

Minno

Barbaran wrote: »

this will fall on def ears.
i play stam and magic, but mostly magic so i understand how (in my opinion) players calling for no damage shields against a light armour build is rediculas, however.

why not make shields unstackable to a degree.
do not allow shields to stack UNLESS the first shield is under 75% of original strength or there is 2 or less seconds left on the timer.

To balance the healing ward aspect of playing most LA magic builds:
-allow healing ward to always stack as normal BUT if stacked the 300% increase in strength is taken away for reducing damage but incorperated into the healing aspect (so at least magic builds in LA can still have a decent heal).
-if the ward is used as the only shield (unstacked) it works as it does right now.

even as a magic player i feel like sorcs have too much shields.
a 23+ K shield that also restores magic from hardend and harness is too much.
and no this isnt a nerf sorc thread, magsorc is one of my toons i play very often, but i understand shield stacking is over preforming

That would effect other classes running shields. But the strategy is to put pressure to keep them casting it instead of offensive spells.

Take my video against a shield magden for example:
https://youtu.be/P3Tc8QFw_WQ

You can see my timing is terrible, but when the burst hits it's always around after his shields are close to being depleted/duration is about to end. Towards the end of the video, he made a mistake in firing off birds instead of casting a shield which allowed me to recast my burst and follow up with a cc I knew would stick. He was dead before he remembered to recast his shield.

Burst timing with cc is the counter to shield stacking.

IcyDeadPeople

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

Sandman929

They've already moved so much to a Major/Minor buff system, I don't see why they don't move shields into that realm.

Aedaryl

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Barbaran wrote: »

this will fall on def ears.
i play stam and magic, but mostly magic so i understand how (in my opinion) players calling for no damage shields against a light armour build is rediculas, however.

why not make shields unstackable to a degree.
do not allow shields to stack UNLESS the first shield is under 75% of original strength or there is 2 or less seconds left on the timer.

To balance the healing ward aspect of playing most LA magic builds:
-allow healing ward to always stack as normal BUT if stacked the 300% increase in strength is taken away for reducing damage but incorperated into the healing aspect (so at least magic builds in LA can still have a decent heal).
-if the ward is used as the only shield (unstacked) it works as it does right now.

even as a magic player i feel like sorcs have too much shields.
a 23+ K shield that also restores magic from hardend and harness is too much.
and no this isnt a nerf sorc thread, magsorc is one of my toons i play very often, but i understand shield stacking is over preforming

Stacking multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

Just no.

Problem is Hardened ward and Harness, just make them both don't stack.

Or cap shield size at 75% of max health.

IcyDeadPeople

Aedaryl wrote: »

Just no.

Problem is Hardened ward and Harness, just make them both don't stack.

Or cap shield size at 75% of max health.

Harness is quite small. Stacking multiple shields is not the problem. What provides tankiness for light armor users is simply the large size of hardened by itself or dampen magic by itself, when you have close to 50k max magicka.

And if you only nerf shields without addressing overall balance among the three armor types, it would result in heavy armor being a bit too strong compared to the other two.

Beardimus

Honestly you are trying to fix something that isn't really a problem these days.

Sorc can't sustain shield stacking, really, now for that long. And of they can they aren't putting out much damage.

Hardly any Sorcs run a triple stack now, it's just too costly. And most only dual stack as we need that healing ward heal as class heal has its issues in combat.

Wards have plenty of counters too, people just need to adapt / react rather than want to Nerf stuff. I appreciate you are finding the middle ground but I don't think it's needed

Sandman929

A 50k magicka pool with a Major/Minor Shield (25%Max Mag/15%Max Mag) would result in a 10k shield (in PvP) with both buffs active. Extend duration to 15 seconds (or until reduced to zero by incoming damage) and bring cost inline with skills that apply Major Resolve/Major Ward. First shield on is Major, second shield on is Minor (and reduced cost further because of that).
Shield applying skills could have unique added buffs/debuffs, and there could be some skills/sets/conditions that apply an increase to the percentage of the Major/Minor Shields offering choices to be made in builds and bars.

Barbaran

Beardimus wrote: »

Honestly you are trying to fix something that isn't really a problem these days.

Sorc can't sustain shield stacking, really, now for that long. And of they can they aren't putting out much damage.

Hardly any Sorcs run a triple stack now, it's just too costly. And most only dual stack as we need that healing ward heal as class heal has its issues in combat.

