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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8235739/
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8235739/
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Frost Staff
Metafae
✭✭✭✭✭
It is time we reconsider how the Frost Staff is used in this game.
Two years ago I created a magic Nightblade with the idea of it being a Frost Mage, it didn't go so well. Now we have a class in the game that is meant to be a true Frost Mage, one to be in line with the Sorcerer's Storm Mage and the Dragon Knight's Fire Mage but the Frost Staff just isn't a DPS tool anymore.
Lets take a look at Stamina DPS and their weapon choices:
Dual Wielding comes in four flavors, Crit, Damage, Bleed and Penetration.
Two Handed comes in three flavors, Damage, Bleed and Penetration.
Bow being the only ranged weapon for Stamina DPS.
Now lets take a look at Magicka DPS and their weapon choices:
Destruction Staff comes in two flavors, Single target and Area of Effect.
Some would argue that Dual Swords is still a thing, but realistically its only used on some Templars usually with Moondancer Swords.
As you can see, there is little variation on the Magicka DPS weapons, but it's not really that bad.
A large problem with Frost Staves being used for Tanking is that it is not at all obvious to new players. You will often find a new player taunting enemies not knowing what they are doing. A destruction staff is meant to cause destruction.
Tanks also didn't really adopt the Frost Staff tanking either, I have seen a few Tanks use it and only one had used it well. Most people don't want to lose their 5th piece bonus to use one. And you will pretty much never see an end game Tank use a Frost Staff in any content with one exception of Tanks using Crushing Shock on Dwemer Spheres in Halls of Fabrication, but that's still not common.
Lets consider changing the Frost Staff back to a DPS tool. Lets consider the possibilities it could do given the new passives the Fire and Lightning Staves have had recently.
Here is an idea I have come up with and would like to discuss with the community at large for the possible DPS version of a Frost Staff.
Having a Frost Staff equipped and a Destruction Staff ability slotted increases your Spell Critical by X% (Please insert mathematically balanced Spell Crit amount)
Enemies affected by the Chilled status effect will receive increased critical damage (reversed impenetrable)
Enemies in Wall of Ice with the Chilled status effect will be inflicted with Minor Breach and Minor Fracture for X seconds.
These new effects would make it a good idea to have at least one person in a Trial use a Frost Staff to help increase the amount of damage the group can do to enemies.
The Wall of Ice would allow for trash enemies to get Minor Breach and Minor Fracture. The Chilled status effect would work well with the recent nerf to Shadow and Crit in general.
It is important that when making this change that the values would be in balance with the other two types of Staves so as to not make Ice the only choice of Magicka DPS, but simply a good choice for including it in group planning.
TL;DR
Make Frost Staff DPS great (again?)
Edited by Metafae on August 22, 2017 2:53PM Two years ago I created a magic Nightblade with the idea of it being a Frost Mage, it didn't go so well. Now we have a class in the game that is meant to be a true Frost Mage, one to be in line with the Sorcerer's Storm Mage and the Dragon Knight's Fire Mage but the Frost Staff just isn't a DPS tool anymore.
Lets take a look at Stamina DPS and their weapon choices:
Dual Wielding comes in four flavors, Crit, Damage, Bleed and Penetration.
Two Handed comes in three flavors, Damage, Bleed and Penetration.
Bow being the only ranged weapon for Stamina DPS.
Now lets take a look at Magicka DPS and their weapon choices:
Destruction Staff comes in two flavors, Single target and Area of Effect.
Some would argue that Dual Swords is still a thing, but realistically its only used on some Templars usually with Moondancer Swords.
As you can see, there is little variation on the Magicka DPS weapons, but it's not really that bad.
A large problem with Frost Staves being used for Tanking is that it is not at all obvious to new players. You will often find a new player taunting enemies not knowing what they are doing. A destruction staff is meant to cause destruction.
