Why is Max Attribute Damage Scaling Still in the Game?

GrumpyDuckling

What would be the harm in assigning flat damage values to skills - independent of max attributes - and allowing those skills to get boosted by wp/sp damage and buffs?

idk

Very poor idea and Pretry much pointless for several reasons.

1. Doesn't make sense to have a meaningless stat.
2. If max mag/stam had no affect on damage we would clearly avoid stacking it at all costs. It would make some sets completely stupid to even consider.
3. Obviously we would all have much higher health which would in turn change the game into some silliness.
4. It just a bat idea to over simplify a major MMORPG.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

What would be the harm in assigning flat damage values to skills - independent of max attributes - and allowing those skills to get boosted by wp/sp damage and buffs?

Because #teammaxresources > #teamwpnorspldmg

Betsararie

Why would we change such a core component of the game that doesn't bring with it any discernible issues.

I never agree with any of your posts man

Malacthulhu

They cannot keep the sets they have up to date, this would be a nightmare and probably pointless although I do not like to say that about someones idea.

STEVIL

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

What would be the harm in assigning flat damage values to skills - independent of max attributes - and allowing those skills to get boosted by wp/sp damage and buffs?

The harm would be that the large portions of the game involved in the current "use max stat for this" design would all have to be changed or become very flawed. So that takes a lot of work aqnd so far there is not one point of "and it would gain us..." entered into evidence.

So, right now, the answer is " the harm would be a crap ton of wasted dev time and increased risk and re-engineering for no demonstrable gain."

Change for the sake of change is not good change.

Liofa

Because everyone would give all points to Health and be immortal in raids . There wouldn't be any point in investing Max Magicka/Stamina .

idk

Blanco wrote: »

Why would we change such a core component of the game that doesn't bring with it any discernible issues.

I never agree with any of your posts man

Because not everything needs to make sense.

Waffennacht

Liofa wrote: »

Because everyone would give all points to Health and be immortal in raids . There wouldn't be any point in investing Max Magicka/Stamina .

This

GrumpyDuckling

idk wrote: »

Very poor idea and Pretry much pointless for several reasons.

1. Doesn't make sense to have a meaningless stat.
2. If max mag/stam had no affect on damage we would clearly avoid stacking it at all costs. It would make some sets completely stupid to even consider.
3. Obviously we would all have much higher health which would in turn change the game into some silliness.
4. It just a bat idea to over simplify a major MMORPG.

1. The stats aren't meaningless. It still costs stamina and magicka to cast skills. You need stamina/magicka resources.
2. There are sets that exist right now that are completely stupid to consider - and again, resources are needed.
3. Again, resources are needed to cast skills.
4. Removing max attribute damage scaling isn't oversimplifying. If anything, it would make the game more complex because attributes could be applied in many different ways.

Edit: typo

GrumpyDuckling

Blanco wrote: »

Why would we change such a core component of the game that doesn't bring with it any discernible issues.

I never agree with any of your posts man

Game was described as "play how you want" but the max attribute damage scaling design says otherwise. End game content discourages hybrids and encourages a stamina/magicka divide and binary builds.

That's an issue. I don't care if you agree.

Vapirko

I for one also enjoy the dynamic between building for wpn damage or max stat or somewhere in between and the various benefits they provide.

Solariken

I'm having a good chuckle at all the naysayers who don't remember that max stat damage scaling wasn't always in the game - it was simply added to make ZOS' four crappy classes SEEM like they were eight crappy classes. You know, to avoid having to design and develop actual new classes and instill more artificial replayability to the game.

On the one hand, removing it now would make ESO stat mechanics even more bland and maybe cause a few problems; however I agree with OP's sentiment that it destroyed a large aspect of what TES fans love about character-building.

Oakmontowls_ESO

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Very poor idea and Pretry much pointless for several reasons.

1. Doesn't make sense to have a meaningless stat.
2. If max mag/stam had no affect on damage we would clearly avoid stacking it at all costs. It would make some sets completely stupid to even consider.
3. Obviously we would all have much higher health which would in turn change the game into some silliness.
4. It just a bat idea to over simplify a major MMORPG.

1. The stats aren't meaningless. It still costs stamina and magicka to cast skills. You need stamina/magicka resources.
2. There are sets that exist right now that are completely stupid to consider - and again, resources are needed.
3. Again, resources are needed to cast skills.
4. Removing max attribute damage scaling isn't oversimplifying. If anything, it would make the game more complex because attributes could be applied in many different ways.

