Sorc kill counts

NyassaV

So... I so bloody tired of sorcs getting credit for my kills because of their excute... Like, fighting the emperor and then a sorc rolls in and executes. It's really annoying. I guess this is a nerf sorc thread but also not? I could care less about magic sorcs being very powerful right now. I'm just tired of the kill stealing

WaltherCarraway

Follow by few 'lol another nerf sorc' victim card posts,

Apathy wins.

Judas Helviaryn

Kill stealing is an issue?

s7732425ub17_ESO

Kill faster?

Slick_007

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Kill faster?

but the the sorc would appear faster and still get the kill. its a vicious cycle

Morgul667

NyassaV

Why don't need to change the execute. Not saying we shouldn't but we don't have too. If ZoS made adjustments to who gets credit for a kill and how, it would solve the issue

FriedEggSandwich

Slot an execute.

NyassaV

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Slot an execute.

Mu excute just triggers their's

Thogard

Sorc execute needs a range adjustment. I don't mind its strength, but it bugs me that it can be applied from so far away to steal a kill.

geonsocal

submit - altmer/breton mag sorc or go home...

ArchMikem

Theres no such thing as kill stealing when its a Team based multiplayer.

Feanor

Thogard wrote: »

Sorc execute needs a range adjustment. I don't mind its strength, but it bugs me that it can be applied from so far away to steal a kill.

The 28m range is nothing exclusive to Wrath or Fury. See Impale or Radiant Destruction for comparison.

Mojomonkeyman

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Slot an execute.

Have you ever played BGs? I ususally value your input but that was totally off. OP is completely right, the way sorc executes work right now does in fact allow them to steal kills en masse. mWardens and mDKs being the losers here (because they have no execute), mSorcs will steal the kills you worked your behind off every single time, which will impact your score negatively.

@ArchMikem There is no such thing as team based when all that is accounted for on ladder is personal scoring. ZOS has set incentives which create an environment where mSorcs execute is indeed overperforming. So either ZOS changes incentives (team ladder in addition to personal one, change of nscoring mechanics, etc...) or mSorc execute, because the current situation is not fair to other setups.

Regards

Feanor

@Mojomonkeyman

The only difference is that you can put it on multiple targets because it applies with that 4 second execute window. That's not an issue of range but of how the execute mechanic works. Sorcs can be king of Deathmatch, yes. They are not in the other game modes.

Mojomonkeyman

Feanor wrote: »

@Mojomonkeyman

The only difference is that you can put it on multiple targets because it applies with that 4 second execute window. That's not an issue of range but of how the execute mechanic works. Sorcs can be king of Deathmatch, yes. They are not in the other game modes.

Exactly, and deathmatch is the only BG that is actually centered around fighting, actually the only one I really care about (amongst many other players). Scoring and class mechanics should create a fair environment for everyone.

If an entire game mode's balance is screwed due to a single class skill overperforming within the current ruleset - then the logical solution would be to finetune the ruleset or the class mechanic to make it a fair environment again.

I really don't see how any sorc could be argueing with that. Most sorcs I know who get pugged with me into deathmatch already apologize before the game starts and suggest to take fury off - because they don't want their score to represent a broken kill scoring mechanic instead of their performance as a player.

Feanor

I don't argue your point. Fury is a really strong execute. I don't think we should start finetuning class abilities on the premise that Deathmatch is the only valid game mode though. If you start on that road, then I would like Jesus Beam and Cliff Racer "finetuned" as well along with Talons, Fossilize and Take Flight. Oh and Soul Assault if we're already at it.

FriedEggSandwich

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Slot an execute.

Have you ever played BGs? I ususally value your input but that was totally off. OP is completely right, the way sorc executes work right now does in fact allow them to steal kills en masse. mWardens and mDKs being the losers here (because they have no execute), mSorcs will steal the kills you worked your behind off every single time, which will impact your score negatively.

@ArchMikem There is no such thing as team based when all that is accounted for on ladder is personal scoring. ZOS has set incentives which create an environment where mSorcs execute is indeed overperforming. So either ZOS changes incentives (team ladder in addition to personal one, change of nscoring mechanics, etc...) or mSorc execute, because the current situation is not fair to other setups.

