Lightning staff HA vs Inferno

SammyFable

Is there any particular reason, that fully charged Lightning heavy attacks restore about 1k more magicka than a fully charged Inferno heavy attack? Seeing it as it is, for a magicka build it is mandatory to use a heavy attack once per rotation to be able to sustain a fight with high DPS (NBs and DKs might have it a bit easier). @ZOS, why do you force us to use a lightning staff HA to sustain better, if we could also use an Inferno HA? Since channeled HAs are likely to cause a slow movement bug (solvable by either dodge rolling or another HA) it would be good to know, that there is no downside in using a different staff for HAs.
Not really complaining, but rather wanting to know why this is the case.

LMar

Isn't the lightning a bit slower?

SammyFable

Yeah like 0.1-0.2 secs.

Vaoh

Lightning HA takes a tiny bit more time to fully cast. It amounts to essentially the exact same amount of time as casting two active skills with light attack weaves.

Flame HA is just barely quicker.

AlMcFly

Aesthetically I would love to use an Inferno Staff on my offbar as a Healer. Currently ZOS has decided to make Lightning the superior utility choice in almost every way. It's not surprising. ZOS has ALWAYS done their best to pidgeonhole classes into specific cookie-cutter builds. In a game that advertises "play as you like", there sure are a lot of punishments for playing against class meta.

They could easily normalize the damage between the two staves, and allow Inferno to spread flames to adjacent enemies like Lightning does. But ZOS won't do this.

I've chosen to forget Frost Staff's existence.

Vaoh

AlMcFly wrote: »

I've chosen to forget Frost Staff's existence.

kojou

Vaoh wrote: »

Lightning HA takes a tiny bit more time to fully cast. It amounts to essentially the exact same amount of time as casting two active skills with light attack weaves.

Flame HA is just barely quicker.

Not only that but the animation for flame staff doesn't match the actual duration required for a "full" heavy attack. You need to learn the moment to cancel it by experimentation which sucks IMO. The animation should match the duration.

It has the advantage of being a higher single target heavy attack, but lightning will be better if there are multiple targets.

AlMcFly

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

It has the advantage of being a higher single target heavy attack, but lightning will be better if there are multiple targets.

And as we all know, the most difficult fights in the game almost ALWAYS involve multiple targets. The vast majority of single target Vet fights I know of are usually burned down before I finish two or three rotations (in a decent group of course).

I can't remember the last time I feared wiping on a single-target engagement XD

kojou

AlMcFly wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

It has the advantage of being a higher single target heavy attack, but lightning will be better if there are multiple targets.

And as we all know, the most difficult fights in the game almost ALWAYS involve multiple targets. The vast majority of single target Vet fights I know of are usually burned down before I finish two or three rotations (in a decent group of course).

I can't remember the last time I feared wiping on a single-target engagement XD

Agreed... most fights I am laying down ground DoTs, single target DoTs on a primary target then shock staff heavy attack... Don't you love this new dynamic meta?

seedubsrun

Lightning is AOE and Inferno is single target, I don't see what the big deal is. If they were both the same that would be boring and if they each did both that would be OP. Now Ice staff...ugh, I can't even. Worse than grandma's Christmas gifts. To OP, when you say you're getting back more magicka are you comparing magicka return on a single target for inferno and lightning? Cause i believe if you kill more than one person with a lightning staff you'll get more magicka returned

SammyFable

Vaoh wrote: »

Lightning HA takes a tiny bit more time to fully cast. It amounts to essentially the exact same amount of time as casting two active skills with light attack weaves.

Flame HA is just barely quicker.

Yep it's a very very tiny amount faster but it just shouldn't equal ~1000 more magicka return. This gives lightning HAs an average advantage of 80 Mag return/s against inferno HAs.

AlMcFly wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

It has the advantage of being a higher single target heavy attack, but lightning will be better if there are multiple targets.

And as we all know, the most difficult fights in the game almost ALWAYS involve multiple targets. The vast majority of single target Vet fights I know of are usually burned down before I finish two or three rotations (in a decent group of course).