Wards have plenty of counters too, people just need to adapt / react rather than want to Nerf stuff. I appreciate you are finding the middle ground but I don't think it's needed

i humbally disagree.
i mained a mag sorc for the past 8 months or so.
now im using a few other builds for some variety.
on my sorc i can stack hardend and harness with no issues. pop a potion get rhat lich proc, and the reduce cost/ regen from light armour its not a problem.

or if i use my amber plasm setup you streak and hit a dark deal or 2 with a pot and you can continue stacking with no issue.
my harness is about 15K with the 33% increase amd my harness is about 8K. that is a large shield.
i can have 4-5 guys on me without too much issue. a few streaks, a quick stack and offencive.

i might also point out that its not too costly if your fighting at least 1 magic build, harness is basically free if you are with the return it gives. hardend is cheap

im not saying this as a stam player who is complaining about shields, i say this as a sorc.

Tormy

Just allow shields to be critically hit/10

bardx86

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

So you want a sorc to have to cast 2 shield to get a 10k shield that will mitigate 1 attack and use 2 GCD's? Dude! Shields are fine as its a pain in the ass to have to recast in a 3-4 sec window. I do agree with damage output of light and medium. Its just to low vs heavy. I hit for around 38k pve and that same skill hit for around 3k in PVP. its way underpowered currently.

IcyDeadPeople

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

So you want a sorc to have to cast 2 shield to get a 10k shield that will mitigate 1 attack and use 2 GCD's? Dude! Shields are fine as its a pain in the ass to have to recast in a 3-4 sec window. I do agree with damage output of light and medium. Its just to low vs heavy. I hit for around 38k pve and that same skill hit for around 3k in PVP. its way underpowered currently.

No, I would suggest a more modest reduction, for example imagine if using either of those big shield skills (Dampen Magic or Hardened Ward) maxed out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP at 50k max magicka, 7/7 light and max bastion. IMO that is still quite large enough for PVE and PVP.

If somebody wanted to give up two different ability slots for shields and spend the magicka to cast both of those at the same time, obviously the total shields would be double.

Stamicka

Shield stacking is the most counterable defense type and does not need any changing, I think it's perfect how it is.

bardx86

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

So you want a sorc to have to cast 2 shield to get a 10k shield that will mitigate 1 attack and use 2 GCD's? Dude! Shields are fine as its a pain in the ass to have to recast in a 3-4 sec window. I do agree with damage output of light and medium. Its just to low vs heavy. I hit for around 38k pve and that same skill hit for around 3k in PVP. its way underpowered currently.

No, I would suggest a more modest reduction, for example imagine if using either of those big shield skills (Dampen Magic or Hardened Ward) maxed out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP at 50k max magicka, 7/7 light and max bastion. IMO that is still quite large enough for PVE and PVP.

If somebody wanted to give up two different ability slots for shields and spend the magicka to cast both of those at the same time, obviously the total shields would be double.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

So you want a sorc to have to cast 2 shield to get a 10k shield that will mitigate 1 attack and use 2 GCD's? Dude! Shields are fine as its a pain in the ass to have to recast in a 3-4 sec window. I do agree with damage output of light and medium. Its just to low vs heavy. I hit for around 38k pve and that same skill hit for around 3k in PVP. its way underpowered currently.

No, I would suggest a more modest reduction, for example imagine if using either of those big shield skills (Dampen Magic or Hardened Ward) maxed out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP at 50k max magicka, 7/7 light and max bastion. IMO that is still quite large enough for PVE and PVP.

If somebody wanted to give up two different ability slots for shields and spend the magicka to cast both of those at the same time, obviously the total shields would be double.

A 10 k shield? Do you even PVP? Sorcs damage blows in the current meta. 1 million stuns as well. I completely disagree if anything they need a buff. Damage mitigation for other classes is far superior and most of it is passive.

WuffyCerulei

Perhaps a damage shield cap at like 15k er something for pvp, possibly excluding healing ward, but that only goes high when your health is really low. I dunno, but making shields of any kind unstackable in general, like what people seem to want, would screw up PVE. Bad. Multiple-person shields like Magma Shell, Igneous Shield, and Barrier are often used in groups for whatever reasons. Those on top of magicka shields absorb a lot of damage, and if you pve enough, you'll know that a lot of bosses can hammer out serious damage.

bardx86

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Perhaps a damage shield cap at like 15k er something for pvp, possibly excluding healing ward, but that only goes high when your health is really low. I dunno, but making shields of any kind unstackable in general, like what people seem to want, would screw up PVE. Bad. Multiple-person shields like Magma Shell, Igneous Shield, and Barrier are often used in groups for whatever reasons. Those on top of magicka shields absorb a lot of damage, and if you pve enough, you'll know that a lot of bosses can hammer out serious damage.

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Perhaps a damage shield cap at like 15k er something for pvp, possibly excluding healing ward, but that only goes high when your health is really low. I dunno, but making shields of any kind unstackable in general, like what people seem to want, would screw up PVE. Bad. Multiple-person shields like Magma Shell, Igneous Shield, and Barrier are often used in groups for whatever reasons. Those on top of magicka shields absorb a lot of damage, and if you pve enough, you'll know that a lot of bosses can hammer out serious damage.

