Templar Vampires are an MMO equivalent of dividing by 0

ThePrinceOfBargains

Templar Jesus magic isn't very well explained as far as lore goes, and some people think the whole "Aedric" thing is a sham. Regardless, the concept of Templar Vampires is quite contradictory no matter what way you slice it. I laugh at the absurdity of it the same way I do at a "Light Side Sith."

Personally, I think they should do something like what DCUO does with their Celestial power. With weapon attacks, the heroes are textured gold and white, while the villains are textured black and purple. Templar attacks (or hell, attacks from any class minus NB) with vampires could be textured black & red, like something similar to the attacks daedra sometimes use. I don't know if this would be possible or not, but anything to give the abilities a more corrupt feel to them would be cool.

BrianDavion

except it's perfectly easy to rationalize the templar as a combo of destruction magic and restoration magic. Vampire templars work just fine so long as you realize in TES lore there is no such thing as "divine magic"

starkerealm

*Watches their vampire Templar explode*

Though, yeah, having alternate color skins for abilities would be pretty cool. Or even what Champions Online had, where (if you were a Gold member) you could recolor any ability you wanted.

SirAndy

Anyone referring to lore while arguing game mechanics needs to re-evaluate their understanding of how lore is created.

Riptide

As an actual Knight Templar (insofar as they exist now, which is within the Scottish Rite and York Rite of Freemasonry), a lot of the wackadoos that come through our doors reckon we are vampires anyway. Or werewolves, or the illuminati, or whatever

The word has come to mean "cleric" or something like it in this game. Lots of stuff uses the name in fiction for tangential things, Starcraft etc etc. As there is no Jesus in this game, I think is pretty clear that it is not intended to follow Earth history or legends.

And fact is that much of what has made its way into our current day understanding of Templars is, in fact, legend. So the whole thing is a moving target best not split hairs over

LMar

Our skills are various disciplines that anyone can be trained to do. Vampire, werewolf or not. There's various in game books which actually explain this too. Same for DK magic. There's various in game discourses which argue if it is draconic in nature or just simple destruction and alteration magic

ThePrinceOfBargains

BrianDavion wrote: »

except it's perfectly easy to rationalize the templar as a combo of destruction magic and restoration magic. Vampire templars work just fine so long as you realize in TES lore there is no such thing as "divine magic"

Even without it being divine, the very nature of this specific magic is anti-vampire.

"These traveling knights call upon the power of light and the burning sun"

It'd be like Superman using kryptonite-powered heat vision.

Subversus

TheMaster wrote: »

I laugh at the absurdity of it the same way I do at a "Light Side Sith.

I stopped reading here. Guy is obviously either totally oblivious when it comes to Star Wars lore or is totally ignorant regarding light side siths. KOTOR and SWTOR as well as Clone Wars and even Rebels go relatively deep into the subject.

Dislike it all you want, it doesn't make it any more lore unfriendly. Same goes with Templar vampires, dislike it all you want, it is still possible. Ignorance is bliss to a certain extent.

ThePrinceOfBargains

Subversus wrote: »

TheMaster wrote: »

I laugh at the absurdity of it the same way I do at a "Light Side Sith.

I stopped reading here. Guy is obviously either totally oblivious when it comes to Star Wars lore or is totally ignorant regarding light side siths.

The concept is contradictory and pointless. A light side Sith is not exploring the ways of the dark side. Therefore, he is not embracing the freedom of the Sith and practicing all aspects of the force. Why even call himself Sith? He might as well be a Jedi.

Cadbury

Celestial in DCUO never made sense either, tbh.

starkerealm

Cadbury wrote: »

Celestial in DCUO never made sense either, tbh.

Which scampers around the point that DCUO never made sense. I mean, Luthor is the Meta mentor, not the Tech mentor? What the snot?

Rouven

LMar wrote: »

Our skills are various disciplines that anyone can be trained to do. Vampire werewolf or not. There's various in game books which actually explain this too. Same for DK magic. There's various in game discourses which argue if it is draconic in nature or just simple destruction and alteration magic

Vampire werewolf cross infection confirmed! Think really really bleached fur.

What is this sith you are talking about? A new skooma strain?

Cadbury

starkerealm wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

Celestial in DCUO never made sense either, tbh.

Which scampers around the point that DCUO never made sense. I mean, Luthor is the Meta mentor, not the Tech mentor? What the snot?

I'll give him a pass because he (imo) is the real hero.He basically saved Earth.