Tanks also didn't really adopt the Frost Staff tanking either, I have seen a few Tanks use it and only one had used it well. Most people don't want to lose their 5th piece bonus to use one. And you will pretty much never see an end game Tank use a Frost Staff in any content with one exception of Tanks using Crushing Shock on Dwemer Spheres in Halls of Fabrication, but that's still not common.
Lets consider changing the Frost Staff back to a DPS tool. Lets consider the possibilities it could do given the new passives the Fire and Lightning Staves have had recently.
Here is an idea I have come up with and would like to discuss with the community at large for the possible DPS version of a Frost Staff.
Having a Frost Staff equipped and a Destruction Staff ability slotted increases your Spell Critical by X% (Please insert mathematically balanced Spell Crit amount)
Enemies affected by the Chilled status effect will receive increased critical damage (reversed impenetrable)
Enemies in Wall of Ice with the Chilled status effect will be inflicted with Minor Breach and Minor Fracture for X seconds.
These new effects would make it a good idea to have at least one person in a Trial use a Frost Staff to help increase the amount of damage the group can do to enemies.
The Wall of Ice would allow for trash enemies to get Minor Breach and Minor Fracture. The Chilled status effect would work well with the recent nerf to Shadow and Crit in general.
It is important that when making this change that the values would be in balance with the other two types of Staves so as to not make Ice the only choice of Magicka DPS, but simply a good choice for including it in group planning.
TL;DR
Make Frost Staff DPS great (again?)
9
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GreenhaloX✭✭✭✭✭
✭No.. a sorc with a frost staff is not a tank! Stop trying to pretend you are one. You're a sorc, so "please" be a sorc and not trying to tank. It's like an apple wanting to be an orange. Thank you and that is all..4 -
seedubsrun✭✭✭✭Yeah love it, great idea. Frost staff should cause destruction to the enemy, currently it both prevents destruction and also brings it upon you which is dumb. One of the missing pieces to the frost mage build that many many people want is a functional DPS frost staff1 -
Wrecking_Blow_Spam✭✭✭✭✭
✭GreenhaloX wrote: »No.. a sorc with a frost staff is not a tank! Stop trying to pretend you are one. You're a sorc, so "please" be a sorc and not trying to tank. It's like an apple wanting to be an orange. Thank you and that is all..
Clearly you read the postXbox one EU
8 Flawless conquerors on all class specs (4 stam, 4 magicka)
Doesn't stand in red2 -
bebynnag✭✭✭✭✭
✭GreenhaloX wrote: »No.. a sorc with a frost staff is not a tank! Stop trying to pretend you are one. You're a sorc, so "please" be a sorc and not trying to tank. It's like an apple wanting to be an orange. Thank you and that is all..
gonna guess you didnt read the post!1 -
Raraaku✭✭✭✭I still don't understand how an Ice Staff HA can be used to generate a taunt but not a single skill or attack in the 2H tree generates a taunt.... I love 2H weapons and really want to be able to tank with one, but I can't without undaunted. Even then, stigma and all that but I don't care, 2H is an awesome skill tree. Plus I like the way it feels to crush an enemy with a 2H warhammer. But that's off topic. But yes, it doesn't make much sense to me either, especially since one of my planned Warden healer/CC alts will be using an ice staff.Back from a much needed break. || I like having too many projects and working on them all at once.