Regards

No I haven't. I've just returned to the game after a 4 month break. I wasn't aware the op was talking about battlegrounds; their biggest concern seems to be their k/d. If I had taken it more seriously I wouldn't have been so flippant. From what you have said it seems to be a scoring issue rather than a sorc execute problem. I won't say any more because I am clueless about BG.

Mojomonkeyman

Feanor wrote: »

I don't argue your point. Fury is a really strong execute. I don't think we should start finetuning class abilities on the premise that Deathmatch is the only valid game mode though. If you start on that road, then I would like Jesus Beam and Cliff Racer "finetuned" as well along with Talons, Fossilize and Take Flight. Oh and Soul Assault if we're already at it.

I agree on most of those skills that need to be monitored. That doesn't change the fact that none of those is influencing game modes as much as fury is impacting deathmatch.

And it also doesn't change the fact that it is you opening up the endless slope argument - I was open for any solution or discussion about making a fairer envrionment focusing on the two pillars of this discussion 1) sorc execute 2) deathmatch.

Every gamemode should be balanced to create a fair environment for any setup participating. No question about that. But we are discussing a very specific problematic in here, right? I think it would lead to better outcomes if we would discuss other problematic mechanics in seperate threads?!

Edit: And yes, I agree, scoring mechanic would be also the first thing I'd look at to fintune in order to optimize balance in deathmatch

Mojomonkeyman

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Slot an execute.

Have you ever played BGs? I ususally value your input but that was totally off. OP is completely right, the way sorc executes work right now does in fact allow them to steal kills en masse. mWardens and mDKs being the losers here (because they have no execute), mSorcs will steal the kills you worked your behind off every single time, which will impact your score negatively.

@ArchMikem There is no such thing as team based when all that is accounted for on ladder is personal scoring. ZOS has set incentives which create an environment where mSorcs execute is indeed overperforming. So either ZOS changes incentives (team ladder in addition to personal one, change of nscoring mechanics, etc...) or mSorc execute, because the current situation is not fair to other setups.

Regards

No I haven't. I've just returned to the game after a 4 month break. I wasn't aware the op was talking about battlegrounds; their biggest concern seems to be their k/d. If I had taken it more seriously I wouldn't have been so flippant. From what you have said it seems to be a scoring issue rather than a sorc execute problem. I won't say any more because I am clueless about BG.

No worries, it's all good. Deathmatch centers entirely around K/D ratio (plus assists and heals), so theres nothing wrong with people focusing on those parameters when pointing out issues. It's the logical thing to do, since ladders are only personal score, not team score based.

Feanor

@Mojomonkeyman

You've been around long enough to know how these things work, Mojo. The ability gets changed that the most people whine about. So I guess you'd have a pretty good shot at getting a lot of followers for a Fury change because it's still the - inaccurate, but prevalent - notion in these forums that Sorc must be somehow "OP".

I'm not optimistic the same can be said about any of the abilities above. What I want to avoid is that Sorc has the one ability that gives an edge in that mode removed while everything else stays the same. You can change these things only on a grand scale.

Mojomonkeyman

Feanor wrote: »

@Mojomonkeyman

You've been around long enough to know how these things work, Mojo. The ability gets changed that the most people whine about. So I guess you'd have a pretty good shot at getting a lot of followers for a Fury change because it's still the - inaccurate, but prevalent - notion in these forums that Sorc must be somehow "OP".

I'm not optimistic the same can be said about any of the abilities above. What I want to avoid is that Sorc has the one ability that gives an edge in that mode removed while everything else stays the same. You can change these things only on a grand scale.

Yeah, I mean I have played sorc long enough to know that msorc has a lot of shortcomings, in BGs in particular. For example: I wouldnt want to be a sorc when going up against the new shieldbreaker-knightslayer trend. Can't even outheal that on mWarden when on shield build. Its literally a hardcounter to the sorc class that has no place in a good pvp game.

