Please no more nerfs, just buff everything, nerfs hurt the majority of the player base

Messy1

Okay, so I can't complete vMA ever since the resource reductions were nerfed.

I'm going to try some new builds that people have been recommending to me.

I am definitely playing this game slower than most people that being said I have 12 toons all DC with many hours sunk into each.

I was looking forward to having all of them be reasonably powerful at this point based on some of the old CP allocations and rules, but that is not the case anymore.

Now I have to focus on one or 2 characters to make them really good.

Maybe it's for the best because I will fine tune some of them and then really "git gud," but at the same time I am disappointed with all the nerfs. Sure I wasn't aware enough to take advantage of all the power that was available early on, but I'm a casual player, although I do have max crafting and all the motifs, still I'm a bit dismayed that things keep getting nerfed cause it sets me back a few steps like every few months. Divines forbid some of the skills that are not considered BiS right now get buffed to add more diversity to play styles.

TeIvanni

That's an MMO at heart though.
Skills, sets, items, gear are constantly changing.
Every few months a major update comes out and stuff that was BiS last month is garbage tier this week.

To avoid power creep and making the game just a walking easy mode, developers either need to release a lot of more challenging content. Or tweek existing gear/items in order to make certain set more desirable than others.

This encourages grinding every update to get the new BiS gear.

Game gets stagnant if a particular set remains BiS for a long period of time as everyone will get it and then lose interest in grinding gear, as they already have it.

Avnr

TeIvanni wrote: »

That's an MMO at heart though.
Skills, sets, items, gear are constantly changing.
Every few months a major update comes out and stuff that was BiS last month is garbage tier this week.

To avoid power creep and making the game just a walking easy mode, developers either need to release a lot of more challenging content. Or tweek existing gear/items in order to make certain set more desirable than others.

This encourages grinding every update to get the new BiS gear.

Game gets stagnant if a particular set remains BiS for a long period of time as everyone will get it and then lose interest in grinding gear, as they already have it.

no no no

The changes was made for a not good reason "not working as intented" reasons(proc sets? perma block? and the list is long)

I run vma and have all weapons, but i forced to run sorc pet boring heavy attack ,with other classes that i do love , with all the nice skills that you cant use , you run our magicka so fast.

Messy1

Yes, keep it coming, point and counterpoint!!!

Everstorm

Countering power creep is like paying taxes: nobody likes to do it but it's necessary to keep the game/country running.
The game, outside of a few veteran encounters, is too easy as it is, let's not ask ZOS to make it even worse.

Biro123

All change within IT takes time and effort in terms of deciding what to change, how to change it, coding the change and testing. All change also comes with a risk of breaking something..

So.. with that in mind, to achieve balance, should they nerf one thing or instead buff 1000?

You could have that nerf done in a couple of weeks - with a small chance of it being broken

OR you could have those buffs done in a couple of years with a VERY good chance that multiple things will become broken - and then require later nerfs (or instead buffs to everything else)

Sithia

Like back in the playground - ITS NERF OR NOTHING!

Mystrius_Archaion

Gut reaction to thread title incoming....

Buffs to anything "under-performing" relative to "over-performing"(not insanely easy-mode, mind you) competition to bring them up to the same level would be ideal and the smartest move any game developer could make because it encourages "fun".
The only reason for any nerfs would be the insanely overpowered just plain broken things needing a fix.

But....
These developers chose a long time ago to sell their souls to what they determined was "challenging" and "rewarding" which can be defined as "frustrating and tedious".
If it isn't a "grind" or "challenging of the best players" then they won't go for it.


Part of the problem is the same thing that affects all developers, and a very similar problem for anyone who makes any decision for other people:
1) They made the rules, knowing them backwards and forwards and inside and out, and test them from their perspective, thus making it seem much easier to them and less complicated than to the intended audience. They forget to take this into account.
2) They forget that not every interested customer is going to be as capable physically or mentally as themselves. A very large section of the population that would be very interested in this video game are unable to play them to the same level, or even at all, due to the difficulty of the action combat even in the most simple low level encounters.