Tank Enthusiast || CP: 445 || Stormproof
TanksKarsaak gro-Ursa: DC || Orc || Stamina Dragonknight || Tank || Level: CP 445
Sir Leopold Stotch: DC || Breton || Magicka Templar || Tank || Level: 445
Protects-Squishy-Ones: EP || Argonian || Magicka Sorcerer || Tank/CC || Level: CP 445
Björn Shadow-Walker: EP || Nord || Stamina Nightblade || Tank || Level: 15
Tiberius Valerion: AD || Imperial || Stamina Warden || Tank || Level: 15
Damage DealersMorrigan Ravyn-Cloak: AD || Altmer || Magicka Nightblade || DPS || Level: CP 445
Ra'Zahkara: AD || Khajiit || Stamina Dragonknight || DPS || Level: CP 445
Ezra al-Khazir: DC || Redguard || Stamina Templar || DPS || Level: 40
Erryndril Telvaux: EP || Dunmer || Magicka Dragonknight || DPS || Level: 25
Uzara gra-Khalari: DC || Orc || Stamina Nightblade || DPS [2H/DW] || Level: 15
Solomon Motierre: DC || Breton || Magicka Sorcerer || DPS || Level: 20
Ragnar the Wulf: EP || Nord || Stamina Warden || DPS || Level: 30
Ra'Rahku: AD || Khajiit || Stamina Nightblade || DPS [Bow/Bow] || Level: 15
HealersSees-through-Hist: EP || Argonian || Magicka Warden || Healer/CC || CP 445
Daedalus the Artificer: AD || Altmer || Magicka Templar || Healer || Level: 150 -
Zach2322✭✭✭I'd rather them keep it as a tanking tool, but expand on it to be competitive for trials. I actually found ice staff tanking easier on a nightblade than a S&b since morrowind's changes. I'm perfectly fine with losing my set bonus for my monster set since I don't see the ice staff ever going into a vet trial the way it is currently.
I do agree, however, that they they need to do something about showing that it is a tank tool for new players so they don't taunt away from the tank. It's kind of a given that a new player will either spam one skill until they run out of the resource to spam it or just light and heavy attack things while hitting a low instant damage skill with it.1 -
Metafae✭✭✭✭✭I forgot to mention:
Allowing Ice Staff to be used as a DPS tool will help close the gap between Magicka Wardens and the other Magicka Classes.
Last patch Magicka Warden was just really bad, this patch they are doing a little bit better, but they are still quite far behind the other Magicka Classes.
Helping Wardens get a little bit better without actually changing anything about the Warden Class itself.2 -
stevepdodson_ESO888✭✭✭✭✭
✭GreenhaloX wrote: »No.. a sorc with a frost staff is not a tank! Stop trying to pretend you are one. You're a sorc, so "please" be a sorc and not trying to tank. It's like an apple wanting to be an orange. Thank you and that is all..
incredible...you just saw the heading and jumped straight into your rant
try reading the post and you will see it is well thought out and has reasoned ideas and suggestions in it0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Skipped to the end since I was getting a review of stamina weapons instead of the ice staff.
The unfortunate reality (in this fantasy game) is Zos had the foresight to make ice staves tanking weapons just before adding a class that have a possible viable I've damage skill and of course had a few ice skills for tanking.
A catch 22. Zos has gotten used to passively admitting mistakes and often tries to correct them with more mistakes. However, usually takes a while for them to ge there.0 -
GreenhaloX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »No.. a sorc with a frost staff is not a tank! Stop trying to pretend you are one. You're a sorc, so "please" be a sorc and not trying to tank. It's like an apple wanting to be an orange. Thank you and that is all..
Clearly you read the post
Clearly, I had..stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »No.. a sorc with a frost staff is not a tank! Stop trying to pretend you are one. You're a sorc, so "please" be a sorc and not trying to tank. It's like an apple wanting to be an orange. Thank you and that is all..
incredible...you just saw the heading and jumped straight into your rant
try reading the post and you will see it is well thought out and has reasoned ideas and suggestions in it
Clearly, you're delusional if you see my comment has a rant.. and no way, clearly, is it towards the OP. A portion of the OP's comment ["A large problem with Frost Staves being used for Tanking is that it is not at all obvious to new players. You will often find a new player taunting enemies not knowing what they are doing."]; thus, my comment reflects a reply towards that. Did you not read that part?! Also, clearly, you're prematurely judging that I had just read the heading and dove in just on that. Whatever.. go play your game.0 -
Valestris✭✭o.O i use frost staff for tanking all the time and I do exceptionally well with it, why use sword n board which your main resource returns (IF you are mostly magicka focused abilities ofcourse) lets use magicka and restore stamina with my stupid sword n shield! makes sense LOL anyways, frost staff tanking isnt "bad" and ive done it in trials too without much issue when combined with inner range for taunting multiple adds especially in trials, and all dungeons as well up to current dlc.