Edit: typo

I can tell you are trying to make hybrids a thing but there is also cp to consider. With cp it would still be much more beneficial to focus on one damage type (magika or stamina)

GrumpyDuckling

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Very poor idea and Pretry much pointless for several reasons.

1. Doesn't make sense to have a meaningless stat.
2. If max mag/stam had no affect on damage we would clearly avoid stacking it at all costs. It would make some sets completely stupid to even consider.
3. Obviously we would all have much higher health which would in turn change the game into some silliness.
4. It just a bat idea to over simplify a major MMORPG.

1. The stats aren't meaningless. It still costs stamina and magicka to cast skills. You need stamina/magicka resources.
2. There are sets that exist right now that are completely stupid to consider - and again, resources are needed.
3. Again, resources are needed to cast skills.
4. Removing max attribute damage scaling isn't oversimplifying. If anything, it would make the game more complex because attributes could be applied in many different ways.

Edit: typo

I can tell you are trying to make hybrids a thing but there is also cp to consider. With cp it would still be much more beneficial to focus on one damage type (magika or stamina)

With the changes to CP in Morrowind that brought more diminishing returns, hybrids got an effectiveness boost (although the removal of cost reduction hurt). With the amount of CP we currently have, they could be spread around and be pretty effective if max attribute damage scaling wasn't a thing.

idk

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Very poor idea and Pretry much pointless for several reasons.

1. Doesn't make sense to have a meaningless stat.
2. If max mag/stam had no affect on damage we would clearly avoid stacking it at all costs. It would make some sets completely stupid to even consider.
3. Obviously we would all have much higher health which would in turn change the game into some silliness.
4. It just a bat idea to over simplify a major MMORPG.

1. The stats aren't meaningless. It still costs stamina and magicka to cast skills. You need stamina/magicka resources.
2. There are sets that exist right now that are completely stupid to consider - and again, resources are needed.
3. Again, resources are needed to cast skills.
4. Removing max attribute damage scaling isn't oversimplifying. If anything, it would make the game more complex because attributes could be applied in many different ways.

Edit: typo

Your thoughts are very misguided. It is extremely obvious that players would put as little into mag/stam as possible since sustain does not change one bit with your suggestion. It would be absurd to stack stam or magicka and players would change to sets that offer minimal mag/stam and place much, if not all, of their attributes into health. That would certainly increase the QQ about unkillable players in Cyrodiil. What you seem to be missing is we already have a pool of magicka and stam to begin with.

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Why would we change such a core component of the game that doesn't bring with it any discernible issues.

I never agree with any of your posts man

Game was described as "play how you want" but the max attribute damage scaling design says otherwise. End game content discourages hybrids and encourages a stamina/magicka divide and binary builds.

That's an issue. I don't care if you agree.

If the idea is to make hybrids doing similar damage as pure builds then again, misguide. Pure builds are superior due to base game design and CP.

Not only do hybrids have the max weapon/spell damage issue, but also weapon/spell damage crit change issues. Even with the set that make the highest damage stat the same for both, that is a 5pc bonus that is not increasing your overall damage. Nothing helps crit chance.

So in the end, really no worries, it is not going to happen due to sound logic that would not be good or the game.

BTW, Zos stated the game is designed for play as you want. There was no mention that everyone's choice would be equal.

STEVIL

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Why would we change such a core component of the game that doesn't bring with it any discernible issues.

I never agree with any of your posts man

Game was described as "play how you want" but the max attribute damage scaling design says otherwise. End game content discourages hybrids and encourages a stamina/magicka divide and binary builds.

That's an issue. I don't care if you agree.

Seems like faulty logic derived from an overly broad re-imagining of a core design element.

"play how you want " has been achieved. All the content on normal mode can be completed without optimal biS design structures as long as basic minimal "decent design decisions" are made.

"Play how you want" does not mean your decisions as a player are so meaningless that you cannot sabotage a build. it enever did.

So, yes, it is one of many things that narrows and limits the choices more and more as you set your gaols higher and higher. Your decisions matter and are more than just cosmetic choices that deploy different animations but the same net results.

