[FEEDBACK]: Unpopular opinion is unpopular (dungeon mechanics focus on movement, not experience)

Ekadzati

Disclaimer: I know that what I'm about to post is not a popular opinion; I know many will feel compelled to chime in with anything from "get gud" to stuff I cannot yet imagine. All the same, I'm know I'm not the only one who sees things as I do, so here I go again....

I only very, very rarely bother with dungeons because it seems that they have, by and large, become more about being content for theory-crafters/min-maxers than for "the rest of us".

Here's what I mean:

1. Every encounter is "zerg by mobs" except boss fights, which are mostly MMO versions of "so you think you can dance".
2. There seems to be little room for actual skill/strategy work (i.e., splitting mobs, managing aggro/hate listing, group positioning); instead "strategy" has (in my opinion, devolved) into how well one can time casts between running out of "the stupid" and over-sized, over-clocked attacks/AoE.
3. "Difficulty" seems now to be more a measure of a player's physical ability to mash keys in the right sequence and acquire the right gear than anything.

I am continually at a loss on how ZOS can get it so right with delves and dolmens and then, do THIS with dungeons. If this series of mechanic choices are intended to cater to the exclusivity crowd of theory-crafters/min-maxers, then ZoS should just flat out say so and people like myself (who play for social and generally more casual reasons) can give up on them all together.

But what I really wish would happen is more along the lines of a mission generation system a la OG Anarchy Online:

1. Player indicates which dungeon they're interested in experiencing.
2. Player indicates if they prefer better loot, better money, or better experience; this determines what manner of dungeon balancing is selected by the system.

• When player indicates "better loot", system responds with fewer trash mobs, more mini-bosses, lower money rewards, higher difficulty of all fights, and boosted gear quality/drops (this would be your current "dance with the stars" implementation).
• When player indicates "better money", system responds with more trash mobs, fewer mini-bosses, little/no gear loot, moderate difficulty, and very nice/boosted money rewards.
• When player indicates "better experience", system responds with more story elements, NPC encounters, very little money/gear rewards, but very nice/boosted experience rewards.

This would allow a much broader set of players to experience the content, while still maintaining the "exclusivity" that the more avid "end game" players desire.
It would also allow ZOS to track and analyze for where the customer base "sits" in a given moment on style/type of content, difficulty, and replayability; this should also deliver valuable insight for use in DLC designs for the future. Indeed, ZOS could even spin off achievements and rewards by each "type" of experience.

So... there you have it, my $0.02 worth, that I am fully aware shall vary in value depending upon current community valuation. (grin)

Danksta

I'm confused. At first I thought you wanted more of a challenge then you go on to say, "I am continually at a loss on how ZOS can get it so right with delves and dolmens and then, do THIS with dungeons".

So do you want dungeons to be more difficult? Or do you want to kill the bosses in two seconds like a delve boss?

bebynnag

your opinion of dungeons is in my opinion skewed by bad experiences, since you dont do dungeons that often you may not realise that group finder barley functions in its current state, your suggestion therefore wouldnt work.

people do not run dungeons to make money (or at least they shouldnt be) there are far easier ways to make money in the game

people after armour/weapons run normal, you only need to run vet if you are after purple jewelry or a monster helm or an extra undaunted key from your pledge

people wanting to activate 'story mode' as you call it can join a guild, or post in zone chat to that effect and find a group manually.


while end game vet trials do require gear optimisation, delves dolmens & dungeons do not, i have been completing dungeons on xbox NA (where i have no CP) on my stam sorc who is wearing all stolen white gear.

the difficulty level for delves is ideal for new players, people tend to out grow them very quickly

the difficulty level of dolmens - changes have been made recently to scale the difficulty to the number of players at the dolmen, i agree that this is good unfortunatley there is a cap to how hard they are able to become and on busy servers maps they are rediculously easy

gonna TLDR this for the OP who could be bothered to read it before calling me a troll
group finder doesnt work - the 3 modes you suggest can already be achieved within the game
the difficulty of delve bosses are perfect for new players
the difficulty of dolmens is great for small/medium sized groups

Ekadzati

@Danksta - You do not seem very confused to me, merely looking for an argument. Sorry, not happening here.

@puffytheslayer - I hear you saying there's no need for this. We shall agree to disagree.

Beardimus

Bit confused by your thread as it contradicts a bit, but I think I agree in that this year the game as gotten very robotic in terms of the dance on the keys with best gear.