I can't remember the last time I feared wiping on a single-target engagement XD

Most trial bosses will primarily be focused with your single target abilities. Even though there are only a couple true single target boss fights (mantikora in vSO, Storm atro in vAA) adds on a boss fight will most likely be burned down by all the ground/general aoe dots applied by a DD.

nnargun

I know the thread is a bit old but it makes me question my Inferno on front bar. Is it really the case that Lightning staff HAs restore more magicka than Inferno staff HAs? Looks like it since nobody is questioning it but does it actually say so somewhere?
That togehther with the splash damage would definitely make me drop my sweet new IA Inferno.

Edit: I'm aware I could just try it but I won't get the chance until Sunday so please help get rid of my nightmares about having to grind IA Lightning with PUGs.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

nnargun wrote: »

I know the thread is a bit old but it makes me question my Inferno on front bar. Is it really the case that Lightning staff HAs restore more magicka than Inferno staff HAs? Looks like it since nobody is questioning it but does it actually say so somewhere?
That togehther with the splash damage would definitely make me drop my sweet new IA Inferno.

Edit: I'm aware I could just try it but I won't get the chance until Sunday so please help get rid of my nightmares about having to grind IA Lightning with PUGs.

It really depends on your class, Inferno front bar for dk, NB, and warden, lightning for sorc and temp. Then you ought to have a lightning back bar for all of them, for the AOE bonus, and heavy attacks.

nnargun

Thank you but that doesn't really answer my question. I just want clarification on the resource restore matter. Is there a sorc specific passive for that I am missing?

edit: no, shouldn't be sorc specific.

edit2: Definitely no passive for that. Neither in sorc skills nor in destro skills. I kinda doubt that it's actually the case that Lightning HAs restore more mag than Inferno HAs.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@nnargun What are you asking? The way you are writing makes zero sense to me. If you are asking if lightning staff heavys return more magic, the short answer is yes. If you are asking why some classes still use a fire staff for their front bar, it is because of the spammable they use, is funnel health is a single target direct damage attack, so you want a fire staff. A temp uses a lightning staff front bar because sweeps is an AOE channel and benefits from the lightning passive.

All classes benefit from using the lightning staff in AOE and for doing heavys for magic when they need to.

nnargun

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@nnargun What are you asking? The way you are writing makes zero sense to me. If you are asking if lightning staff heavys return more magic, the short answer is yes. If you are asking why some classes still use a fire staff for their front bar, it is because of the spammable they use, is funnel health is a single target direct damage attack, so you want a fire staff. A temp uses a lightning staff front bar because sweeps is an AOE channel and benefits from the lightning passive.

All classes benefit from using the lightning staff in AOE and for doing heavys for magic when they need to.

How is it so hard to understand? There are only two very staright forward questions in my first post. 1. Do Lightning HAs restore more mag than Inferno HAs? 2. Where does it say so? You didn't answer either of those in your first reply.

Your short answer is exactly what I wanted to know and I think it's crystal clear from what I wrote. Ideally backed up with some evidence, though. I guess there should be a tool tip, patch notes, something at least stating this somewhere. If there is no such evidence, I'll go ahead and test it for myself on Sunday.

Another thing: If you cannot answer my posts without having in mind to spread poison I'd kindly ask you to move on.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Another thing: If you cannot answer my posts without having in mind to spread poison I'd kindly ask you to move on.

This is the kind of thing I mean, who talks like this. Spread poison? What do you mean by that? Looking through your post history, you are German, that has got to be the disconnect that I am experiencing.

Of course you would think you are right. Most people that are wrong, do.

On the subject of the game not giving a tooltip or some other way to tell how much you get back, welcome to ESO, where you can't even tell how much pen you have without an add-on. It is part of ZOSes design of the game that there are some things that are obscure.

Does it really matter exactly how much magic lightning gives?

SaintSubwayy

AlMcFly wrote: »

They could easily normalize the damage between the two staves, and allow Inferno to spread flames to adjacent enemies like Lightning does. But ZOS won't do this.

that would actually be pretty neat, like:

When the target is affected by the "burning" statuseffect, your heavyattacks deal 25% of their dmg to enemies nearby in a 5m radius.