But, back on point, we should be allowed to discuss overperforming aspects as well when they have huge impact on the playing experience of anyone not being a mSorc.

Biro123

It just needs to change to trigger when health drops to 50% (instead of 20%) - cos then it won't instantly kill when it goes off - and then it just comes down to an even contest around who can spam their execute the fastest.

Cos the kill-blow is all that matters, right?

Thogard

Feanor wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sorc execute needs a range adjustment. I don't mind its strength, but it bugs me that it can be applied from so far away to steal a kill.

The 28m range is nothing exclusive to Wrath or Fury. See Impale or Radiant Destruction for comparison.

I really wouldn't compare mage's wrath to Jesus beam... I have both a mag sorc and a magplar and the executes are not in the same league.

Decreasing the range will not hurt a sorc's 1v1 ability and it won't hurt our 4v4 much either.

It'll just hurt our ability to kill steal.

Besides we'll still have implosion..

Feanor

@Thogard

2 Fury's won't kill you when you're around 50% HP. Try the same with 2 RDs.

red_emu

Learn2Sorc ^^

Thogard

Feanor wrote: »

@Thogard

2 Fury's won't kill you when you're around 50% HP. Try the same with 2 RDs.

The only person 2 RDs in a row will kill when targeted at an enemy with 50% health is the magplar casting it. Doing that would forego all heals, blocks, dodgerolls, and damage shields for 5 seconds while doing so.

But a sorc can do quite a lot more in those five seconds than just cast two mage's wraths. One example would be to cast a dmg shield and then soul assault ...

And that's not factoring in the fact that 1. RD is bashable, and 2. Mage wrath has some sick AOE dmg

GaunterODim

In my opinion, the only problem with the sorc execute is that in can be put on anyone before the target gets to low health and it has that 4 seconds window to bring the target (or to let it be brought) to 20% for it to die.
Nightblade execute for example hits like a wet noodle if the target is (or gets healed before the hit lands) above 25%.
So it is much more reactive than the sorcs execute because you can only use it when the target has already been weakened instead of putting it on the target before the burst comes.

Thogard

GaunterODim wrote: »

In my opinion, the only problem with the sorc execute is that in can be put on anyone before the target gets to low health and it has that 4 seconds window to bring the target (or to let it be brought) to 20% for it to die.
Nightblade execute for example hits like a wet noodle if the target is (or gets healed before the hit lands) above 25%.
So it is much more reactive than the sorcs execute because you can only use it when the target has already been weakened instead of putting it on the target before the burst comes.

Yeah but the sorc execute really doesnt do any significant damage at all if the target stays above 20%. Sorcs need a way to bring people down by lining up burst and the 4s delay on mage's wrath is fair.

Sorc execute can best be thought of as a 20% health debuff... best way to counter it is to stay above 20%.... which is a lot easier than it sounds when fighting a sorc. Just view 20% as the new 0, 60% as the new 50%, etc... The execute is all or nothing... It's not gradual, so making that change would really ruin a sorc's ability to kill things.

I wouldn't mind if it can only be triggered by the sorc tho... for instance, if it only goes off if the dmg that brought the target below 20% comes from the sorc... (or a hit from the sorc while target is below 20%)

Nothing worse than spamming a 2h reverse slice only to have that end up procing mage's wrath for the sorc, giving another team the killing blow

Biro123

Thogard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sorc execute needs a range adjustment. I don't mind its strength, but it bugs me that it can be applied from so far away to steal a kill.

The 28m range is nothing exclusive to Wrath or Fury. See Impale or Radiant Destruction for comparison.

I really wouldn't compare mage's wrath to Jesus beam... I have both a mag sorc and a magplar and the executes are not in the same league.

Decreasing the range will not hurt a sorc's 1v1 ability and it won't hurt our 4v4 much either.

It'll just hurt our ability to kill steal.

Besides we'll still have implosion..

Decreasing range would simply destroy DW sorcs in open-world.

Feanor

Maybe just increase the value of assists for Deathmatches. I think that would be best without changing skills significantly.