Easier content you can 'play' more, duck and dive etc. Even vMA is the same. But trials et al seem you need to stand still and do the riverdance on the keys in a set manner to 'be good' and it is dull. I prefer more movement

However learning the new dungeons I found the mechanics interesting, that said the 'best' teams still tear thru on DPS alone but some do have more interesting mechanics

Lieblingsjunge

You do not min-max for dungeons? Well, you can - but there's no need. Dungeons are pretty simple, both mechanical-wise(most of them) and requierment-wise.

Mechanics are both movement focused and strategical(did you ever try and tank the Daedroth(what's the name of it again >.<) in vWGT that deals increased damage over time, the wrong way? Have fun if you do.
Did you ever run into the wall at the last boss of vWGT and got 1-shot? Well, avoid the wall next time. Did you stand in stupid and died to the lighting dot? Well, rip you, move next time. Did you run towards the Atronach instead of trying to keep your distance until your group could kill it? Well, run away next time, then.

I'm definitely a casual PvE-player. Yet I managed all achievements in vRoM with a group that did ~20k DPS average(Compare those DPS numbers to the "min-maxers" as you call them, and you'll see there's at least 25-30k deficit). And that dungeon, oh boy, that's filled with mechanics & you gotta be strategical in that one(unless you have 50k DPS x2 and burn through it in a second :^)


[Pls note: I'm not sure if I even understood your initial post correctly. I tried - but I'm not sure).

Ekadzati

Beardimus wrote: »

Bit confused by your thread as it contradicts a bit, but I think I agree in that this year the game as gotten very robotic in terms of the dance on the keys with best gear.

Easier content you can 'play' more, duck and dive etc. Even vMA is the same. But trials et al seem you need to stand still and do the riverdance on the keys in a set manner to 'be good' and it is dull. I prefer more movement

However learning the new dungeons I found the mechanics interesting, that said the 'best' teams still tear thru on DPS alone but some do have more interesting mechanics

You're close enough that I can say you get me, at least better than the folks trying to troll up an argument. I am no fan of robotic play and it seems the deeper the dungeon, the more robotic the expectation. Not happy making, not fun, and not skill, frankly.

Thanks for the post!

@Lieblingsjunge - I'm happy for you, but that in no way diminishes my stance nor my request. I'm not here trying to convince you (or those posting as you are) of anything. I'm providing my feedback and requests to ZOS on the forum intended for such things. Think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

bebynnag

Ekadzati wrote: »

@Danksta - You do not seem very confused to me, merely looking for an argument. Sorry, not happening here.

@puffytheslayer - I hear you saying there's no need for this. We shall agree to disagree.

and i get the impression you dont want constructive feedback

so im just going to fall into the 'elitist stereotype' youve probablly pidgenholed me in & explai that on xbox EU where i have max level characters i solo veteran dungeons because its quicker than waiting for a group using group finder, and on xbox NA where my 'main' character is a level 30 templar argonian, i am dragging max CP players through the content cause their deeps are so weak.

Ekadzati

puffytheslayer wrote: »

and i get the impression you dont want constructive feedback

You're absolutely right; unless you work for ZOS, of course... but given your tone thusfar, I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

No worries.

Lieblingsjunge

Ekadzati wrote: »

@Lieblingsjunge - I'm happy for you, but that in no way diminishes my stance nor my request. I'm not here trying to convince you (or those posting as you are) of anything. I'm providing my feedback and requests to ZOS on the forum intended for such things. Think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm aware of that. But that's the whole point of a forum, no? You post your feedback - it's public so other players chime in. You can't expect people not to post anything in your forum(it's public), even though you intend it only as a feedback directed at ZoS.

When someone makes a public forum - I expect them to be aware of he fact that there 1) Can be people disagreeing 2) Can be people wanting to discuss this. 3) Can be people posting in your thread. As it seems to me, its that you're completely against everything or everyone that goes against your point of view, which is not good forum-etiquette imo. Should be open for suggestions, even to your feedback.

Ekadzati

I can see where this is headed - the assumption that because it's a forum, anyone should be welcome with open arms to say whatever they like, eh?

You can surely do that. But, as stated, now several times, this is clearly marked [feedback] and unless you confuse that with "request for discussion", I'm not sure how or why you feel compelled to act as if I'm "in the wrong" for not really caring to argue the matter.

It's my feedback to ZOS. It doesn't require your agreement. If I wanted to debate the matter, I'd entitled it [debate].