My second point is the most important, as even my capabilities have gone downhill over the years and I have to seriously reconsider games and thus paying for them. Even handicapped/disabled/injured/older players love cosmetics for one. Is there any reason at all to lock those cosmetics such as titles and skins and costumes behind "veteran hard mode" or "emperor of pvp" without any alternative option, even a crown store bypass, for those who have no hope of achieving what we deem "easy"?
I think not, and that worries me. What if I end up disabled from a car crash or a disease in the future, more than my already decreasing abilities, and am no longer able to enjoy a game at a relatively basic level? So, I put myself in the shoes of those that are and argue for their benefit.


@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno
How disability friendly is ESO really? You may need to rethink that.

FoolishHuman

It's simple really, what's the difference between reducing the power of strong skills and increasing the power of weak skills? It's really just the numbers for the players. Increasing the general power of everyone will just mean that in the long run content will have to be made more difficult. (and don't tell me it wouldn't happen when everyone can get maelstrom weapons because of buffs) So the game would be the same but with bigger numbers. Except that everyone who just started the game and still has to get to the maximum power level will struggle more because of the increased difficulty.

It's much better to just keep the difficulty level of the game and balance around that, i.e. overperforming skills get decreased and underperforming skills get increased in power. It's what they are doing right now but people freak out when their numbers go down.

I'm just glad I don't have to deal with stuff like in diablo 3 where every set grants 3000% damage increase and enemies have to be buffed by a million percent in health or something to keep up with the players.

Sergun

year or more of buff to come pls

Mystrius_Archaion

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Increasing the general power of everyone will just mean that in the long run content will have to be made more difficult.

Nope. That's a choice they can decide to go against.
The only reason to make anything "more difficult" is to support the upper tier of player capabilities over the majority.


And by the way, "more difficult" is never ever a good thing because of the very word "difficult". Since when has "difficult" been enjoyable 100% of the time? So why must things be "difficult" 100% of the time without any choice of "difficulty setting".

I like "easy mode" and I cannot lie. You other brothers can deny, but when a game walks in...

Everstorm

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

I like "easy mode" and I cannot lie.

Millennial I assume?

Mystrius_Archaion

Everstorm wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

I like "easy mode" and I cannot lie.

Millennial I assume?

I wish. I would have more years left then. I was making a joke at that song which I find funny.
I like easy mode because "I'm a filthy casual" but also play as much as a hardcore and I don't have the same capabilities with my hands as I used to sadly.

Edit to add:
Cool name Everstorm. I wish I thought of it for a character before you.

Voxicity

The changes were great. I'm loving them and ZOS did a great job ignoring the carebears and pushed the changes out no matter how many people cried on forums.

If you can no longer complete vMA since Morrowind, you might want to try changing your setup. If that doesn't work, then you probably only barely cleared it pre-morrowind.

Marto

Nerfs are healthier for the game on the long run. Asking for only buffs is ignoring the fact that balance is all about... well, balance. You can't do that if you're unwilling to remove power here and there.

Turelus

Here is a tip.

Stop using Nerf/Buff and just use "balanced" and you'll never worry about this issue again, every will just get balanced.

Mystrius_Archaion

Marto wrote: »

Nerfs are healthier for the game on the long run. Asking for only buffs is ignoring the fact that balance is all about... well, balance. You can't do that if you're unwilling to remove power here and there.

Actually, balance is about 2 sides being equal, not anything about a specific increase or decrease.
They can buff classes, or item sets or anything else, that are not performing at the same level to the level of over-performing classes and still achieve balance, and this would actually please everyone as there is a reason people play the over-performing characters and others complain about not being them.


Here is the flaw of the horse with the carrot on a stick in front of it....
The horse has to get the carrot before a hard to determine point at which it either learns it will never reach it, loses interest for another thing it can attain or dies from starvation.

This game will not remain healthy with "difficult challenging content" all over the place and more and more things that are added that are such and take the same or more time to grind out.
This is why games that constantly increase their level cap have to increase the leveling speed for newer players to catch up and add systems that let anyone of any level play together. It sucks to have too much to do.


