Minotaur Society vs. Orc Tribes

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Speculation source here:

...though once thought to be intelligent. They are social creatures, often appearing in groups numbering twenty or more. The largest male dominates this clan structure, and seems to have breeding rights with all females of reproductive age. Younger males will often challenge the older, dominant males in a fight to the death. Their horns locked, the two minotaurs will wrestle until one can no longer continue. This often....

This bears a strong similarity to how Orc tribes are usually set up, with only the chief allowed to have wives and challengers taking over the tribe. So! Questions for debate:

Is this coincidental? Possibly some throwback to the days of Ayleid slavery (reminder that Minotaurs are supposed to be descended from the ex-slave St. Alessia, and we know of at least one case of an Orc being enslaved)? Were the Orcs and Minotaurs allies at one point and the practice was picked up by one from the other? Was polygamy the original norm for everybody, and monogamy in many of the other cultures something that developed later?

MythicEmperor

What is certain is that both are uncivilized beasts. This is why Nirn needs the superior culture of the Dunmer to educate and subjugate.

TheNuminous1

MythicEmperor wrote: »

What is certain is that both are uncivilized beasts. This is why Nirn needs the superior culture of the Dunmer to educate and subjugate.

superiority? following the velothi heratic accross the map? allowing your entire people to be cursed by a daedric prince. worshipping false gods that tricked said peoples and were the cause of the curse.

you abandoned the true ways of the ancestors. fled aedric light for a legacy of soot, mold, and lava.

starkerealm

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

What is certain is that both are uncivilized beasts. This is why Nirn needs the superior culture of the Dunmer to educate and subjugate.

superiority? following the velothi heratic accross the map? allowing your entire people to be cursed by a daedric prince. worshipping false gods that tricked said peoples and were the cause of the curse.

you abandoned the true ways of the ancestors. fled aedric light for a legacy of soot, mold, and lava.

That's just Mythic, he's like that. He thinks that having ones entire race being bamboozled into founding a religion by a trio of murderous psychopaths is a positive trait.

starkerealm

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Is this coincidental?

Probably.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Possibly some throwback to the days of Ayleid slavery (reminder that Minotaurs are supposed to be descended from the ex-slave St. Alessia, and we know of at least one case of an Orc being enslaved)?

That's pretty thin. Especially given that the humans don't engage in that social structure on Tamriel. (With the possible exception of a few harems, anyway.)

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Were the Orcs and Minotaurs allies at one point and the practice was picked up by one from the other?

Again, seems unlikely. It's like saying, "Were, the Ancient Nords and Altmer allies, because there was at least one really great Nordic mage?"

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Was polygamy the original norm for everybody, and monogamy in many of the other cultures something that developed later?

We're talking in ESO, or in real life, or what?

I mean, if you want to talk about rulers nailing someone on the side, okay. Fine. That happens. It's where we get Martin, so far as that goes. If you want to point to isolated instances of someone like Headman Bhosek keeping a Harem... sure, yeah. But that doesn't make it the default state.

The Minotaur thing is probably a cows/bull reference. The Orc thing might be. Or it could have been a holdover to explain why you're fighting all these male orc monsters, and not seeing any female ones while running around dungeons in Daggerfall. (I honestly can't remember encountering any in that game, so it might not have worked that way, but still.)

MythicEmperor

starkerealm wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

What is certain is that both are uncivilized beasts. This is why Nirn needs the superior culture of the Dunmer to educate and subjugate.

superiority? following the velothi heratic accross the map? allowing your entire people to be cursed by a daedric prince. worshipping false gods that tricked said peoples and were the cause of the curse.

you abandoned the true ways of the ancestors. fled aedric light for a legacy of soot, mold, and lava.

That's just Mythic, he's like that. He thinks that having ones entire race being bamboozled into founding a religion by a trio of murderous psychopaths is a positive trait.

N'wahs merely lack the intellectual capacity to understand the complex nature of the Dunmer

Beginning with Numinous's statement, what heretic? We followed a discerning prophet, and our gray skin is a blessing, not a curse. However you view our gods, the Tribunal is an inspiring source of wisdom and insight. Reading the sermons of Vivec makes this clear, but that is expected of a being who has achieved CHIM. SEHT's machinations and intellectual wonders continue to surpass the ideas of the greatest scholars, and AYEM... Well, she clearly is the weak link in the trio.

The true way? This statement wreaks of bias. The Altmer are misguided. They think the Aedra actually care for them... How petty. Our gods are tangible, unlike the seemingly lifeless Aedra. Even once the Dunmer begin to worship the Reclamations, the Daedric spheres of power are far more apparent than those of the Aedra who only reveal their presence in miniscule blessings and on very rare occasions (The Oblivion Crisis, for example).