So, no, max att scaling does not say "dont play how you want" but it is one of many things that says ';your choices matter."

cpuScientist

STEVIL wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Why would we change such a core component of the game that doesn't bring with it any discernible issues.

I never agree with any of your posts man

Game was described as "play how you want" but the max attribute damage scaling design says otherwise. End game content discourages hybrids and encourages a stamina/magicka divide and binary builds.

That's an issue. I don't care if you agree.

Seems like faulty logic derived from an overly broad re-imagining of a core design element.

"play how you want " has been achieved. All the content on normal mode can be completed without optimal biS design structures as long as basic minimal "decent design decisions" are made.

"Play how you want" does not mean your decisions as a player are so meaningless that you cannot sabotage a build. it enever did.

So, yes, it is one of many things that narrows and limits the choices more and more as you set your gaols higher and higher. Your decisions matter and are more than just cosmetic choices that deploy different animations but the same net results.

So, no, max att scaling does not say "dont play how you want" but it is one of many things that says ';your choices matter."

Sir good job. Drop the mic walk away you WIN!

Bashev

Because the game was designed with soft caps in mind. Back in the time it wasn't a problem.

tommalmm

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

What would be the harm in assigning flat damage values to skills - independent of max attributes - and allowing those skills to get boosted by wp/sp damage and buffs?

With that kind of change I would simply spec into max health and stam/mag regen. With infinite sustain and a lot of health, 20k resource pools would be plenty. It's very possible to achieve it now. The thing is that you're dealing much less damage. With that change you would be able to get back to times of infinite sustain and sky high dps. I can imagine main tank pulling more dps that currently decent DDs do .

Jade1986

Liofa wrote: »

Because everyone would give all points to Health and be immortal in raids . There wouldn't be any point in investing Max Magicka/Stamina .

This is exactly what was happening at launch xD

Thrymbauld

I actually agree that damage from resource caps is dumb. I also agree that it pigeonholes builds and prevents build diversity in no small part because it diminishes hybridization.

It also heavily penalizes even small investments into survivability if they'll cost you primary resources. Your build choices with damage added to resource caps is an illusion.

There isn't any real "magic balance" behind it, what a load of garbage. The concept is simply to stack as much as you can while getting as much of everything else as you can.

Yes, in the beginning we put all our points into health. In the beginning, the only end game we had was Cyrodil, there was no CP or even veteran ranks, and TTK was so low if you didn't that you'd never be alive. Back when we did this, snipe would easily one shot kill most players.

That's not how PvP works anymore, and PvE is a non-thing because PvE can be statistically balanced around whatever you design onto the character sheet. If we woke up tomorrow and had a million HP, PvE could immediately be rebalanced to it.

Seraphayel

Skills scaling with stamina/magicka AND / OR spell/weapon damage is very bad game design. It limits build variety by a huge percentage. If every skill would either scale with max stamina and magicka whichever is higher and you wouldnt need specific morphs to achieve this is could work but as it is now it is limiting the build diversity very much.

clocksstoppe

idk wrote: »

Very poor idea and Pretry much pointless for several reasons.

1. Doesn't make sense to have a meaningless stat.

You use it to cast abilities you know.. and block.. and roll dodge.. and sprint.. and break free..

Seraphayel

clocksstoppe wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Very poor idea and Pretry much pointless for several reasons.

1. Doesn't make sense to have a meaningless stat.

You use it to cast abilities you know.. and block.. and roll dodge.. and sprint.. and break free..

The useless stat right now is rather spell damage / weapon damage lol.

GrumpyDuckling

STEVIL wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Why would we change such a core component of the game that doesn't bring with it any discernible issues.

I never agree with any of your posts man

Game was described as "play how you want" but the max attribute damage scaling design says otherwise. End game content discourages hybrids and encourages a stamina/magicka divide and binary builds.

That's an issue. I don't care if you agree.

Seems like faulty logic derived from an overly broad re-imagining of a core design element.

"play how you want " has been achieved. All the content on normal mode can be completed without optimal biS design structures as long as basic minimal "decent design decisions" are made.

"Play how you want" does not mean your decisions as a player are so meaningless that you cannot sabotage a build. it enever did.

So, yes, it is one of many things that narrows and limits the choices more and more as you set your gaols higher and higher. Your decisions matter and are more than just cosmetic choices that deploy different animations but the same net results.