Also, Joker is best Mentor

starkerealm

Rouven wrote: »

LMar wrote: »

Our skills are various disciplines that anyone can be trained to do. Vampire werewolf or not. There's various in game books which actually explain this too. Same for DK magic. There's various in game discourses which argue if it is draconic in nature or just simple destruction and alteration magic

Vampire werewolf cross infection confirmed! Think really really bleached fur.

What is this sith you are talking about? A new skooma strain?

I saw a Lycanthropic vampire in Bangkorai a few years ago. Normal looking wolf, but turned into an escaped Hot Topic victim when he reverted.

Seriously, there used to be a bug, where if you got bitten by a player, you could start the quest, but let your timer run out, then get infected by the other flavor, complete their quest, come back, complete the first one, and poof undead werewolf. (There was a specific order you had to do everything in, as I recall.)

This was patched out before Tamriel Unlimited, and I think the last hybrids were put down sometime in mid-2016.

Alaztor91

I kinda agree with the OP, there is even a templar skill morph called Vampire's Bane lol

starkerealm

Cadbury wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Cadbury wrote: »

Celestial in DCUO never made sense either, tbh.

Which scampers around the point that DCUO never made sense. I mean, Luthor is the Meta mentor, not the Tech mentor? What the snot?

I'll give him a pass because he (imo) is the real hero.He basically saved Earth.

Also, Joker is best Mentor

I still love, Nervous-Breakdown Batman. "Yeah, uh... sure... okay kid, that's great, just go fight Bane." Though Joker's still fantastic for Mark Hamil's voice acting.

LMar

Rouven wrote: »

LMar wrote: »

Our skills are various disciplines that anyone can be trained to do. Vampire werewolf or not. There's various in game books which actually explain this too. Same for DK magic. There's various in game discourses which argue if it is draconic in nature or just simple destruction and alteration magic

Vampire werewolf cross infection confirmed! Think really really bleached fur.

What is this sith you are talking about? A new skooma strain?

Commas are really important! I went back to add one!

Kode

Changing the appearance of abilities for lore would have an affect on pvp and gameplay. Skill animations and effects have specific appearances that act as a telegraph for players to know what is happening and therefore be able to respond or counter play. I rely on knowing what a skill looks like and wouldn't appreciate it if skills changed because it makes it more interesting for lore.

I understand it is a game with a theme, but at a certain point there are consequences to chasing lore, in this case they come at the expense of playability.

Maybe ZoS will release a book that will help lore minded players reason Templar Vampires... maybe they already have, go searching for the community and let us know what you find.

MrBetadine

I think i've seen something called 'Lord Warden's Templar' before.....

KRBC

Riptide wrote: »

As an actual Knight Templar (insofar as they exist now, which is within the Scottish Rite and York Rite of Freemasonry), a lot of the wackadoos that come through our doors reckon we are vampires anyway. Or werewolves, or the illuminati, or whatever

The word has come to mean "cleric" or something like it in this game. Lots of stuff uses the name in fiction for tangential things, Starcraft etc etc. As there is no Jesus in this game, I think is pretty clear that it is not intended to follow Earth history or legends.

And fact is that much of what has made its way into our current day understanding of Templars is, in fact, legend. So the whole thing is a moving target best not split hairs over

So your in the illuminati, when are you guys gonna blow up the world?

Riptide

Riptide wrote: »

So your in the illuminati, when are you guys gonna blow up the world?

If you attend one of our pancake breakfast fundraisers for a little scholarship or whatever and sit and really look around the room, theres only about half of us could manage to blow up a good sized balloon

Rainraven

Give my templar a skill that grants major expedition and she'd drop vampirism that day. I've never felt comfortable with her as a vamp, I'd rather she hunt the undead than be one. But sacrifices have been made.

Literal sacrifices. With the horrible screaming and the long-distance blood pull.

starkerealm

Rainraven wrote: »

Give my templar a skill that grants major expedition and she'd drop vampirism that day. I've never felt comfortable with her as a vamp, I'd rather she hunt the undead than be one. But sacrifices have been made.

Literal sacrifices. With the horrible screaming and the long-distance blood pull.

Well, I mean, it's not like bandits or peasants are real people, right?

Feanor

So what's the problem with Templar vampires exactly? I didn't get the OP other than he wants other colors for the effects. As for lore, it's perfectly easy to picture knights with aedric powers that have been corrupted to the darker side. It's an ancient topic, the antagonism between good and evil, and being seduced to power. Lucifer is the archetype of that story. Sauron would be another if you look in the realm of fantasy.