Sure then cap damage against sorcs. I fail to see how a 4-6 shield of any size is a problem. Hell it could be 100,000k shield. one good CC and the sorc is dead. Count 1-2-3 CC then damage. its not that hard.

Derra

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

To make them absolutely unusable if you don´t run a build that´s sporting 50k maxmag and those two shields?
Just as a reference - there are abilities that can hit for ~12k on shields - meaning a build only sporting one shield even with around 45k magica will always get dmged by those.

I´m also fairly certain any sorc not running harness + hardened will sooner or later run out of magica if they fight a competent opponent. Shields aren´t cheap.

Just making hardened + harness/dampen undstackable would resolve any issue shields currently pose.
Against someone only using hardened + healing or dampen + healing you generally should not die if you´re able to counterpressure properly. If you can´t it´s either your build or you´re being outplayed.

Biro123

I think I'd prefer the 2 shields to work in different ways to each other - as opposed to both simply being huge damage sponges, and both being countered by the same mechanism. Ideas I suggested a while back have included:

Keep harness to work as is, but make hardened a 'shield over time' ie. give it a decent duration but it gives relatively small shield 'ticks' every second - that only last a second. So one help with burst, the other with sustained. Neither fully deals with them all - meaning sorc has to build in some more resists.

or

Have shields not stop the crit component of the damage - let crits go right through, making impen more necessary... Or perhaps have harness not stop the crit component, but hardened only stops the crit part but not the base dmg? Allow blocking reduce damage before it gets to the shield - to make it more useful (and necessary) to combine shields with other kinds of defence.

or
make hardened so it IS reduced by resistances and can be crit, and can be protected by blocking. Obviously its size would need to be balanced - but it would make it more effective if the sorc is wearing defensive gear, less so if he isn't.

or
Make twilight matriarch indestructible - like the warden's betty. This way sorcs have a viable way to build with destro/snb, without shields while having a reliable heal. Some other nerf required to balance though.. Perhaps reduce (or remove) its damage component? And/or combine with some of the above shield ideas or Derra's non-stacking.

And get rid of shieldbreaker (for some of the above - can keep it for others)


Obviously all of these ideas would need their durations/sizes re-balancing. But Zos staff get paid for that - I don't :-p

ToRelax

Rework Annulment into something different that's useable by everyone. No more Hardened+Harness stacking and you can balance defensive class skills and light armor more independently.

Oh right, and rework Shieldbreaker.

Irylia

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

Aids so any build not stacking max mag would end up with a 6-7k ward in cp and even smaller in no cp. sorcs are the easiest thing to kill. If they are surviving it's because you haven't timed your burst to kill through ward, haven't timed your burst after ward expires, or you havent tried baiting them to go aggressive and forget wards.

Barbaran wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Honestly you are trying to fix something that isn't really a problem these days.

Sorc can't sustain shield stacking, really, now for that long. And of they can they aren't putting out much damage.

Hardly any Sorcs run a triple stack now, it's just too costly. And most only dual stack as we need that healing ward heal as class heal has its issues in combat.

Wards have plenty of counters too, people just need to adapt / react rather than want to Nerf stuff. I appreciate you are finding the middle ground but I don't think it's needed

i humbally disagree.
i mained a mag sorc for the past 8 months or so.
now im using a few other builds for some variety.
on my sorc i can stack hardend and harness with no issues. pop a potion get rhat lich proc, and the reduce cost/ regen from light armour its not a problem.

or if i use my amber plasm setup you streak and hit a dark deal or 2 with a pot and you can continue stacking with no issue.
my harness is about 15K with the 33% increase amd my harness is about 8K. that is a large shield.
i can have 4-5 guys on me without too much issue. a few streaks, a quick stack and offencive.

i might also point out that its not too costly if your fighting at least 1 magic build, harness is basically free if you are with the return it gives. hardend is cheap

im not saying this as a stam player who is complaining about shields, i say this as a sorc.

Even with lich when outnumbered you aren't sustaining indefinitely. Or amberplasm for that matter. Wards get pressured by 1 competent player just as a few more and they already have super small windows for going for a kill.

It's things like resto ult, pirate skel, bs, or a higher cp than the pugs hitting you that makes it feel like wards are all that.