Why they decided to MAKE it a taunting staff however I'm not 100% sure o.o but it's definitely not a change you'll find me complaining about, I love it. I also agree and did NOT realize it WAS a taunting staff with tri focus passive until about 2 months ago (want to use frost staff as a form of "dps" don't buy tri-focus passive) and I could see how a lot of new players could not realize they are taunting.Edited by Valestris on August 22, 2017 3:22PM2 -
emilyhyoyeon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I just posted this on another thread but I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately. I wonder if something like:
-shock is the highest upfront damage and is only AOE if it chains to close nearby players, never ticks as a DOT
-fire is the second most damage but only does more than shock over time, mainly functions as DOTs
-ice is the least damage but provides utility like slows/stuns, a lot of AOE
can be done to all elemental abilities. fire and shock would have to be reworked, I'm guessing, to make ice function as DPS. I'd prefer ice being more of a DPS tool because the destruction skill elements are traditionally all more or less DPS in the other TES gamesEdited by emilyhyoyeon on August 22, 2017 3:36PMIGN @ emilypumpkin, imperial pumpkin seller & ghost hunter
PC EU
main TES character: Tullanisse Starborne, altmer battlemage & ayleid researcher0 -
Demolitionary✭✭✭GreenhaloX wrote: »Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »No.. a sorc with a frost staff is not a tank! Stop trying to pretend you are one. You're a sorc, so "please" be a sorc and not trying to tank. It's like an apple wanting to be an orange. Thank you and that is all..
Clearly you read the post
Clearly, I had..stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »No.. a sorc with a frost staff is not a tank! Stop trying to pretend you are one. You're a sorc, so "please" be a sorc and not trying to tank. It's like an apple wanting to be an orange. Thank you and that is all..
incredible...you just saw the heading and jumped straight into your rant
try reading the post and you will see it is well thought out and has reasoned ideas and suggestions in it
Clearly, you're delusional if you see my comment has a rant.. and no way, clearly, is it towards the OP. A portion of the OP's comment ["A large problem with Frost Staves being used for Tanking is that it is not at all obvious to new players. You will often find a new player taunting enemies not knowing what they are doing."]; thus, my comment reflects a reply towards that. Did you not read that part?! Also, clearly, you're prematurely judging that I had just read the heading and dove in just on that. Whatever.. go play your game.
Actually, I think many people saw your post as a rant without reading what the OP said.
Also OP was pointing out not many people are aware that frost staves taunt as there isn't any clear indication on that. He didn't say that a Sorc should tank in any way actually, all classes can use a frost staff and the destro skills and passives. So is it really you that is "Delusional"?
I think OP has a point, very rare I see anyone using a frost staff, as, well, what benefit do you get?
Other than depleting Stam in PvP (Does that even apply in ESO? It applies in the ES games and part of the lore isn't it?) or the tanks that know how to use it in PvE. Otherwise never used as there ARE better options.0 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The frost staff can still be great dps tool, but unfortunately with the block costs its just not sustainable if you block animation cancel. I recently tried it with my warden using wall of elements and winters revenge together and it was great. Enemies were immobilized almost 100% of the time, but if you are getting pressured by multiple people and block animation cancel your magicka drops very quickly.
0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I actually really like your ideas! Minor Resist debuffs would create an alternative to PotL.
Using one Lightning Staff is always mandatory now (an exception being some DKs). The second staff can be a Lightning Staff for Off-Balance/Sorc passive DPS, Flame Staff for increased skill DPS/DK increased passive DPS, or Ice Staff for enemy debuffs.