One of the problems with this game is it is designed upside down.
Grouping needs to be easier than solo content. If people want a challenge they will want to solo something and have their own ability determine whether they win or lose.
Grouping is never done as something people consider a challenge. The only challenge to grouping is putting up with the other people who always get blamed for failure of the group as a whole. How many people do you really honestly think blame themselves for their group failing to finish content? If your answer is different than "hardly anybody" or "nobody" then you are either the minority who honestly does criticize themselves, have low self-esteem and always criticize yourself or don't have any idea what happens in groups at the end when it falls apart.

Solo is where challenge should always remain, even soloing group content. Group content should always be easier and built "for fun" otherwise grouping dies as it has been doing so slowly for years in every MMO.

I used to group a lot more myself, in City of Heroes mostly that made grouping easier than soloing and fun, but I am losing my interest in MMOs entirely lately due to the grind and same old gameplay and mandatory grouping when grouping isn't fun anymore.

Krayzie

Messy1 wrote: »

Okay, so I can't complete vMA ever since the resource reductions were nerfed.

I'm going to try some new builds that people have been recommending to me.

I am definitely playing this game slower than most people that being said I have 12 toons all DC with many hours sunk into each.

I was looking forward to having all of them be reasonably powerful at this point based on some of the old CP allocations and rules, but that is not the case anymore.

Now I have to focus on one or 2 characters to make them really good.

Maybe it's for the best because I will fine tune some of them and then really "git gud," but at the same time I am disappointed with all the nerfs. Sure I wasn't aware enough to take advantage of all the power that was available early on, but I'm a casual player, although I do have max crafting and all the motifs, still I'm a bit dismayed that things keep getting nerfed cause it sets me back a few steps like every few months. Divines forbid some of the skills that are not considered BiS right now get buffed to add more diversity to play styles.

Maelstrom is incredibly easy with a heavy attack build, elegant/netchs touch.

You wont have to worry about running out of resources.

Messy1

Krayzie wrote: »

Messy1 wrote: »

Okay, so I can't complete vMA ever since the resource reductions were nerfed.

I'm going to try some new builds that people have been recommending to me.

I am definitely playing this game slower than most people that being said I have 12 toons all DC with many hours sunk into each.

I was looking forward to having all of them be reasonably powerful at this point based on some of the old CP allocations and rules, but that is not the case anymore.

Now I have to focus on one or 2 characters to make them really good.

Maybe it's for the best because I will fine tune some of them and then really "git gud," but at the same time I am disappointed with all the nerfs. Sure I wasn't aware enough to take advantage of all the power that was available early on, but I'm a casual player, although I do have max crafting and all the motifs, still I'm a bit dismayed that things keep getting nerfed cause it sets me back a few steps like every few months. Divines forbid some of the skills that are not considered BiS right now get buffed to add more diversity to play styles.

Maelstrom is incredibly easy with a heavy attack build, elegant/netchs touch.

You wont have to worry about running out of resources.

Running Mag Sorc I assume?

Ajintse

let's Boycott Nerfs.

GreenhaloX

FoolishHuman wrote: »

It's simple really, what's the difference between reducing the power of strong skills and increasing the power of weak skills? It's really just the numbers for the players. Increasing the general power of everyone will just mean that in the long run content will have to be made more difficult.

Yes.. regardless of mmo, this is what forward progress is. If I own a gaming company, this is how I would do it. Never nerfed toons, but always continuing to improve on the toons. Like any other award winning games, even with its DLC, the character(s) are buffed and with improved skillsets and abilities while enemies and contents are giving a bit more difficulties and also buffed and whatnot. When they nerf toons, that is not improvement nor balance for PvE. They want to nerf toons on ESO.. fine, but just do it for PvP. That is where all the folks crying for nerfs are just PvP-related.

Voxicity wrote: »

The changes were great. I'm loving them and ZOS did a great job ignoring the carebears and pushed the changes out no matter how many people cried on forums.

If you can no longer complete vMA since Morrowind, you might want to try changing your setup. If that doesn't work, then you probably only barely cleared it pre-morrowind.

Ha ha ha.. this seem just like on Amazon with those people being paid by companies to provide good/positive feedback on its products, regardless of how jacked up it is or how many other unsatisfactory feedback or poor reviews are given on the product.