So, no, max att scaling does not say "dont play how you want" but it is one of many things that says ';your choices matter."

Max attribute damage scaling doesn't say, "your choices matter." It says, " here are your two binary choices. Pick one."

STEVIL

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Why would we change such a core component of the game that doesn't bring with it any discernible issues.

I never agree with any of your posts man

Game was described as "play how you want" but the max attribute damage scaling design says otherwise. End game content discourages hybrids and encourages a stamina/magicka divide and binary builds.

That's an issue. I don't care if you agree.

Seems like faulty logic derived from an overly broad re-imagining of a core design element.

"play how you want " has been achieved. All the content on normal mode can be completed without optimal biS design structures as long as basic minimal "decent design decisions" are made.

"Play how you want" does not mean your decisions as a player are so meaningless that you cannot sabotage a build. it enever did.

So, yes, it is one of many things that narrows and limits the choices more and more as you set your gaols higher and higher. Your decisions matter and are more than just cosmetic choices that deploy different animations but the same net results.

So, no, max att scaling does not say "dont play how you want" but it is one of many things that says ';your choices matter."

Max attribute damage scaling doesn't say, "your choices matter." It says, " here are your two binary choices. Pick one."

While I do not agree with your unsubstantiated conclusion here, even if you are correct (for sale of argument) you have yet to show that removing it will produce **more than two** options for the same goal constraints -highest end damage output - that you assume for the claimed "binary".

Consider that when proc sets damage rose and was divorced from stat scaling, we did not see tons of hybrid diversity running amok in those builds but instead saw quite a surge in high health proc-for-kills play.

Going from your alleged binary option to a single attspec option is not making play how you want stronger.

Or did I miss the post where you showed your alternative did that?

GrumpyDuckling

STEVIL wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Why would we change such a core component of the game that doesn't bring with it any discernible issues.

I never agree with any of your posts man

Game was described as "play how you want" but the max attribute damage scaling design says otherwise. End game content discourages hybrids and encourages a stamina/magicka divide and binary builds.

That's an issue. I don't care if you agree.

Seems like faulty logic derived from an overly broad re-imagining of a core design element.

"play how you want " has been achieved. All the content on normal mode can be completed without optimal biS design structures as long as basic minimal "decent design decisions" are made.

"Play how you want" does not mean your decisions as a player are so meaningless that you cannot sabotage a build. it enever did.

So, yes, it is one of many things that narrows and limits the choices more and more as you set your gaols higher and higher. Your decisions matter and are more than just cosmetic choices that deploy different animations but the same net results.

So, no, max att scaling does not say "dont play how you want" but it is one of many things that says ';your choices matter."

Max attribute damage scaling doesn't say, "your choices matter." It says, " here are your two binary choices. Pick one."

While I do not agree with your unsubstantiated conclusion here, even if you are correct (for sale of argument) you have yet to show that removing it will produce **more than two** options for the same goal constraints -highest end damage output - that you assume for the claimed "binary".

Consider that when proc sets damage rose and was divorced from stat scaling, we did not see tons of hybrid diversity running amok in those builds but instead saw quite a surge in high health proc-for-kills play.

Going from your alleged binary option to a single attspec option is not making play how you want stronger.

Or did I miss the post where you showed your alternative did that?

I don't know why you're calling the current attribute damage scaling system an "alleged" binary, because it is. Stacking attribute points into one of the two damage resources (stamina or magicka) results in a character doing more damage. It's simple fact that any division of those resources lowers damage. It's not "alleged," it's fact.

Now consider the attribute placement options if damage scaling were to be removed from attributes. The possibilities would extend far beyond two binary attribute choices because you could actually (gasp!) make conscious choices on where to place your attributes rather than dump them all into one attribute! Your choices on where to place attributes would also matter more because you may consider allocation of attributes in a variety of different ways to fit your preferred style of game play - health for survival, magicka for skills/shields, and stamina for skills, sneak, dodge roll, sprint, block, and break free.

The attribute placement choices matter a lot more if attribute damage scaling is removed because you're not simply dumping all attribute points into one resource, but instead making more decisions on how you want your character to play.

Jawasa

Wouldnt this make any build that use shields useless?

Bobby_V_Rockit

Sound like something a synth would say...

Ragnaroek93

Would maybe be interesting if stats would increase healing/shields while spell/wpndmg increase damage.