Giving Ice Staff a focus on critical damage fits well thematically since ZOS has already pushed Ice Damage (poor Iceheart....) to focus on critical hits. This would also be a powerful buff that makes Ice Staves unique as well.
We can always hope
1 -
GreenhaloX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Demolitionary wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »No.. a sorc with a frost staff is not a tank! Stop trying to pretend you are one. You're a sorc, so "please" be a sorc and not trying to tank. It's like an apple wanting to be an orange. Thank you and that is all..
Clearly you read the post
Clearly, I had..stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »No.. a sorc with a frost staff is not a tank! Stop trying to pretend you are one. You're a sorc, so "please" be a sorc and not trying to tank. It's like an apple wanting to be an orange. Thank you and that is all..
incredible...you just saw the heading and jumped straight into your rant
try reading the post and you will see it is well thought out and has reasoned ideas and suggestions in it
Clearly, you're delusional if you see my comment has a rant.. and no way, clearly, is it towards the OP. A portion of the OP's comment ["A large problem with Frost Staves being used for Tanking is that it is not at all obvious to new players. You will often find a new player taunting enemies not knowing what they are doing."]; thus, my comment reflects a reply towards that. Did you not read that part?! Also, clearly, you're prematurely judging that I had just read the heading and dove in just on that. Whatever.. go play your game.
Actually, I think many people saw your post as a rant without reading what the OP said.
Also OP was pointing out not many people are aware that frost staves taunt as there isn't any clear indication on that. He didn't say that a Sorc should tank in any way actually, all classes can use a frost staff and the destro skills and passives. So is it really you that is "Delusional"?
I think OP has a point, very rare I see anyone using a frost staff, as, well, what benefit do you get?
Other than depleting Stam in PvP (Does that even apply in ESO? It applies in the ES games and part of the lore isn't it?) or the tanks that know how to use it in PvE. Otherwise never used as there ARE better options.
Nevermind.. Whether directly or indirectly referencing this thread piece, it was just a comment/reply, man. We're just going off on a tangent with this. Moving on here. Also, whether directly or indirectly in reference to this thread, just don't use a frost staff for tanking purpose. It is not right, man.Edited by GreenhaloX on August 22, 2017 8:40PM0 -
Tyrobag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭100% agree. Also very good suggestions on how to balance with the other staff types.
Nobody wanted frost tanking in the first place, and now we have wardens who would do well with a frost staff for dps.
@Wrobel I summon you!
Gaze upon this thread, for it is logic pure and true!
No one at all has frost tanked but you
Ice is for smashing, stabbing, and casting
It should not be useless for time everlasting
Never before was Ice for defense
But now we sit here in unending suspense
Hoping for the day that you will come to your senses
And return the frost staff to us DPSes
*mic drop*2 -
Inarre✭✭✭✭✭
✭100% agree. Also very good suggestions on how to balance with the other staff types.
Nobody wanted frost tanking in the first place, and now we have wardens who would do well with a frost staff for dps.
@Wrobel I summon you!
Gaze upon this thread, for it is logic pure and true!
No one at all has frost tanked but you
Ice is for smashing, stabbing, and casting
It should not be useless for time everlasting
Never before was Ice for defense
But now we sit here in unending suspense
Hoping for the day that you will come to your senses
And return the frost staff to us DPSes
*mic drop*
Beautiful piece, but not true. I have seen many and run an ice tank myself.0 -
Metafae✭✭✭✭✭I intend on setting up my Warden Tank Argonian with two Frost Staves and taking it through a variety of content ending with Veteran Maw of Lorkhaj.
I will make an entirely new post with my review of how it went, including the thoughts of my team members as to how it worked with the team as a whole.
Later I intend on making a post reviewing the Warden Class itself and where I think it works and what I think may need to adjusted.
As it is now, the class is great in a PvP setting, but may need some adjustments for PvE.Edited by Metafae on August 23, 2017 12:51AM0