Or, you can just keep on slamming, I understand that's kind of how game forums work these days (which is why I'm not active but to provide feedback anymore, in fact).

bebynnag

Ekadzati wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

and i get the impression you dont want constructive feedback

You're absolutely right; unless you work for ZOS, of course... but given your tone thusfar, I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

No worries.

oh there are worries - sorry
i do not apriciate being called a troll (knew i should of quoted it before OP had the opertunity to edit thir post)

my 1st post was polite,

I explained very simply why your suggestion wouldnt work imo,

i offeredg advice on how to achieve the experiences you are seeking in the game

i atempted to explaing why people are finding your post confusing,

and you called me a troll, and then pulled passive agressive *** on me twice

Ekadzati

@puffytheslayer - see previous post. no worries. /tips hat

idk

There are essentially 3 ways to design dungeons.

1. Make them DPS races with an enrage at the end for those light on dps.
2. Use mechanics so easy players must be aware of what is happening around them rather than the simple stack and burn
3. Avoid both 1 & 2 and have easy content without much of a dps requirement and mechanics are mostly forgiving.

ESO ha wall the above in their dungeons.

Also, content have levels with each level requiring more. Open world is the he easiest. Then normal dungeons etc.

Lieblingsjunge

Ekadzati wrote: »

I can see where this is headed - the assumption that because it's a forum, anyone should be welcome with open arms to say whatever they like, eh?

You can surely do that. But, as stated, now several times, this is clearly marked [feedback] and unless you confuse that with "request for discussion", I'm not sure how or why you feel compelled to act as if I'm "in the wrong" for not really caring to argue the matter.

It's my feedback to ZOS. It doesn't require your agreement. If I wanted to debate the matter, I'd entitled it [debate].

Or, you can just keep on slamming, I understand that's kind of how game forums work these days (which is why I'm not active but to provide feedback anymore, in fact).

Of course. If you look up previous feedback-forums, have you seen them go unresponded? No? Didn't think so.

It doesn't matter how you mark it - I could mark a forum thread "[Private: Do not post unless in my guild]" and then nobody outside of my guild could write - even though I posted it in a public forum? Sounds pretty silly, eh?

Ekadzati

Oh you mistake me, I'm not setting forth a position to argue over who should or shouldn't post here. That WOULD be silly.

I'm merely saying that if you're not ZOS, I really don't much care what you're saying so you're really just wasting your time.

Clearly, how one spends one's time is a choice. Take me, for example, I'm about to leave this behind and go back to gaming.

/tips hat and heads out

bebynnag

Ekadzati wrote: »

@puffytheslayer - see previous post. no worries. /tips hat

if your previous post were true you wouldnt of called anyone that disagreed with you a troll and fawned all over the one peorson who agred with you because they completley misunderstood your post

Danksta

Ekadzati wrote: »

@Danksta - You do not seem very confused to me, merely looking for an argument. Sorry, not happening here.

@puffytheslayer - I hear you saying there's no need for this. We shall agree to disagree.

Even more confused now...

Jawasa

To help every1 understand (inc zos ) maybe explain what They did right with dolmes and delvs. Because from My exp the only thing overland gives us atm is storymode. Thats one of the modes you want if i'm correct.

Magdalina

Ekadzati wrote: »

I can see where this is headed - the assumption that because it's a forum, anyone should be welcome with open arms to say whatever they like, eh?

You can surely do that. But, as stated, now several times, this is clearly marked [feedback] and unless you confuse that with "request for discussion", I'm not sure how or why you feel compelled to act as if I'm "in the wrong" for not really caring to argue the matter.

It's my feedback to ZOS. It doesn't require your agreement. If I wanted to debate the matter, I'd entitled it [debate].

Or, you can just keep on slamming, I understand that's kind of how game forums work these days (which is why I'm not active but to provide feedback anymore, in fact).

Without trying to be rude, I think you're the one being a bit confused here...there is a feedback option ingame that sends you feedback to Zenimax(whether or not they read it is another story). This here is a FORUM. What you post is open for discussion and will be discussed. There will be people who agree or disagree with the matter and that's just how the world is, it doesn't mean that they're here to troll.

I'm also a bit confused by the delve/dolmen argument. Delve/dolmen bosses tend to die(especially dolmen ones because they get zerged down hard usually) in 2-5 seconds even in non optimized equipment and I don't think any of them have any mechanics beyond a couple aoes you can safely stand in(if they do, I've never experienced them even on low level characters). If you think it is "getting it right", I believe that's the pattern normal dungeons follow as well, just get 16k+ health and you will be able to safely stand in all the aoes and just burn everything down like in a delve/dolmen.