Harness 4K
Hard 3k
Healing 3.6

A skill that requires 1-6 seconds of up time maintenance paired with all the other abilities you want to cast in that 1-6 second window.
skills whiff to shuffle or roll, get blocked or cleansed (curse). All while you take every bit of incoming damage and have to reset that same 1-6 second rotation

IcyDeadPeople

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

So you want a sorc to have to cast 2 shield to get a 10k shield that will mitigate 1 attack and use 2 GCD's? Dude! Shields are fine as its a pain in the ass to have to recast in a 3-4 sec window. I do agree with damage output of light and medium. Its just to low vs heavy. I hit for around 38k pve and that same skill hit for around 3k in PVP. its way underpowered currently.

No, I would suggest a more modest reduction, for example imagine if using either of those big shield skills (Dampen Magic or Hardened Ward) maxed out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP at 50k max magicka, 7/7 light and max bastion. IMO that is still quite large enough for PVE and PVP.

If somebody wanted to give up two different ability slots for shields and spend the magicka to cast both of those at the same time, obviously the total shields would be double.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

So you want a sorc to have to cast 2 shield to get a 10k shield that will mitigate 1 attack and use 2 GCD's? Dude! Shields are fine as its a pain in the ass to have to recast in a 3-4 sec window. I do agree with damage output of light and medium. Its just to low vs heavy. I hit for around 38k pve and that same skill hit for around 3k in PVP. its way underpowered currently.

No, I would suggest a more modest reduction, for example imagine if using either of those big shield skills (Dampen Magic or Hardened Ward) maxed out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP at 50k max magicka, 7/7 light and max bastion. IMO that is still quite large enough for PVE and PVP.

If somebody wanted to give up two different ability slots for shields and spend the magicka to cast both of those at the same time, obviously the total shields would be double.

A 10 k shield? Do you even PVP? Sorcs damage blows in the current meta. 1 million stuns as well. I completely disagree if anything they need a buff. Damage mitigation for other classes is far superior and most of it is passive.

In that scenario, if you want shields larger than 10k, then then you would need to sacrifice ability slot and spend magicka to cast multiple shields.

This is not about sorcs, but about balancing the three armor types. Any light armor build can get a very large shield with 50k max magicka and dampen magic. When you have 50k max magicka you are not sacrificing your damage output for tankiness.

Currently, it's not very hard to get to a place where you are pretty tanky and have high damage ouput at the same time with heavy and light. Medium is significantly more challenging.

IMHO the best solution would not be to make medium armor more tanky, but instead to put both medium and light on a higher damage tier compared to heavy and slightly reduce tankiness of light armor.

Biro123

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

So you want a sorc to have to cast 2 shield to get a 10k shield that will mitigate 1 attack and use 2 GCD's? Dude! Shields are fine as its a pain in the ass to have to recast in a 3-4 sec window. I do agree with damage output of light and medium. Its just to low vs heavy. I hit for around 38k pve and that same skill hit for around 3k in PVP. its way underpowered currently.

No, I would suggest a more modest reduction, for example imagine if using either of those big shield skills (Dampen Magic or Hardened Ward) maxed out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP at 50k max magicka, 7/7 light and max bastion. IMO that is still quite large enough for PVE and PVP.

If somebody wanted to give up two different ability slots for shields and spend the magicka to cast both of those at the same time, obviously the total shields would be double.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

So you want a sorc to have to cast 2 shield to get a 10k shield that will mitigate 1 attack and use 2 GCD's? Dude! Shields are fine as its a pain in the ass to have to recast in a 3-4 sec window. I do agree with damage output of light and medium. Its just to low vs heavy. I hit for around 38k pve and that same skill hit for around 3k in PVP. its way underpowered currently.

No, I would suggest a more modest reduction, for example imagine if using either of those big shield skills (Dampen Magic or Hardened Ward) maxed out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP at 50k max magicka, 7/7 light and max bastion. IMO that is still quite large enough for PVE and PVP.

If somebody wanted to give up two different ability slots for shields and spend the magicka to cast both of those at the same time, obviously the total shields would be double.

A 10 k shield? Do you even PVP? Sorcs damage blows in the current meta. 1 million stuns as well. I completely disagree if anything they need a buff. Damage mitigation for other classes is far superior and most of it is passive.

In that scenario, if you want shields larger than 10k, then then you would need to sacrifice ability slot and spend magicka to cast multiple shields.

This is not about sorcs, but about balancing the three armor types. Any light armor build can get a very large shield with 50k max magicka and dampen magic. When you have 50k max magicka you are not sacrificing your damage output for tankiness.

Currently, it's not very hard to get to a place where you are pretty tanky and have high damage ouput at the same time with heavy and light. Medium is significantly more challenging.

IMHO the best solution would not be to make medium armor more tanky, but instead to put both medium and light on a higher damage tier compared to heavy and slightly reduce tankiness of light armor.