Doctordarkspawn

TeIvanni wrote: »

That's an MMO at heart though.
Skills, sets, items, gear are constantly changing.
Every few months a major update comes out and stuff that was BiS last month is garbage tier this week.

To avoid power creep and making the game just a walking easy mode, developers either need to release a lot of more challenging content. Or tweek existing gear/items in order to make certain set more desirable than others.

This encourages grinding every update to get the new BiS gear.

Game gets stagnant if a particular set remains BiS for a long period of time as everyone will get it and then lose interest in grinding gear, as they already have it.

Constantly changing? Not nearly this much. Radical gameplay changes, fine, but usually for the -better-, and are usually vetoed by the playerbase if they're that bad.

It gets stagnant if you constantly force people to re-learn your game every time, and crap all over they're work. That gets people to leave.

Messy1

Voxicity wrote: »

The changes were great. I'm loving them and ZOS did a great job ignoring the carebears and pushed the changes out no matter how many people cried on forums.

If you can no longer complete vMA since Morrowind, you might want to try changing your setup. If that doesn't work, then you probably only barely cleared it pre-morrowind.

You're right I just barely cleared it . . .

What the hell I change my mind . . .

ZOS, great job, you guys are really awesome, thank you for the gift of your genius.

Please continue to develop and balance the game as you see fit with minimal input from your player base. It's a winning strategy and I applaud you even if it is demeaning to the players! Well done!

Doctordarkspawn

Fact 1. ESO has never been a game about progression. It has allways been a game about success. Nerfs have come when the player has become to powerfull, not buffs or tiers to the content to accomidate this forward progression of player skill.

Fact 2. Radically re-designing the game has failed to enamor the playerbase.

You have two options, Zenimax Online staff. Either A, redesign the skill, class, and PVE roll system, how these systems work, and are used, from the ground up entire, and stop living off a cobbled-together PVP system hastily retuned to support PVE, or B, stop re-designing with halfmeasures and delaying tactics.

Give us a full re-design or enough with these nerfs to keep players in check. Let us be overpowered, or re-design the system to make the upper limit what you think should be achieveable, then edit the content to suit this.

Aiphaton

Turelus wrote: »

Here is a tip.

Stop using Nerf/Buff and just use "balanced" and you'll never worry about this issue again, every will just get balanced.

Last time when Zenimax balanced something the Mag Dk was an wet noodle, just want to refer to Etaniel there
https://youtube.com/watch?v=TiUkQIjKlpA

The balance that make the Class playable again came out like 7-8 month later..
Shortly after balancing same things Zenimax invented the beloved PROC with One Tamriel sets which tons of bugs, wasnt it fun to get hit by 8k+ Velidreth double hititng Selenes, having an 100% up time on snare trough Tremorscale and dont forget that lovly Viper death recap even if you got sniped cause switching your bar will apply viper

Zenimax wasnt able to fix that in like 1month no they need like 6+ month to fix atleast the critical hit from Proc sets.
It was a blast, wasnt it?
And now 1 year later (shortly after Morrowind) proc sets got nerfed... but hi they are still really strong and you guys know why cause they decreased the sustain..
So its still the same.

I dont want to use the word balanced ever if Zenimax is fixing something...
Its correct if people say nerf and buffs...

And yes Zenimax should stop nerfing evrything its no fun to play an stam build as dps if your whole rotation is heavy attack, dot heavy attack dot, switch bar poison injection, endless etc... switch bar ..
or being an sorc heavy attack, heavy attack .... stop snooring in my raid dude... oh sorry that rotation makes me sleepy ..

@Mystrius_Archaion
Grouping was fun in Eso, when they game was about skill and mechanic.
Right now theres no content which makes the game difficult for a Solo Player, MSA is just boring since you have 150 CHPs more, i can remember when i did it on my Stam Nord Dk (race change wasnt avaible, so yeah *** passives), but i managed to finish the vet mode 3 weeks after the release from Orsinium.

Right now grouping is horrible except you want to sleep while doing your rotation on bosses which have 100 million HP.
I only join raids due the fact i like the people in my guild.