Would be a nice buff to Flamestaff aoe DMG

SugaComa

I'd use a flame staff and ice if it had the same stream as the lightening and restro staff

But for return on magicka if you're not using destro abilities or even if you are maybe consider a restro staff ... They return even more

VaranisArano

On my Dunmer warden healer for group dungeons, I'm using a resto/lightning staff. I'd get a little bit of extra fire damage from Dunmer, but Lightning staff just gives me better utility for when I want to do damage. Between Concussed and Off-Balance, plus the aoe splash damage from the heavy attacks, I'm definitely preferring lightning on trash mobs and bosses with adds.

Betsararie

you use lightning for pve and inferno for pvp.

The inferno will have higher single target, whereas the lightning works as an aoe.

Jarryzzt

Different question slash angle to the OP's concerns.

Obviously, lightning HAs are channeled - that is, several damage packets are delivered over the HA animation - while inferno HAs are single-damage-packet at the end of the animation.

The reason I bring this up is because the next logical question is - is the magicka recovery component of lightning HA also broken up into several packets, just like damage, or is it all a "lump sum" at the end of the animation/timer? [Empirically it sometimes looked to me to be the case during a fight, but these were not scientific observations - trying to execute a 2-bar rotation while moving around on an old controller is not conducive to focusing on one's magicka bar except to notice when it's nearly empty.]

The point is, either both lightning and inferno HAs restore magicka as a "lump sum", or lightning HAs channel restore as well as channeling damage.

In the former case (both "lump sum"), the OP is quite right to wonder why one appears to restore significantly more than the other. A possible hypothesis is that, in balancing lightning vs. inferno staff as a whole (abilities, passives, etc.), ZOS felt lightning needed an extra buff and upped the restore. [And note that I am accepting the OP's assertion about the upped restore - obviously it would be nice if someone posted a video testing this on the DPS dummy or sum such to provide, quoting the NFL, "indisputable visual evidence".]

In the latter case (channeled restore on lightning HAs) - again, if this is actually how it works - it is easier to speculate that ZOS felt you needed more restore per packet to compensate for the possibility of an early interrupt (intentional or otherwise). Or something along those lines. Again, a balancing issue, of a kind.

Either way, if there is a meaningful difference in restore amounts, I highly doubt it's a bug, but rather a feature. So the point is to figure out the likely explanation for it. [And, again, a DPS dummy video showing the difference in restore amounts with/without gear, food, etc. and vs. actual number character stats would be highly useful in this regard.]

nnargun

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Another thing: If you cannot answer my posts without having in mind to spread poison I'd kindly ask you to move on.

This is the kind of thing I mean, who talks like this. Spread poison? What do you mean by that? Looking through your post history, you are German, that has got to be the disconnect that I am experiencing.

Of course you would think you are right. Most people that are wrong, do.

On the subject of the game not giving a tooltip or some other way to tell how much you get back, welcome to ESO, where you can't even tell how much pen you have without an add-on. It is part of ZOSes design of the game that there are some things that are obscure.

Does it really matter exactly how much magic lightning gives?

What exactly am I wrong about? The fact that you replied to my post without answering any of my questions? Or the fact that you got defensive in a rude way and later even insulting when I even thanked you kindly for that useless answer? Now it's my broken English? Does it give you the impression that I'm some dumb idiot you can talk down like that? Why don't you just stfu up when you can't contribute something relevant?

It's because you think you are very smart, don't you? Mostly people who are not, do.

I obviously care very much if and by what margin a Lightning staff restores more magicka on a fully charged HA than an Inferno staff. If you don't, maybe consider finding another topic you can participate in?

I'm outta here. Better to find out by myself.

SammyFable

Ok guys, since you necroed this thread:
@nnargun Yes the lightning HA DOES indeed give more magicka back, like I stated above it's about 1k. People stated it could be the case because lightning HAs are sightly slower than inferno HAs. And no, the game doesn't state that anywhere. The only reason for me to notice this, was testing my DPS on a dummy. For example with lightning HAs sustaining a 6mio dummy is perfectly doable, not so much with inferno HAs.
@Jarryzzt Lightning HAs do give the mag return with the last tick, so if you are interrupted, you don't get anything.