The problem with this view, is that the current large shields come from making sacrifices to other areas of survivability/sustain.
Magica that high is achieved by not using impen(and so relying totally on big shields), by having lower recov despite wearing light for the sustain passives (workable based on the idea of not having to re-shield so often), and by sacrificing slots (eg. for inner light)

If shield-strength was lowered, then you wouldn't simply be making shields weaker, you would make 50k mag sorc builds (and I say sorc here due to lack of heals) unviable. Because as soon as they cannot rely on shield being enough - the builds then, instead need impen, more sustain, more defensive stats and more (non-shield)defensive abilities (ie. dropping inner light) - all of which lowers max mag significantly, . That 50k build suddenly became a 40k build. And that 10k shield suddenly became an 7-8k shield. And when the base shield-strength lowers, the benefit from bastion also lowers and becomes less worthwhile, you spend your points elsewhere and that 7-8k shield becomes 6-7k.

There is a point (and I'm not sure where it is) in terms of shield-strength where shield-per-second gets beaten by damage-per-second. As soon as that point is reached, shields become absolutely useless - because you can then spend all fight just shielding without dealing a single attack - and still lose. (yes I'm not counting dodges, but i'm also not counting getting CC'd. such things become too difficult to measure).
Not to mention what would happen if another attacker turned up. Shields are already very weak in that instance.

the only use for them would be kind of like a buff before the fight starts (and yes you would want to stack) - and a re-buff if you manage to los for s second or 2.. but you would effectively lose ALL defence while under pressure and be unable to maintain it.
It would be different if they worked like heals in that blocking/resists etc. reduced dmg done to them so you could cast a shield, and by usual defences (block/resists etc) 'protect' the shield, so that the smaller shield can survive a higher dps due to you using other active defences - but in that case - it would work so similar to healing - you may as well just turn it into a heal instead.

No weakening them is not the answer - the mechanic needs to change. And if the aim is to make them weaker vs a single attacker - then they need to be made stronger vs multiple attackers to compensate.

ak_pvp

Beardimus wrote: »

Honestly you are trying to fix something that isn't really a problem these days.

Sorc can't sustain shield stacking, really, now for that long. And of they can they aren't putting out much damage.

Hardly any Sorcs run a triple stack now, it's just too costly. And most only dual stack as we need that healing ward heal as class heal has its issues in combat.

Wards have plenty of counters too, people just need to adapt / react rather than want to Nerf stuff. I appreciate you are finding the middle ground but I don't think it's needed

Untrue, against any magicka damage, a sorc can easily permanently sustain shields. And a sorc still has 2ish sec to pop the frag proc, (procs from shields) or mines that will damage whilst shields are up.

montiferus

They should make shields succeptable to minor and major defile. Problem solved.

IcyDeadPeople

Biro123 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

So you want a sorc to have to cast 2 shield to get a 10k shield that will mitigate 1 attack and use 2 GCD's? Dude! Shields are fine as its a pain in the ass to have to recast in a 3-4 sec window. I do agree with damage output of light and medium. Its just to low vs heavy. I hit for around 38k pve and that same skill hit for around 3k in PVP. its way underpowered currently.

No, I would suggest a more modest reduction, for example imagine if using either of those big shield skills (Dampen Magic or Hardened Ward) maxed out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP at 50k max magicka, 7/7 light and max bastion. IMO that is still quite large enough for PVE and PVP.

If somebody wanted to give up two different ability slots for shields and spend the magicka to cast both of those at the same time, obviously the total shields would be double.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

So you want a sorc to have to cast 2 shield to get a 10k shield that will mitigate 1 attack and use 2 GCD's? Dude! Shields are fine as its a pain in the ass to have to recast in a 3-4 sec window. I do agree with damage output of light and medium. Its just to low vs heavy. I hit for around 38k pve and that same skill hit for around 3k in PVP. its way underpowered currently.

No, I would suggest a more modest reduction, for example imagine if using either of those big shield skills (Dampen Magic or Hardened Ward) maxed out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP at 50k max magicka, 7/7 light and max bastion. IMO that is still quite large enough for PVE and PVP.

If somebody wanted to give up two different ability slots for shields and spend the magicka to cast both of those at the same time, obviously the total shields would be double.

A 10 k shield? Do you even PVP? Sorcs damage blows in the current meta. 1 million stuns as well. I completely disagree if anything they need a buff. Damage mitigation for other classes is far superior and most of it is passive.

In that scenario, if you want shields larger than 10k, then then you would need to sacrifice ability slot and spend magicka to cast multiple shields.

This is not about sorcs, but about balancing the three armor types. Any light armor build can get a very large shield with 50k max magicka and dampen magic. When you have 50k max magicka you are not sacrificing your damage output for tankiness.

Currently, it's not very hard to get to a place where you are pretty tanky and have high damage ouput at the same time with heavy and light. Medium is significantly more challenging.