FakeFox

Even though a lot of people seem to feel like it not everything has generally been nerfed since Morrowind. Balancing has rather shifted. It has often been said that those changes were made to "lower the ceiling and raise the floor," but in my opinion it has done the opposite, raising the ceiling and lowering the floor, at least for the moment. I hope that in the long term casuals will be able to adapt as well and we have a overall more healthy game.

FoolishHuman

GreenhaloX wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

It's simple really, what's the difference between reducing the power of strong skills and increasing the power of weak skills? It's really just the numbers for the players. Increasing the general power of everyone will just mean that in the long run content will have to be made more difficult.

Yes.. regardless of mmo, this is what forward progress is. If I own a gaming company, this is how I would do it. Never nerfed toons, but always continuing to improve on the toons. Like any other award winning games, even with its DLC, the character(s) are buffed and with improved skillsets and abilities while enemies and contents are giving a bit more difficulties and also buffed and whatnot. When they nerf toons, that is not improvement nor balance for PvE. They want to nerf toons on ESO.. fine, but just do it for PvP. That is where all the folks crying for nerfs are just PvP-related.

Power creep is not forward progress, it's the opposite because you get nowhere, just the numbers get bigger. That seems to be very important though for some people, bigger numbers! That's why we are players and not game designers. Someone has to make the rules and someone play by them, if the players make the rules the game will be ruined.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Increasing the general power of everyone will just mean that in the long run content will have to be made more difficult.

Nope. That's a choice they can decide to go against.
The only reason to make anything "more difficult" is to support the upper tier of player capabilities over the majority.

There are already people complaining that the game is too easy. I can tell you as a casual player myself that since I hit cp300 most normal dungeons are boring and overland enemies die in 2 hits. It's really just annyoning to get from A to B and not challenging.
You can be sure as soon as everyone is running around with maelstrom weapons and soloing dungeons there would be a difficulty increase, if not for the current content then for new content. Because otherwise the game would be so boring that most people leave.

Doctordarkspawn

FoolishHuman wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

It's simple really, what's the difference between reducing the power of strong skills and increasing the power of weak skills? It's really just the numbers for the players. Increasing the general power of everyone will just mean that in the long run content will have to be made more difficult.

Yes.. regardless of mmo, this is what forward progress is. If I own a gaming company, this is how I would do it. Never nerfed toons, but always continuing to improve on the toons. Like any other award winning games, even with its DLC, the character(s) are buffed and with improved skillsets and abilities while enemies and contents are giving a bit more difficulties and also buffed and whatnot. When they nerf toons, that is not improvement nor balance for PvE. They want to nerf toons on ESO.. fine, but just do it for PvP. That is where all the folks crying for nerfs are just PvP-related.

Power creep is not forward progress, it's the opposite because you get nowhere, just the numbers get bigger. That seems to be very important though for some people, bigger numbers! That's why we are players and not game designers. Someone has to make the rules and someone play by them, if the players make the rules the game will be ruined.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Increasing the general power of everyone will just mean that in the long run content will have to be made more difficult.

Nope. That's a choice they can decide to go against.
The only reason to make anything "more difficult" is to support the upper tier of player capabilities over the majority.

There are already people complaining that the game is too easy. I can tell you as a casual player myself that since I hit cp300 most normal dungeons are boring and overland enemies die in 2 hits. It's really just annyoning to get from A to B and not challenging.
You can be sure as soon as everyone is running around with maelstrom weapons and soloing dungeons there would be a difficulty increase, if not for the current content then for new content. Because otherwise the game would be so boring that most people leave.

"As soon as everyone is running around with maelstrom weapons"

BAHAHAAHAHAHA. Oh wow, your serious?

Mate, Maelstrom has been out for at least a year running. If that was going to happen, if the game was as easy as you seem to think it is, they'd have done it allready.

Stop. Just stop. The game isn't as easy as you try to paint it, and the demand for the game to become harder is a minority demand. And power creep isn't the issue. The issue is the design is absolutely aimless, bowing to the rise and fall of who screams loudest at the time. A system gone through so many hasty conversions for so many different audiences, it's become a amalgam of whatever was needed at the time.