For all, I might do a video comparison.

nnargun

SammyFable wrote: »

Ok guys, since you necroed this thread:
@nnargun Yes the lightning HA DOES indeed give more magicka back, like I stated above it's about 1k. People stated it could be the case because lightning HAs are sightly slower than inferno HAs. And no, the game doesn't state that anywhere. The only reason for me to notice this, was testing my DPS on a dummy. For example with lightning HAs sustaining a 6mio dummy is perfectly doable, not so much with inferno HAs.
@Jarryzzt Lightning HAs do give the mag return with the last tick, so if you are interrupted, you don't get anything.

For all, I might do a video comparison.

Since you were so kind and took the time to reply.

Sorry for doubting you. I just had (and actually still have) a really hard time imagining why they would do this. I stumbled upon this thread while looking up some other destro staff related things and was pretty shocked about this. 1000 magicka difference seems huge. Many people, builds, guides recommend Inferno front and Lightning back without even mentioning this. Since HAs are usually performed on the front bar you lose access to a huge amount of magicka recovery using Inferno front, I assume. That, the splash damage, and the fact that Lightning HAs deal damage even if you get interrupted half way really make Inferno obsolete for my magsorc and I'll have to grind for the IA Lightning staff.

edit: When resources run low, is anybody able to pull more damage with a Inferno front than with a Lightning front with a self buffed magsorc? Multi target I guess not but even single target?

nnargun

I just had the chance to test. I get 3.4k magicka on an inferno HA and 4.0k on a lightning HA. Ice is similar to inferno.

edit: Note I only have like 30 points in tenacity. The absolute gap will ofc grow the more points I put in.

SammyFable

There is the video.

Jarryzzt

"This video is unavailable"? Am I the only one seeing that?

Caligamy_ESO

Jarryzzt wrote: »

"This video is unavailable"? Am I the only one seeing that?

lillybit

Jarryzzt wrote: »

Different question slash angle to the OP's concerns.

Obviously, lightning HAs are channeled - that is, several damage packets are delivered over the HA animation - while inferno HAs are single-damage-packet at the end of the animation.

The reason I bring this up is because the next logical question is - is the magicka recovery component of lightning HA also broken up into several packets, just like damage, or is it all a "lump sum" at the end of the animation/timer? [Empirically it sometimes looked to me to be the case during a fight, but these were not scientific observations - trying to execute a 2-bar rotation while moving around on an old controller is not conducive to focusing on one's magicka bar except to notice when it's nearly empty.]

The point is, either both lightning and inferno HAs restore magicka as a "lump sum", or lightning HAs channel restore as well as channeling damage.

In the former case (both "lump sum"), the OP is quite right to wonder why one appears to restore significantly more than the other. A possible hypothesis is that, in balancing lightning vs. inferno staff as a whole (abilities, passives, etc.), ZOS felt lightning needed an extra buff and upped the restore. [And note that I am accepting the OP's assertion about the upped restore - obviously it would be nice if someone posted a video testing this on the DPS dummy or sum such to provide, quoting the NFL, "indisputable visual evidence".]

In the latter case (channeled restore on lightning HAs) - again, if this is actually how it works - it is easier to speculate that ZOS felt you needed more restore per packet to compensate for the possibility of an early interrupt (intentional or otherwise). Or something along those lines. Again, a balancing issue, of a kind.

Either way, if there is a meaningful difference in restore amounts, I highly doubt it's a bug, but rather a feature. So the point is to figure out the likely explanation for it. [And, again, a DPS dummy video showing the difference in restore amounts with/without gear, food, etc. and vs. actual number character stats would be highly useful in this regard.]

The magicka restore on lightning staff is a lump sum at the end. That I can tell, there's no gain until the heavy attack is completed, which makes sense because only a fully charged heavy attack should restore anything