IMHO the best solution would not be to make medium armor more tanky, but instead to put both medium and light on a higher damage tier compared to heavy and slightly reduce tankiness of light armor.

The problem with this view, is that the current large shields come from making sacrifices to other areas of survivability/sustain.
Magica that high is achieved by not using impen(and so relying totally on big shields), by having lower recov despite wearing light for the sustain passives (workable based on the idea of not having to re-shield so often), and by sacrificing slots (eg. for inner light)

If shield-strength was lowered, then you wouldn't simply be making shields weaker, you would make 50k mag sorc builds (and I say sorc here due to lack of heals) unviable. Because as soon as they cannot rely on shield being enough - the builds then, instead need impen, more sustain, more defensive stats and more (non-shield)defensive abilities (ie. dropping inner light) - all of which lowers max mag significantly, . That 50k build suddenly became a 40k build. And that 10k shield suddenly became an 7-8k shield. And when the base shield-strength lowers, the benefit from bastion also lowers and becomes less worthwhile, you spend your points elsewhere and that 7-8k shield becomes 6-7k.

There is a point (and I'm not sure where it is) in terms of shield-strength where shield-per-second gets beaten by damage-per-second. As soon as that point is reached, shields become absolutely useless - because you can then spend all fight just shielding without dealing a single attack - and still lose. (yes I'm not counting dodges, but i'm also not counting getting CC'd. such things become too difficult to measure).
Not to mention what would happen if another attacker turned up. Shields are already very weak in that instance.

the only use for them would be kind of like a buff before the fight starts (and yes you would want to stack) - and a re-buff if you manage to los for s second or 2.. but you would effectively lose ALL defence while under pressure and be unable to maintain it.
It would be different if they worked like heals in that blocking/resists etc. reduced dmg done to them so you could cast a shield, and by usual defences (block/resists etc) 'protect' the shield, so that the smaller shield can survive a higher dps due to you using other active defences - but in that case - it would work so similar to healing - you may as well just turn it into a heal instead.

No weakening them is not the answer - the mechanic needs to change. And if the aim is to make them weaker vs a single attacker - then they need to be made stronger vs multiple attackers to compensate.

That's sort of the point. Combine slight reduction of Dampen and Hardened shield size with adding the spell damage passive to light, phys penetration passive to medium, additional scaling for 7/7 of each armor type, and require full 5 piece to use the armor ability. End result will put both medium and light on a higher damage tier than heavy.

There will be room on the spectrum for extremely tanky builds that don't do much damage, extremely high damage but squishy builds and then everybody else in between.

Biro123

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

So you want a sorc to have to cast 2 shield to get a 10k shield that will mitigate 1 attack and use 2 GCD's? Dude! Shields are fine as its a pain in the ass to have to recast in a 3-4 sec window. I do agree with damage output of light and medium. Its just to low vs heavy. I hit for around 38k pve and that same skill hit for around 3k in PVP. its way underpowered currently.

No, I would suggest a more modest reduction, for example imagine if using either of those big shield skills (Dampen Magic or Hardened Ward) maxed out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP at 50k max magicka, 7/7 light and max bastion. IMO that is still quite large enough for PVE and PVP.

If somebody wanted to give up two different ability slots for shields and spend the magicka to cast both of those at the same time, obviously the total shields would be double.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

So you want a sorc to have to cast 2 shield to get a 10k shield that will mitigate 1 attack and use 2 GCD's? Dude! Shields are fine as its a pain in the ass to have to recast in a 3-4 sec window. I do agree with damage output of light and medium. Its just to low vs heavy. I hit for around 38k pve and that same skill hit for around 3k in PVP. its way underpowered currently.

No, I would suggest a more modest reduction, for example imagine if using either of those big shield skills (Dampen Magic or Hardened Ward) maxed out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP at 50k max magicka, 7/7 light and max bastion. IMO that is still quite large enough for PVE and PVP.

If somebody wanted to give up two different ability slots for shields and spend the magicka to cast both of those at the same time, obviously the total shields would be double.

A 10 k shield? Do you even PVP? Sorcs damage blows in the current meta. 1 million stuns as well. I completely disagree if anything they need a buff. Damage mitigation for other classes is far superior and most of it is passive.

In that scenario, if you want shields larger than 10k, then then you would need to sacrifice ability slot and spend magicka to cast multiple shields.

This is not about sorcs, but about balancing the three armor types. Any light armor build can get a very large shield with 50k max magicka and dampen magic. When you have 50k max magicka you are not sacrificing your damage output for tankiness.

Currently, it's not very hard to get to a place where you are pretty tanky and have high damage ouput at the same time with heavy and light. Medium is significantly more challenging.