Now, with Stark's argument. Statements against the Tribunal mean little to a Telvanni. We isolate ourselves from the fanatics of House Indoril, and the Temple beneath Sadrith Mora is miniscule. The differences between the Dunmer houses are almost racial differences, and therefore generalized arguments bear little weight except towards the House the generalization originated in. At least attack our mushroom towers or something characteristic of House Telvanni

starkerealm

MythicEmperor wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

That's just Mythic, he's like that. He thinks that having ones entire race being bamboozled into founding a religion by a trio of murderous psychopaths is a positive trait.

N'wahs merely lack the intellectual capacity to understand the complex nature of the Dunmer

Case in point.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Beginning with Numinous's statement, what heretic?

When you go to the literal meaning of the word, a heretic is, literally, "one who chooses for themselves."

MythicEmperor wrote: »

We followed a discerning prophet...

Ah, I understand. The Dunmer are such sheep, they cannot actually be heretics, because they need someone to follow.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Reading the sermons of Vivec makes this clear, but that is expected of a being who has achieved CHIM.

For reference, when you unpack the sermons, it turns out Vivec has either gotten access to the Creation Kit or the console. It's not entirely clear which. Or, wants to have access to those things but doesn't, and is bragging about how awesome he is anyway.

EDIT: To be fair: when you unpack the sermons, it turns out that either Vivec or Michael Kirkbride is not nearly as clever as they think. (Though, in this case, I'm far more willing to foist that on Vivec.) There's a kind of grasping quality, of someone trying to sound far more profound than they actually are. Given this saturates all of Vivec's writing and nearly all of his dialog, I'm inclined to believe that's an intentional part of his character, which is a really nice touch. This is a guy who became a god through mundane means, and is trying to feign enlightenment. So, the result is actually pretty memorable.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

SEHT's machinations and intellectual wonders continue to surpass the ideas of the greatest scholars, and AYEM... Well, she clearly is the weak link in the trio.

Yeah, but she still spent time licking the heart of an actual god, so, that counts for something, apparently.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

The true way?

Yeah, the one that doesn't end with half your homeland melting, and the other half overrun with unusually angry, ambulatory luggage.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

The Altmer are misguided. They think the Aedra actually care for them... How petty.

Well, aside from the luggage comment, Mythic and I kinda agree on something. This is... disconcerting.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Our gods are tangible, unlike the seemingly lifeless Aedra.

To be fair, there's probably a legitimate discussion to be had on the concept of divinity, and manifestation as an incentive for belief.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Even once the Dunmer begin to worship the Reclamations, the Daedric spheres of power are far more apparent than those of the Aedra who only reveal their presence in miniscule blessings and on very rare occasions (The Oblivion Crisis, for example).

Which is, completely hilarious, when you remember the Tribunal derive their power from tapping Lorkhan's heart on a semi-regular basis. ESO implies that it's annual, though it's probably somewhat less frequent than that.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

Now, with Stark's argument. Statements against the Tribunal mean little to a Telvanni.

At last we understand the true issue with the Telvanni. No matter how hard they try, they just can't spell a name.

I am still kinda irked that my ID's capitalization was stripped by the beta tag, and even after I removed it, there's still no capitalization. But, life goes on.

ChibchanLawyer

I don't know about any of that Dunmer culture nonsense, all I know is that any society that accepts slavery is beneath any 'beastfolk' tribe, specially if such slavery is oriented towards Argonians.

Now then, to stay in topic, I would explain the similarities in Orc-Minotaur culture lorewise by stating that Orcish culture revolves around strenght and force, they could have adopted practices from creatures that they considered worthy, such as the mighty minotaur.

Korah_Eaglecry

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Speculation source here:

...though once thought to be intelligent. They are social creatures, often appearing in groups numbering twenty or more. The largest male dominates this clan structure, and seems to have breeding rights with all females of reproductive age. Younger males will often challenge the older, dominant males in a fight to the death. Their horns locked, the two minotaurs will wrestle until one can no longer continue. This often....

This bears a strong similarity to how Orc tribes are usually set up, with only the chief allowed to have wives and challengers taking over the tribe. So! Questions for debate:

Is this coincidental? Possibly some throwback to the days of Ayleid slavery (reminder that Minotaurs are supposed to be descended from the ex-slave St. Alessia, and we know of at least one case of an Orc being enslaved)? Were the Orcs and Minotaurs allies at one point and the practice was picked up by one from the other? Was polygamy the original norm for everybody, and monogamy in many of the other cultures something that developed later?

Its likely coincidence. When you live in a more rugged and dangerous environment like both Orcs and Minotaurs do. Things like strength and dominance become extremely appealing to those around these individuals that seem to embody those types of traits. The end result is cultures being built up around authoritarianism and male dominated aspects. Frailness and meekness is seen as weak and in nature is often removed from the genepool, where strength and dominating behavior seems to not only survive but reproduce.

Not every culture need be attached or influenced by another to have similarities. Especially when youre dealing with cultures that have risen up due to similar circumstances.