Advocate comprehensive system reform in the department of Skills, Roles, and Classes, and how they effect PVP, and PVE, if you want the issue to be solved.

KingJ

People won't be happy until they can 1 shot everything and that what will happened if they only buffed things.One shot trial bosses so much fun.Thats why people leave the game when everything is easy it gets boring fast after the thousand times light attacking that boss and it vaporized its boring then people will get pissed if they increase all the bosses health.
.Than you want more content which no dev team can create and test at the speed the audience's can beat it.For example it can take a dev team 3 months to make 10 hours of content which someone can get through in 1 day.So they make things a grind to inflate content length.

Mystrius_Archaion

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

Increasing the general power of everyone will just mean that in the long run content will have to be made more difficult.

Nope. That's a choice they can decide to go against.
The only reason to make anything "more difficult" is to support the upper tier of player capabilities over the majority.

There are already people complaining that the game is too easy. I can tell you as a casual player myself that since I hit cp300 most normal dungeons are boring and overland enemies die in 2 hits. It's really just annyoning to get from A to B and not challenging.
You can be sure as soon as everyone is running around with maelstrom weapons and soloing dungeons there would be a difficulty increase, if not for the current content then for new content. Because otherwise the game would be so boring that most people leave.

But that should be a choice for players to make with a difficulty slider/setting.
Anybody else remember that Skyrim had a very simple difficulty slider? It just tuned your damage taken and dealt higher and lower by an easy number calculation.

Why don't MMOs have a personal difficulty slider so no matter who you play with you can make it harder on yourself if you want?
This is why some people do those "naked max level" or "pacifist max level" self-imposed challenges. It's beyond what the game already does.

If people really want challenge and difficulty they can always make it harder on themselves.
I personally like things easier. I'm not a young button-twitcher with reflexes to beat Wizpig on Diddy Kong Racing on N64 by lapping him almost twice(look it up) like I used to. I'm an old-fart who wants to enjoy a pretty world with a lot to see and do and enjoy talking NPCs that were just a dream back in the days of my first MMO named Tibia that still didn't even have sound as of 2015 when it was at least 15 years old and still being updated.
I don't want hurting hands or sweaty armpits anymore.

GreenhaloX

FoolishHuman wrote: »

GreenhaloX wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

It's simple really, what's the difference between reducing the power of strong skills and increasing the power of weak skills? It's really just the numbers for the players. Increasing the general power of everyone will just mean that in the long run content will have to be made more difficult.

Yes.. regardless of mmo, this is what forward progress is. If I own a gaming company, this is how I would do it. Never nerfed toons, but always continuing to improve on the toons. Like any other award winning games, even with its DLC, the character(s) are buffed and with improved skillsets and abilities while enemies and contents are giving a bit more difficulties and also buffed and whatnot. When they nerf toons, that is not improvement nor balance for PvE. They want to nerf toons on ESO.. fine, but just do it for PvP. That is where all the folks crying for nerfs are just PvP-related.

Power creep is not forward progress, it's the opposite because you get nowhere, just the numbers get bigger. That seems to be very important though for some people, bigger numbers! That's why we are players and not game designers. Someone has to make the rules and someone play by them, if the players make the rules the game will be ruined.

Nahh.. improving on character(s) is not power creeping. When toons are nerfed (for PvE, at least), that is not improving or power creeping; that is just merely power decreasing and backward progress. Yes, we are the gamers who just turn on the platform, whatever it may be, sign-on/log-in and press play. However, we are also customers for a product of a gaming business, and as customers or consumers of this gaming product, we get to choose whether to play or not to play it. Yes, there have been plenty who have chosen not to play and plenty who have like it, adhere to it and chosen to stay on as well. Also, it is not the players who ruin games or a product, it is those company/developers who doesn't adhere to or listen to the majority of the gamers or consumers base. Not saying Zen/Bethesa are this way or not, but like any businesses when they don't adhere to or listen to reviews from their customers, such business or company and/or their product(s) can go down fast. Anyways, as with any game, it's play or don't play. They will always find a way to market for newcomers.