IMHO the best solution would not be to make medium armor more tanky, but instead to put both medium and light on a higher damage tier compared to heavy and slightly reduce tankiness of light armor.

The problem with this view, is that the current large shields come from making sacrifices to other areas of survivability/sustain.
Magica that high is achieved by not using impen(and so relying totally on big shields), by having lower recov despite wearing light for the sustain passives (workable based on the idea of not having to re-shield so often), and by sacrificing slots (eg. for inner light)

If shield-strength was lowered, then you wouldn't simply be making shields weaker, you would make 50k mag sorc builds (and I say sorc here due to lack of heals) unviable. Because as soon as they cannot rely on shield being enough - the builds then, instead need impen, more sustain, more defensive stats and more (non-shield)defensive abilities (ie. dropping inner light) - all of which lowers max mag significantly, . That 50k build suddenly became a 40k build. And that 10k shield suddenly became an 7-8k shield. And when the base shield-strength lowers, the benefit from bastion also lowers and becomes less worthwhile, you spend your points elsewhere and that 7-8k shield becomes 6-7k.

There is a point (and I'm not sure where it is) in terms of shield-strength where shield-per-second gets beaten by damage-per-second. As soon as that point is reached, shields become absolutely useless - because you can then spend all fight just shielding without dealing a single attack - and still lose. (yes I'm not counting dodges, but i'm also not counting getting CC'd. such things become too difficult to measure).
Not to mention what would happen if another attacker turned up. Shields are already very weak in that instance.

the only use for them would be kind of like a buff before the fight starts (and yes you would want to stack) - and a re-buff if you manage to los for s second or 2.. but you would effectively lose ALL defence while under pressure and be unable to maintain it.
It would be different if they worked like heals in that blocking/resists etc. reduced dmg done to them so you could cast a shield, and by usual defences (block/resists etc) 'protect' the shield, so that the smaller shield can survive a higher dps due to you using other active defences - but in that case - it would work so similar to healing - you may as well just turn it into a heal instead.

No weakening them is not the answer - the mechanic needs to change. And if the aim is to make them weaker vs a single attacker - then they need to be made stronger vs multiple attackers to compensate.

That's sort of the point. Combine slight reduction of Dampen and Hardened shield size with adding the spell damage passive to light, phys penetration passive to medium, additional scaling for 7/7 of each armor type, and require full 5 piece to use the armor ability. End result will put both medium and light on a higher damage tier than heavy.

There will be room on the spectrum for extremely tanky builds that don't do much damage, extremely high damage but squishy builds and then everybody else in between.

I'm not sure you caught the point I was getting at - in that there is a VERY fine line that makes shields useless based on sps(shieldpersecond) vs dps. If that gets crossed, then what looks like a slight reduction can instead make them useless. The only real way to make light-armour have less survivability is to change how they work. Whether they change to only absorb part of the damage, or only abilities, not light/heavys (or other way round) or let crit dmg through.. but have it so that shields stay up for longer... that way you get more time to cast damaging spells, spend less time casting shields - but shields aren't a 100% protection anymore.

Drummerx04

Minno wrote: »

Barbaran wrote: »

this will fall on def ears.
i play stam and magic, but mostly magic so i understand how (in my opinion) players calling for no damage shields against a light armour build is rediculas, however.

why not make shields unstackable to a degree.
do not allow shields to stack UNLESS the first shield is under 75% of original strength or there is 2 or less seconds left on the timer.

To balance the healing ward aspect of playing most LA magic builds:
-allow healing ward to always stack as normal BUT if stacked the 300% increase in strength is taken away for reducing damage but incorperated into the healing aspect (so at least magic builds in LA can still have a decent heal).
-if the ward is used as the only shield (unstacked) it works as it does right now.

even as a magic player i feel like sorcs have too much shields.
a 23+ K shield that also restores magic from hardend and harness is too much.
and no this isnt a nerf sorc thread, magsorc is one of my toons i play very often, but i understand shield stacking is over preforming

That would effect other classes running shields. But the strategy is to put pressure to keep them casting it instead of offensive spells.

Take my video against a shield magden for example:
https://youtu.be/P3Tc8QFw_WQ

You can see my timing is terrible, but when the burst hits it's always around after his shields are close to being depleted/duration is about to end. Towards the end of the video, he made a mistake in firing off birds instead of casting a shield which allowed me to recast my burst and follow up with a cc I knew would stick. He was dead before he remembered to recast his shield.

Burst timing with cc is the counter to shield stacking.

Exactly what I've been saying for probably months now. Sustained pressure = very bad time for sorcs and doubly so if snared... aka fighting a templar and especially a stamplar. Potl burst with selenes/skoria burst while permanently snared and no mag return on harness while under heavy pressure from jabs and curse getting periodically purged off. Time a dawnbreaker with potl and GG enjoy your damage.