Ackwalan

Riptide wrote: »

As an actual Knight Templar (insofar as they exist now, which is within the Scottish Rite and York Rite of Freemasonry), a lot of the wackadoos that come through our doors reckon we are vampires anyway. Or werewolves, or the illuminati, or whatever

The word has come to mean "cleric" or something like it in this game. Lots of stuff uses the name in fiction for tangential things, Starcraft etc etc. As there is no Jesus in this game, I think is pretty clear that it is not intended to follow Earth history or legends.

And fact is that much of what has made its way into our current day understanding of Templars is, in fact, legend. So the whole thing is a moving target best not split hairs over

That is exactly what a illuminati vampire would say. I see who you really are.

ThePrinceOfBargains

Feanor wrote: »

So what's the problem with Templar vampires exactly? I didn't get the OP other than he wants other colors for the effects. As for lore, it's perfectly easy to picture knights with aedric powers that have been corrupted to the darker side. It's an ancient topic, the antagonism between good and evil, and being seduced to power. Lucifer is the archetype of that story. Sauron would be another if you look in the realm of fantasy.

The problem is not the act of Templars becoming vampires itself. It's the fact that they continue to use these abilities that are literally like kryptonite to them. Templar power comes from light and the sun. I suggested changing the colors for vampires in order to create a feeling of corruption. In turn, they could add this to the lore, saying their power is corrupted and instead comes from like the "dark side of the moon" or something.

starkerealm

Feanor wrote: »

So what's the problem with Templar vampires exactly? I didn't get the OP other than he wants other colors for the effects. As for lore, it's perfectly easy to picture knights with aedric powers that have been corrupted to the darker side. It's an ancient topic, the antagonism between good and evil, and being seduced to power. Lucifer is the archetype of that story. Sauron would be another if you look in the realm of fantasy.

The original poster appears to be working off the idea that templars are effectively D&D paladins. Which, okay, he's not wrong. And as a result they must be good. No... This is Elder Scrolls. While good and evil certainly exist as philisophical concepts, they're not enforced, the way D&D uses those concepts. And a corrupt or fanatical Templar is just as likely to exist as a genuinely virtuous one.

Just like vampires are, nominally evil, but could still be a devout servant of the Divines.

It's also worth remembering that the Templars practice a distinct magical school. They don't forget how that works, or lose access to it, if they transgress the way divine casters in D&D do.

That said, it would be pretty cool if there were alternate Templar classes that triggered if you were a Vampire or Werewolf. Like, "Dark Templar," or "Feral Templar," which completely replace the class abilities and passives. I mean, it would be a lot of work, but, still, cool. To be fair, the same could be said of the other classes as well.

Feanor

I don't see the problem. In ESO vampires don't crumble to dust when the sun goes up. Verandis and Gwendis come to mind as well as a lot of Bloodfiend mobs in the open daylight.

ThePrinceOfBargains

Axoinus

I don`t know, but "Vamplar" has a nice ring to it.

starkerealm

TheMaster wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

So what's the problem with Templar vampires exactly? I didn't get the OP other than he wants other colors for the effects. As for lore, it's perfectly easy to picture knights with aedric powers that have been corrupted to the darker side. It's an ancient topic, the antagonism between good and evil, and being seduced to power. Lucifer is the archetype of that story. Sauron would be another if you look in the realm of fantasy.

The problem is not the act of Templars becoming vampires itself. It's the fact that they continue to use these abilities that are literally like kryptonite to them. Templar power comes from light and the sun. I suggested changing the colors for vampires in order to create a feeling of corruption. In turn, they could add this to the lore, saying their power is corrupted and instead comes from like the "dark side of the moon" or something.

That's not, completely, accurate though. Templars use some kind of "light" magic. It's worth knowing that the Alyieds actually viewed light as a basic elemental power, sort of like lightning, fire, or frost in the 3rd era magical schools. In particular, they viewed fire as a weakened and corrupted version of light.

In that context, the connection between light and the fire damage that some Templar abilities deal should make a little more sense. They brand the dawn's wrath line as coming from the sun, but in reality it's just another flavor of magic, and not that different from a Vampiric Dragon Knight.

And, yes, the game is already quite willing to let you handle abilities that would horrifically kill you if you accidentally shot yourself in the foot, for example silver bolts, or flame whip. So, really chucking a ball of brilliant golden light at someone isn't that different.