If you're talking about more interesting mechanics...I think ZOS is hit or miss on challenging mechanics, but I think a large part of "miss" is to be blamed on community tbh because people clearly hate mechanics more complicated than "make 1 step to get out of red", as clearly indicated by, for example, SotH expansion. I'm not sure if you've run SotH dungeons but I'd advise you try them if you haven't - they have some very interesting mechanics within.

For example on last CoS boss you get banished into a dark maze and you need to find your way out of it without getting killed by mobs there. Furthermore, you need a light in order to move in the dark which you should get from killing an atronach ad before getting banished(if you didn't do that, there's an option to light braziers inside the maze and move between them...doesn't work very well in vet mode) - one person carries the light the other(s) stay inside the light. In vet mode it's 2 people per a maze, on normal all 4 get sent into the same maze. She(the boss) also does a move where she climbs up on the ceiling and you gotta stop moving then, then dodge as soon as she starts dropping down.

In RoM there's a boss who spits green poison on the ground and becomes invulnerable, after which someone has to carry the poison to water geyser in order to cleanse it and make boss attackable again. Tricky part is once picked up poison disables all your skills, eats all your stamina and starts snaring you down. When you get snared down too much, you get the option to shake it off and then someone else can pick it up and finish carrying. There's also another boss where certain targeted person has to stand between boss and a caster ad so the boss' charge kills the ad(who is otherwise unkillable and does heaps of damage). Then there's the last boss which puts a hallucination on someone that disables all their skills until they kill a certain statue - but hallucinating person cannot see which statue of like 10 he must kill, other people need to show him(and keep him up while he kills it). She also occasionally summons a totem that drains people's resources and must be killed asap, but the main trick to it is the totem spawns near the person furthest from the group so it is vital everyone stays together at all times(or relatively close to each other, at least).

This kind of mechanics I find a lot more interesting and fun than simple "step out of red" or "pull 40k dps or die", and if that's the kind of thing you meant then we're in agreement there

Kanar

OP wants an easier-than-easy difficulty and blames the boss mechanics for being too difficult and too easy at the same time. What an fing troll.

And what's up with hating on dancing?

Ekadzati

"This kind of mechanics I find a lot more interesting and fun than simple "step out of red" or "pull 40k dps or die", and if that's the kind of thing you meant then we're in agreement there " - Correct.

Shame it took ya all them words to get to that last paragraph, though.

@Kanar (whatever, dude.)

Magdalina

Ekadzati wrote: »

"This kind of mechanics I find a lot more interesting and fun than simple "step out of red" or "pull 40k dps or die", and if that's the kind of thing you meant then we're in agreement there " - Correct.

If that's the case then I'd actually advise you to join the (somewhat) mini maxing crowd and get into running vet dlc dungeons and vet trials, because this is where you get to see those more interesting mechanics MA is also pretty full of those on vet.

It seems ZOS has finally settled on more challenging content being mechanics based rather than pure dps race and the rest of the game(even including non dlc vet dungeons, sadly) is like whatever, heavy attack stuff to death and be done with it. To be fair, after looking at some of these forums it's almost understandable - people complain about COS/ROM difficulty on NORMAL mode even because there're mechanics there that are more complicated than stepping out of red and actually require teamwork, group positioning etc.

I really doubt they ever will be adding any semblance of complicated mechanics to anything that isn't a vet trial/vet dlc dungeon again.

Ekadzati

Well, it's made things simple enough for me in the game; I just don't go underground anymore unless it's a delve. I'm not missing "monster sets" or even "bis" and it's nice not to have to!

Eyesinthedrk

It's a game and will always have pre programmed mechanics. It will always be about where to stand, when to block, and how hard you can burn. Your suggestion just makes 3 different versions of where to stand, when to block, when to burn. But doesn't really change anything.

The only way to have a more dynamic experience would be to either change the fights every week or to hire gamers to fight against you.

Ekadzati

I disagree that MMO games must be permanently confined to these mechanics, but you'll get no argument that these are the 'tried and true' to which those who enjoy Skinner Boxes respond.

I'd like to see more options for augmented play (e.g., hirelings) now that elements of AI are becoming cost-efficient on the whole. If designed properly, there should be no competitive angst between "casual"/"hardcore" or any other old, tired, gaming dichotomy.

/tips hat