Impossible to overcome on sorc? No, but head to head you are at a clear disadvantage.

I mean hell, when fighting another sorc, I can force them to reshield early with just a LA->crushing->frag weave.

I guess people just get discouraged because the sorc's health doesn't move much in 20 seconds, but it sure will as the battle progresses.

Barbaran

Irylia wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Simply being able to use multiple shields is not a problem at all. Stack two different small shields in the range of 3-4k in PVP and you end up with relatively small shield that is extremely expensive.

The reason people complain about "shield stacking" is not the stacking, but because of two large shields in this game which scale on offensive stat pool (Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward). Because they scale on max magicka, just using either one of these you can be both tanky and high damage output at the same time when you have 45 - 50k max magicka.

Right now with heavy armor and light armor it's not hard to get to a place where you have both high damage output and rather high tankiness. Medium armor is a bit more challenging. The best solution, however, is not to increase tankiness of medium, but to raise Medium and Light up to a higher tier of damage compared to Heavy, and slight reduction to the tankiness of light armor (which is derived from shields).

I would suggest the following adjustments:

• Reduce base size of Dampen Magic and Hardened Ward a bit to where they max out around 18-20k PVE / 9-10k PVP (at 50k max magicka, 7 light and max bastion).
• Add physical penetration passive to Medium
• Add spell damage passive to Light
• Adjust all armor passives to scale higher with 7 pieces of that armor type
• Require equipping at least 5 pieces to use active armor ability (Shuffle, Dampen/Harness, Immovable)

The end result would be that heavy armor ends up on a lower tier of damage output compared to light and medium, due to lack of the penetration / damage passives, while light armor is slightly less tanky, more in line with medium.

Aids so any build not stacking max mag would end up with a 6-7k ward in cp and even smaller in no cp. sorcs are the easiest thing to kill. If they are surviving it's because you haven't timed your burst to kill through ward, haven't timed your burst after ward expires, or you havent tried baiting them to go aggressive and forget wards.

Barbaran wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Honestly you are trying to fix something that isn't really a problem these days.

Sorc can't sustain shield stacking, really, now for that long. And of they can they aren't putting out much damage.

Hardly any Sorcs run a triple stack now, it's just too costly. And most only dual stack as we need that healing ward heal as class heal has its issues in combat.

Wards have plenty of counters too, people just need to adapt / react rather than want to Nerf stuff. I appreciate you are finding the middle ground but I don't think it's needed

i humbally disagree.
i mained a mag sorc for the past 8 months or so.
now im using a few other builds for some variety.
on my sorc i can stack hardend and harness with no issues. pop a potion get rhat lich proc, and the reduce cost/ regen from light armour its not a problem.

or if i use my amber plasm setup you streak and hit a dark deal or 2 with a pot and you can continue stacking with no issue.
my harness is about 15K with the 33% increase amd my harness is about 8K. that is a large shield.
i can have 4-5 guys on me without too much issue. a few streaks, a quick stack and offencive.

i might also point out that its not too costly if your fighting at least 1 magic build, harness is basically free if you are with the return it gives. hardend is cheap

im not saying this as a stam player who is complaining about shields, i say this as a sorc.

Even with lich when outnumbered you aren't sustaining indefinitely. Or amberplasm for that matter. Wards get pressured by 1 competent player just as a few more and they already have super small windows for going for a kill.

It's things like resto ult, pirate skel, bs, or a higher cp than the pugs hitting you that makes it feel like wards are all that.

Harness 4K
Hard 3k
Healing 3.6

A skill that requires 1-6 seconds of up time maintenance paired with all the other abilities you want to cast in that 1-6 second window.
skills whiff to shuffle or roll, get blocked or cleansed (curse). All while you take every bit of incoming damage and have to reset that same 1-6 second rotation

irlya, your a good sorc and your saying its super counterable with timing?
i cast shields before im too close to the 6 sec mark everytime, unless my opponent is stunned and is in execute range. just like you or many other very good sorcs.
there really is no timing shields unless the sorc literally waits for the last second to cast, which the good ones do not generally.
hit with a frag and still have some shield, its getting re cast.
get hit with an incap and still have some shield, its getting re cast.
as for CC's, you should know you can get a setup as a sorc that has great burst when combos hit, yet still has around 1200+ stam recovery (without pots) and since sorcs dont really use stam keeping your stam up with CC cooldowns isnt very hard.
i love my sorc, but the stack is still too much, very good sorcs basically have a 100% shield uptime.

Betsararie

There's nothing wrong with damage shields so there's nothing to fix

montiferus

Blanco wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with damage shields so there's nothing to fix

Lol. Hardest laugh of the day for me. Thank you!